Chad, please give me an example of a concrete solvable problem.
You'll probably say something like "My bills are too high".
Are you sure you got the problem statement right? Maybe the problem is really:
"they want validation and empathy"
In that case, have you really solved their problem? The answer is no. You solved the problem as you wanted to define it, not as the person you were trying to help has defined it.
Brainwashing
I did get the problem statement right, as I don't give a shit if they have a "validation and empathy" problem, which really isn't a problem anyway. As I stated earlier, I do think some of the traits are better than others and this "validation" problem is one of the side effects of one of the traits that isn't as valuable as others.
You are basing the problem statement on what you do/do not give a shit about? This sounds like you are solving your own problems, not those of other people.
By the way, your problem is completely solvable. If you don't like living in this society dominated by Guardians, then just leave. Swim out to sea, and you will no longer have to deal with Guardians. Oh, does that solution not fit your problem statement? I don't give a shit. It's not my problem if you have a "surviving adrift in the open sea" problem.
By the way, your problem is completely solvable. If you don't like living in this society dominated by Guardians, then just leave. Swim out to sea, and you will no longer have to deal with Guardians. Oh, does that solution not fit your problem statement? I don't give a shit. It's not my problem if you have a "surviving adrift in the open sea" problem.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig." -- Robert Heinlein
People will come to this when (and if) they are ready, which may or may not happen. Then you will say, "I'm glad you came. Let me show you what I know."
Until then you might say or sing: "Oh! ye'll take the high road and I'll take the low road, And I'll be in Scotland afore ye." -- Loch Lomond (Where Scotland symbolizes a paradise)
People will come to this when (and if) they are ready, which may or may not happen. Then you will say, "I'm glad you came. Let me show you what I know."
Until then you might say or sing: "Oh! ye'll take the high road and I'll take the low road, And I'll be in Scotland afore ye." -- Loch Lomond (Where Scotland symbolizes a paradise)
Over time, I've gotten better at letting matters pass (as firefighterjeff said) for acquaintances and casual friends. This makes it easier to get along, and it tends to avoid the "someone is WRONG on the internet" syndrome (http://xkcd.com/386/ ).
This change came about primarily, because I realized I don't really care about those people. If they think that drinking Mountain Dew will reduce their sperm count, well I guess they won't drink Mountain Dew. Oh well.
But it's different for the people I really care about -- close friends and family. In that case, I find it much harder not to speak up when I see some engage in some folly (whatever it may be).
This change came about primarily, because I realized I don't really care about those people. If they think that drinking Mountain Dew will reduce their sperm count, well I guess they won't drink Mountain Dew. Oh well.
But it's different for the people I really care about -- close friends and family. In that case, I find it much harder not to speak up when I see some engage in some folly (whatever it may be).
If asked I will give my opinion, I will say my piece on something. If I see someone roll their eyes at it, so be it.
If given advice on small matters, I always thank the person giving it. I close the conversation by saying I am one of the biggest users of advice-- "I use all the advice that I ASK for". Each person has been placed on this earth individually. All are created equal under the law. Some people can process the hurdles they must to succeed, some will have "baggage" that prevent them having a fair shot at it. The point is that everyone has a right to make his/her own suppositions on what to do and not to do. Everyone has the right to gather information towards a topic, subject, or problem, and make their own decisions on the way to proceed.
Some people out there feel they have been given a task to "show" others how and what they should do. This is the type of person you have seen who would arrogantly "elbow" someone out of the way and tell them "Here, let me show you how to do this". This type of person and myself would last about 2 seconds before the fur flew. Everyone has the individual right to try, win, lose, or fail in their own right. I have asked people to explain something to me or show me something and have greatly appreciated them taking the time to do so.
If asked (emphasis on "if asked") I will make every effort to assist someone anyway I can. If they use my info, fine, if not, fine. No harm done. BUT, I would never dominate someone or elbow them out of the way to demonstrate "here numbnuts, this is how you do it."
If given advice on small matters, I always thank the person giving it. I close the conversation by saying I am one of the biggest users of advice-- "I use all the advice that I ASK for". Each person has been placed on this earth individually. All are created equal under the law. Some people can process the hurdles they must to succeed, some will have "baggage" that prevent them having a fair shot at it. The point is that everyone has a right to make his/her own suppositions on what to do and not to do. Everyone has the right to gather information towards a topic, subject, or problem, and make their own decisions on the way to proceed.
Some people out there feel they have been given a task to "show" others how and what they should do. This is the type of person you have seen who would arrogantly "elbow" someone out of the way and tell them "Here, let me show you how to do this". This type of person and myself would last about 2 seconds before the fur flew. Everyone has the individual right to try, win, lose, or fail in their own right. I have asked people to explain something to me or show me something and have greatly appreciated them taking the time to do so.
If asked (emphasis on "if asked") I will make every effort to assist someone anyway I can. If they use my info, fine, if not, fine. No harm done. BUT, I would never dominate someone or elbow them out of the way to demonstrate "here numbnuts, this is how you do it."
@ ChrisL- regarding your friend who put their child in daycare. I agree with what you said. However, in my case, the useless expenses weren't the issue, it was the worry I couldn't get over. Worry that my husband would lose his job and he wouldn't be able to find another one (no matter that we could survive quite fine for a long time). I dunno, I think it's my nature to worry and think about contingency plans for the worst case scenario. In this case, keeping a well paying job was the best option in my mind.
I do think that some people would rather just have the expensive house/car though.
I do think that some people would rather just have the expensive house/car though.
@Chris L
It goes beyond brainwashing. It includes intimidation. From birth, we are intimidated and held accountable to perform to a standard by society. We must earn at least a passing grade in school. We must find a job. We must earn our way. We must conform or we are "punished" by all our mentors and elders and betters. Punished by being bullied in school if we don't hold a certain standard, whatever you take that to be. Punished if we can't or won't conform on the job. Punished if we can't or won't perform up to the expectations of our peers. We must always perform. Perform in some expected way. Conform in some expected way. Some folks thrive on it, some reject it. Some find "another" way, their own chosen way. Brainwashing comes in many forms.
At work, your a low performer if your a salesman not making your quota. Many factors can effect the sales situation, but your a low performer if yours are not up to the others. Your punished by your boss with a "critique". A low performance rating. I worked for Sears Roebuck for a while. In the appliance department (big ticket they called it) it was common practice to fire the low producing salesman if he/she was low person two quarters in a row. This made the five salespeople in that department chew each other up to keep their job. This is only one example of brainwashing and intimidation.
The good news is that with a high level of "want to" all this can be conquered. That is a lot of the ERE mentality.
Finding a better way!!!
It goes beyond brainwashing. It includes intimidation. From birth, we are intimidated and held accountable to perform to a standard by society. We must earn at least a passing grade in school. We must find a job. We must earn our way. We must conform or we are "punished" by all our mentors and elders and betters. Punished by being bullied in school if we don't hold a certain standard, whatever you take that to be. Punished if we can't or won't conform on the job. Punished if we can't or won't perform up to the expectations of our peers. We must always perform. Perform in some expected way. Conform in some expected way. Some folks thrive on it, some reject it. Some find "another" way, their own chosen way. Brainwashing comes in many forms.
At work, your a low performer if your a salesman not making your quota. Many factors can effect the sales situation, but your a low performer if yours are not up to the others. Your punished by your boss with a "critique". A low performance rating. I worked for Sears Roebuck for a while. In the appliance department (big ticket they called it) it was common practice to fire the low producing salesman if he/she was low person two quarters in a row. This made the five salespeople in that department chew each other up to keep their job. This is only one example of brainwashing and intimidation.
The good news is that with a high level of "want to" all this can be conquered. That is a lot of the ERE mentality.
Finding a better way!!!
Awesome thread. And I do realize it's a mistake to force solutions on other people and even expect other people to take them, hence my presentation as solutions as a sport to me. A bit devious, but so be it. I'm pretty tired of validating other people's feelings of problems that are (semi) easily solved. I also expect other people to find my sport particularly annoying; hence the game. If people refuse to pay, then neither do I. However, as mentioned it's rather difficult to resist this game when it's thrust on you in attempt to gain sympathy. I mean, really, you're asking the wrong person. Thankfully, when a real solution is thought in my family, I'm the first person called upon. This is refreshing. Often though, it's correct to say that validation is sought. I'll keep this in mind more often....try at least.
@dragoncar
Don't get all worked up. I didn't swear at you. I swore to empahsize how much I don't care about that type of "problem."
"You'll probably say something like "My bills are too high".
Are you sure you got the problem statement right? Maybe the problem is really: 'they want validation and empathy'"
Using that example, I would say their problem is that they don't know what their true problem is. I wouldn't try and help them, I would just ignore them.
And, thanks for suggesting suicide, but I think there are better solutoins.
Don't get all worked up. I didn't swear at you. I swore to empahsize how much I don't care about that type of "problem."
"You'll probably say something like "My bills are too high".
Are you sure you got the problem statement right? Maybe the problem is really: 'they want validation and empathy'"
Using that example, I would say their problem is that they don't know what their true problem is. I wouldn't try and help them, I would just ignore them.
And, thanks for suggesting suicide, but I think there are better solutoins.
Ah, the joy of hearing from kindred spirits. Just don't go too far with the idea that the financial markets exist to make you independent of the system. Always remember they are the ones peddling the junk that keeps people in chains and they will peddle us financial garbage if we are not vigilant.
Financial garbage: managed mutual funds with expense ratios over .5%, corporate bonds, mutual funds that invest in Treasury securities (buy them direct). Remember Bernie Madoff!
Financial garbage: managed mutual funds with expense ratios over .5%, corporate bonds, mutual funds that invest in Treasury securities (buy them direct). Remember Bernie Madoff!