It's my experience that people are utterly brainwashed into consumption and work, work then consumption and on and on. No matter what I do, they don't get the message or get utterly upset and emotional about showing them the light. Then they start making personal comments (as most people do when challenged).
Next they complain incessantly about their work, the cost of living and so forth. In other situations they will assert that they love their jobs and couldn't imagine doing anything else. So sad.
I try to explain that we are rich by historical standards, but it does no good. If people could just avoid the trappings of greed, they could enjoy living like Kings of yesteryear.
I really do think that years of media has turned people into consumers. They are so braindead, they happily buy things from other people so as to serve the other person's need without seeing it this way. I really do think that people are happy being turned into slaves.
I tended to give people more credit in the past to withstand the influence of others in a big brother kind of way, but not anymore. I now see people as weak, as followers, as braindead. Even close friends seem to be totally useless, but as means to other people's end.
We living in such excess. All our needs can easily be met with little or not effort, and yet people are willing to trade most of their waking day to superfluous consumption. What's wrong with people? How do we get by not being able to relate to others? Conversations just get so strained when you can't relate to anyone else and I don't really feel like hanging out with the traditional lowlife unemployed person.
Brainwashing
It is like swallowing the red pill and waking up, seeing society in a different way. My neighbor asked me how I like his brand new Dodge Durango. This is the same guy who paid me $50 to fix his motorcycle but I had to wait two weeks before he had the money.
It's hard to find people who can relate, that's part of Jacob's motivation for the ERE city project.
It's hard to find people who can relate, that's part of Jacob's motivation for the ERE city project.
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jennypenny
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You can't really blame people. Following the herd was a useful survival skill for a long time. Let's face it--it still is. How many threads on the board are about not fitting in socially? We would all survive better socially if we were followers. Some of us pretend to conform to be accepted.
There is a lot to be gained by following our Dear Leader's example. But there are costs too, and they shouldn't be dismissed. It makes me sad to read about people here on the boards who worry about finding a partner because of their ERE beliefs.
Some people value social capital more than financial independence or self sufficiency. Maybe it brings them the same feelings of satisfaction that FI brings EREistas. If that's true, you can't blame them for following the crowd.
There is a lot to be gained by following our Dear Leader's example. But there are costs too, and they shouldn't be dismissed. It makes me sad to read about people here on the boards who worry about finding a partner because of their ERE beliefs.
Some people value social capital more than financial independence or self sufficiency. Maybe it brings them the same feelings of satisfaction that FI brings EREistas. If that's true, you can't blame them for following the crowd.
People are pretty weak and stupid in my opinion. They can't even listen to an opinion if it's not their own. Yeah for sure they are herders which helps a lot in predicting behaviour. I don't have a huge need to related to other people. I've just gotten used to pissing people off (now it's a sport). In fact, most people know me for it now and give me much more slack. I never really take their personal insults to heart because I know exactly where they're coming from. Using pure logic, my lifestyle is better than theirs. At some level I really do think they understand this, but their internal limitations prevent them from ever joining me. Yes followers, but never imagined people couldn't be rattle from their trends with logic. I suppose emotions are the only way to sway most people.
And I've always wondered if it's really better to have more people join me or not. I know having my family join me is a good thing...you know, because we are related, but having strangers? I'm not so sure. However, we did have a young volunteer group move in next door. It's part of a program where 11 teenage kids bike to do certain community projects. I'm now collecting their compost and they've given some of their share of veggies. I gave them some extra tomatoes and them some extra compost. I'm going to hand them down a plastic table and chairs so they can eat outdoors. So yeah, like-minded people are great to have around. The desolation of new subdivisions would be deafening mid-afternoon on a weekday and an utter zoo on the weekends.
And I've always wondered if it's really better to have more people join me or not. I know having my family join me is a good thing...you know, because we are related, but having strangers? I'm not so sure. However, we did have a young volunteer group move in next door. It's part of a program where 11 teenage kids bike to do certain community projects. I'm now collecting their compost and they've given some of their share of veggies. I gave them some extra tomatoes and them some extra compost. I'm going to hand them down a plastic table and chairs so they can eat outdoors. So yeah, like-minded people are great to have around. The desolation of new subdivisions would be deafening mid-afternoon on a weekday and an utter zoo on the weekends.
"Like cattle, with their eyes always looking down and their heads stooping to the earth, that is, to the dining-table, they fatten and feed and breed, and, in their excessive love of these delights, they kick and butt at one another with horns and hoofs which are made of iron; and they kill one another by reason of their insatiable lust.
'Verily, Socrates,' said Glaucon, 'you describe the life of the many like an oracle'.
...And if it were possible to lay hands on and to kill the man who tried to release them and lead them up, would they not kill him?'
'They certainly would,' he said." 517a The Republic
I always think of the allegory of the cave when this issue comes up. And I take Plato's advice to keep my mouth shut less I be killed.
Not that we're all necessarily virtuous and enlightened, and the consumers are all utter ignorant fools, but it can certainly feel that way sometimes.
'Verily, Socrates,' said Glaucon, 'you describe the life of the many like an oracle'.
...And if it were possible to lay hands on and to kill the man who tried to release them and lead them up, would they not kill him?'
'They certainly would,' he said." 517a The Republic
I always think of the allegory of the cave when this issue comes up. And I take Plato's advice to keep my mouth shut less I be killed.
Not that we're all necessarily virtuous and enlightened, and the consumers are all utter ignorant fools, but it can certainly feel that way sometimes.
At the end of the day we are all replicating the ideas of someone at some time in history. The main difference with many of us here is that we are THINKING about what is best for our future self and have the discipline to take steps in that direction.
The average "normal" person tries to emulate the celebrities and have a great desire to show how successful they are by displays on the material scoreboard, just as everyone loves to see the athlete out perform his rival in competition. This is all related to popularity and the success we have been brainwashed into thinking it will bring.
Trying to tell the average in-debt person to get "ahead" by not purchasing the nice things they have spent their life trying to acquire (for approval, often their own) is comical in that you will see just how far the brainwashing goes. Watch them bury their heads in sand if you try to explain the amount of discipline needed to get them on the other side of the cash flow. Their eyes will eventually glaze over when they realize it has nothing to do with self indulgence and lacks the ability to impress. Think how hard the average family would have to work just show a net worth of zero.
The most annoying part is that since the majority win the vote, we have to work extra hard providing tax money for the masses and will often find it harder to find a job once we quit because of the normal idea of constant work.
The average "normal" person tries to emulate the celebrities and have a great desire to show how successful they are by displays on the material scoreboard, just as everyone loves to see the athlete out perform his rival in competition. This is all related to popularity and the success we have been brainwashed into thinking it will bring.
Trying to tell the average in-debt person to get "ahead" by not purchasing the nice things they have spent their life trying to acquire (for approval, often their own) is comical in that you will see just how far the brainwashing goes. Watch them bury their heads in sand if you try to explain the amount of discipline needed to get them on the other side of the cash flow. Their eyes will eventually glaze over when they realize it has nothing to do with self indulgence and lacks the ability to impress. Think how hard the average family would have to work just show a net worth of zero.
The most annoying part is that since the majority win the vote, we have to work extra hard providing tax money for the masses and will often find it harder to find a job once we quit because of the normal idea of constant work.
Why wash brains when a light rinse will do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJPlebkfjM
"I’m listening to what you’re saying but I only hear what I want to."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJPlebkfjM
"I’m listening to what you’re saying but I only hear what I want to."
How do we get by not being able to relate to others?
The existence of this forum demonstrates that some like-minded people exist.
How about this strategy: relate to *parts* of people.
You might have a friend who is a hippie that you can relate to about anti-consumerism and the environment, but not about responsibility or investments.
You might have a different friend who is a business owner that you can relate to about capitalism and investing, but not materialistic status seeking.
Focus on similarities.
Also don't look for relateable people in normal places.
(And while I'm being preachy, you might want to give up trying to change people so aggressively. It's unlikely to be effective, and it will drive the people that you can relate to away.)
The existence of this forum demonstrates that some like-minded people exist.
How about this strategy: relate to *parts* of people.
You might have a friend who is a hippie that you can relate to about anti-consumerism and the environment, but not about responsibility or investments.
You might have a different friend who is a business owner that you can relate to about capitalism and investing, but not materialistic status seeking.
Focus on similarities.
Also don't look for relateable people in normal places.
(And while I'm being preachy, you might want to give up trying to change people so aggressively. It's unlikely to be effective, and it will drive the people that you can relate to away.)
Query: what temperament was kiersey? What type were Meyers and Briggs? How does this affect their characterizations? Discuss.
I think Some of you need to recognize that different people have different goals. One is not necessarily better than the other. I think i alluded to this in another thread: For personality types that crave social interaction, attain self-image from society, etc., certain lifestyles might not be a fit. While I may be happy living like a hermit, someone else might become suicidally depressed. Just because ere fits my goals doesn't make it right for others. I think this point is one of the real "ethics of ere" issues-- you can lead a horse to water, but if you FORCE him to drink against his will, you are a tyrant.
I think Some of you need to recognize that different people have different goals. One is not necessarily better than the other. I think i alluded to this in another thread: For personality types that crave social interaction, attain self-image from society, etc., certain lifestyles might not be a fit. While I may be happy living like a hermit, someone else might become suicidally depressed. Just because ere fits my goals doesn't make it right for others. I think this point is one of the real "ethics of ere" issues-- you can lead a horse to water, but if you FORCE him to drink against his will, you are a tyrant.
@dragoncar
I agree the ideal is live and let live, and there is more than one answer for many life's questions. However, we aren't the ones who need to be lectured. We aren't the ones forcing anyone to live like a hermit. We are the ones forced to make inane small talk and if we just want to be quiet are assumed to be either stupid, shy, or an ass. We lose out on promotions, money, etc. because we don't go to a happy hour on Thursday night for mind numbing conversation after our mind numbing job. Personally, I say screw'em. I know that's the wrong attitude, but I'm always adapting to them. It wouldn't hurt them to adapt to me now and then.
I do believe some of the traits are better than others. A few more rational politicians would help stabilize the "crazy" we are in, but that's not what the system encourages.
I agree the ideal is live and let live, and there is more than one answer for many life's questions. However, we aren't the ones who need to be lectured. We aren't the ones forcing anyone to live like a hermit. We are the ones forced to make inane small talk and if we just want to be quiet are assumed to be either stupid, shy, or an ass. We lose out on promotions, money, etc. because we don't go to a happy hour on Thursday night for mind numbing conversation after our mind numbing job. Personally, I say screw'em. I know that's the wrong attitude, but I'm always adapting to them. It wouldn't hurt them to adapt to me now and then.
I do believe some of the traits are better than others. A few more rational politicians would help stabilize the "crazy" we are in, but that's not what the system encourages.
What drives me bananas is all the complaining I have to listen to from people with broken systems. When I offer up an easy solution, it gets rebuffed as impossible. It's pretty hard for me not to want to offer solutions and fixes when it's plainly obvious.
I'm in a debate with a girl who has to go back to work to pay for her shit and send her 1.5 year old girl to daycare. Now she'll only see her for 2 hours per day and she's upset. When I say she should cut her expenses so told me to "fuck off." LOL. I'm not hurt, pissing people off is a bit of a sport because like Chad I'm growing tired of walking on egg shells.
Actually my mom is starting to get it and so is my younger sister. Now when I say something my sister qualifies it "just look at it as a fact, without emotions, can you see his point." LOL! I found that amusing.
I'm in a debate with a girl who has to go back to work to pay for her shit and send her 1.5 year old girl to daycare. Now she'll only see her for 2 hours per day and she's upset. When I say she should cut her expenses so told me to "fuck off." LOL. I'm not hurt, pissing people off is a bit of a sport because like Chad I'm growing tired of walking on egg shells.
Actually my mom is starting to get it and so is my younger sister. Now when I say something my sister qualifies it "just look at it as a fact, without emotions, can you see his point." LOL! I found that amusing.
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jacob
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The problem is that the act of thinking is hard. It's just like working out. 95% of everybody would prefer the easy work out [for the same results]. Only 5% will do the hard workout just for the hell of it, you know, the crossfitters. Thinking is the same way. The brain burns 20-25% of the body's glucose. When I have to think about things I don't normally think about such as structuring INVBOOK or providing an answer to "what have I done lately", the brain will need to burn extra glucose to run the neurons and establish connections that are normally not there. Thinking thoughts, which are original to you, equals connecting neurons and connecting neurons is work and 95% of people prefer to avoid this.
There's probably an evolutionary explanation for this having to do with risk control.
Fun fact: People with higher IQs are able to bring more glucose to the brain and are thus capable of entertaining/building more pathways. It's the mental equivalent of having a muscle that can take up more oxygen.
Of course this only means that change is hard. If people grew up with an ERE mentality, it wouldn't be hard at all.
There's probably an evolutionary explanation for this having to do with risk control.
Fun fact: People with higher IQs are able to bring more glucose to the brain and are thus capable of entertaining/building more pathways. It's the mental equivalent of having a muscle that can take up more oxygen.
Of course this only means that change is hard. If people grew up with an ERE mentality, it wouldn't be hard at all.
What type were Meyers and Briggs? How does this affect their characterizations? Discuss.
I'm intrigued to learn that Kiersey and Meyers are both IN**. I've noticed that IN** are the people who really take to the MBTI. I guess that makes sense given that I and N are the two rare traits, thus MBTI is more explanatory for IN**.
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It's pretty hard for me not to want to offer solutions and fixes when it's plainly obvious.
I have the same instinctive reaction, and indeed, I only mention my personal challenges to other people when I want their help coming up with a solution.
So you can imagine my surprise when I learned that other people complain for an *entirely* different reason. They don't want answers or suggestions. They want empathy. They want validation! They want to be heard and told that their feelings and emotions are an appropriate response for their situation... and that's all they want (while complaining).
There is a great book on this phenomenon called Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus.
I have to continually remind myself about this because it's so unnatural for me.
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Not to get too meta but I just noticed in this thread that:
1) you're complaining (about these brainwashed people)
2) other people are validating (by agreeing with your observations and sympathizing)
3) I'm stubbornly trying to offer solutions (only addressing the part about struggles to relate to people)
I'm intrigued to learn that Kiersey and Meyers are both IN**. I've noticed that IN** are the people who really take to the MBTI. I guess that makes sense given that I and N are the two rare traits, thus MBTI is more explanatory for IN**.
===
It's pretty hard for me not to want to offer solutions and fixes when it's plainly obvious.
I have the same instinctive reaction, and indeed, I only mention my personal challenges to other people when I want their help coming up with a solution.
So you can imagine my surprise when I learned that other people complain for an *entirely* different reason. They don't want answers or suggestions. They want empathy. They want validation! They want to be heard and told that their feelings and emotions are an appropriate response for their situation... and that's all they want (while complaining).
There is a great book on this phenomenon called Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus.
I have to continually remind myself about this because it's so unnatural for me.
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Not to get too meta but I just noticed in this thread that:
1) you're complaining (about these brainwashed people)
2) other people are validating (by agreeing with your observations and sympathizing)
3) I'm stubbornly trying to offer solutions (only addressing the part about struggles to relate to people)
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jacob
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This, of course, can also be turned around. We may have above-average foresight or insight into problems, but we aren't very good at salesmanship.
It is easy to conclude that someone who isn't "buying your version" must have been brainwashed into the other version.
This comparison isn't entirely fair though. You're one person selling against an entire culture of selling.
It is easy to conclude that someone who isn't "buying your version" must have been brainwashed into the other version.
This comparison isn't entirely fair though. You're one person selling against an entire culture of selling.
You could also argue that IN's like the MBTI because they like to think about stuff and most of the others don't.
The others probably don't like to read that they don't like to think about stuff either, which is what the MBTI tells them.
"They want empathy. They want validation!"
Unfortunately, they want validation and empathy on problems that are solvable and fairly easily solvable for the most part. It's not coming from most of us and neither should it come from us...or anyone.
The others probably don't like to read that they don't like to think about stuff either, which is what the MBTI tells them.
"They want empathy. They want validation!"
Unfortunately, they want validation and empathy on problems that are solvable and fairly easily solvable for the most part. It's not coming from most of us and neither should it come from us...or anyone.
@akratic
WRT the problem solving response versus the empathetic reponse, that's a big reason why I decided to leave the path to priesthood as a friar. I kept trying to solve peoples' problems. The more they wanted me to validate their feelings and share their (often needless) pain, the more I resisted and countered with logic. Epic fail on my part! [Meta: I am, ironically, validating your sense of this dichotomy. Maybe this is one matrix that cannot be escaped.]
WRT the problem solving response versus the empathetic reponse, that's a big reason why I decided to leave the path to priesthood as a friar. I kept trying to solve peoples' problems. The more they wanted me to validate their feelings and share their (often needless) pain, the more I resisted and countered with logic. Epic fail on my part! [Meta: I am, ironically, validating your sense of this dichotomy. Maybe this is one matrix that cannot be escaped.]