Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

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Alphaville
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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:17 am
Fortunately for my peace of mind I share none of your misgivings surrounding Trump. I think the vast majority of the 74M that voted for him will quickly move on with life. That's the thing with conservatives that people discount--on the whole they support the Constitutional system and now that the College has met/voted, Biden will be their president. Many aren't thrilled about that. A few might support Trump if he were to opt to run again.
i think it's a mischaracterization to paint all trump voters with the same brush, i.e., as "conservative."

while obviously many conservatives voted for trump, for any number of reasons, also many other conservatives voted against him and organized against him because they didn't see him as a true conservative and felt he was a threat to the rule of law and the constitution. e.g. see: https://lincolnproject.us/ see also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... l_campaign

because of this generalization i think you're failing to notice or acknowledge the existence of a significant sector of trump voters who are "right wing" and authoritarian/antidemocratic rather than american style conservative, ie., willing to bend the laws and institutions to carry out their will. and it's a significant number of people who are elevating an individual (trump) over principles (democracy, rule of law, etc).

i understand there is also an anarchist fringe on the left, which maybe wants things done their way, but they are few, hold no sway, and have not hijacked the democratic party for their own ends. so whataboutisms do not apply here--those people are truly insignificant.

trumpism, on the other hand, is serious business, and a significant political force that is destroying conservatism from within. whether one wants to admit its existence or not doesn't make a difference in the actual risk this objectively presents to the country. just like denying the existence climate change doesn't stop giant icebergs from breaking off antarctica and drifting into the south atlantic.

trumpism is not conservatism: it's a cult of personality with dangerous implications, and it's not going away. and many actual conservatives think the same. eg here's one republican on the road to damascus: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... ump-397918

i really hope you're right in your prediction, but i wouldn't count on it for a moment. sure, it's possible, but not highly likely, that trumpism could disappear after the inauguration. but i think trumpism will most likely go on, causing more damage.

still for all our sakes i hope i'm wrong and you're right.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by jacob »

Sticking with the topic at hand, that is, the implications of a potential TNN on some individuals ...

"Fox News Brain" (I think that's the common term?) in which individuals get lost to the rest of the family, friends, (or online forums) after going down the rabbit hole pursuing alternate narratives will continue to have an impact on those relations. When two narratives come with their own sets of facts and frameworks, it's very hard to find common ground. It's especially problematic insofar one has adopted a bunch of polarizing talking points that piss off people in other bubbles just by mentioning them. A consequence of TNN would thus be people estranged from their family and friends. This is not something that happens automatically but it is a lot of effort to try to prevent it since one has to rise above the polarization and find some other way to connect. It's easier to just give up.

These are the social consequences ...

The problem with having siloed narratives, many of which are increasingly factually wrong (<= not in accordance with reality), and the inability to distinguish opinion from fact or analyze the situation/source due to lack of [critical analysis] education is that it makes it harder to make correct choices. It's often possible for someone to support politics that are against their own interests because the consequences are so indirect as to require the ability for objective analysis which happens to be missing and unobtainable due to an insistence on "lived experience". But not always. Sometimes the consequences are direct. For example, researchers have found cases/death numbers for COVID in a given US county correlate with the degree of Trump/Clinton support in 2016. It sometimes matters to one's survival (financial, health, whatever,...) whether what one believes is factually true. In short, lying (disinformation) or bullshitting (flooding the zone with misinformation) sometimes has real life consequences.

Now, the question is since we've already had these alternate narrative bubbles exist for many years, will they get worse? That is, will they grow organically or inorganically. Will they grow bigger? Trump's approval rating has remained incredibly consistent between 35-40% over the past four years. Will it grow or will it shrink?

I think it will shrink. Part of Trump's kayfabe and attraction for his followers was to watch him thumb the establishment. Trump is a counter-puncher and a populist. However, insofar your guiding governing philosophy is mostly based on "being against the establishment" and "pwning the libtards" online, it doesn't work very well once those "libtards" or the establishment are no longer paying attention once they're no longer compelled come January 20th. Counter-punchers are not fun to watch if they're not being engaged. Speaking of twitter---yes, it will be very interesting to see how fast Trump gets hit with TOS violations once he loses his protected status; I'd hate to be in Jack Dorsey's shoes these months---a few weeks ago, the right wing on twitter decided they had enough of the censorship and decided to move to Parler. Only, the left wing didn't move along and without a ready and willing population of "libtards to pwn" they found they really didn't have much to say to each other. "Being against" is not a great foundation for a governing philosophy.

Thus when Trump is no longer president, the establishment once again has the chance to just ignore him and I think they'll do just that. This is what happened in much of Europe in the early 2010s when several countries did their own brief experiment with national populism following the Great Financial Crisis. Only a few managed to stick around (Hungary and Poland) but the rest got voted out as sudden as they got voted in.

In short, I think individuals will have the choice to either ignore Trump almost entirely or to go down the rabbit hole and mainline Trumpism 100% and that between the two there will be a gap causing the already strained ability to have civil discourse. What's more interesting are the people who do not have that luxury of choice, the GOP.

I recommend this:
https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Decay-Expl ... 0798MNSQL/

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:11 am
I think it will shrink. Part of Trump's kayfabe and attraction for his followers was to watch him thumb the establishment. Trump is a counter-puncher and a populist.
I hope you are right, but history repeats and the parallels are striking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by IlliniDave »

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:53 am
i think it's a mischaracterization to paint all trump voters with the same brush, i.e., as "conservative."
...

i really hope you're right in your prediction, but i wouldn't count on it for a moment. sure, it's possible, but not highly likely, that trumpism could disappear after the inauguration. but i think trumpism will most likely go on, causing more damage.

still for all our sakes i hope i'm wrong and you're right.
I didn't mean to imply only conservatives supported Trump, or all conservatives supported Trump. Or that all Republicans are conservatives or all conservatives are Republican. But I'd be surprised if conservatives didn't make up the large preponderance of Trump votes.

That Trump probably won't go away quietly is one of the first things I said upthread. I just didn't think he was going to to go into the media business.

I guess we'll see what happens. Still think there are far more important things to worry about than Trump once he's former President Trump.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

IlliniDave wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:56 pm
I guess we'll see what happens.
yeah, that's all we can do. nobody here is a fortune teller. all we can do is outline possible scenarios, per the op's request.

i try to observe, keep an open mind, and assign probabilities to each case-- then prep accordingly. then adjust scenarios and probabilities as i go. nothing personal to it.

and again, i hope the scenario i presented never comes true. i just cant unsee it right now.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by IlliniDave »

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:24 pm
... i just cant unsee it right now.
Perspective's the tricky thing. For now my view is from geographically inside one of Trumps's strongest areas of support. It's pretty tranquil and people are mostly just looking forward to getting past covid and trying to figure out how to get through the longer-term economic impact of it with higher federal tax burdens. They worry somewhat about unrest from the West Coast and northern cities spreading to them, but it's a vague and distant worry.

That's not to say there will be a widespread embrace of modern US progressivism around here. They'll continue to oppose it at the voting booth.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

IlliniDave wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:32 am
Perspective's the tricky thing.
oh, right. i'm looking at trump's twitter right now :lol:

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave:

It doesn't seem as tranquil from my spot here in deep purple (extreme red/blue checkerboard.) For instance, the primary care physician I recently acquired in a red county actually said something like "So, you aren't one of those liberal anti-vaxxers?" when I inquired about whether he could get me on the "high risk" list (if there is such a thing.) I can't even imagine how he pegged me as "liberal" except maybe on basis of last known address on my medical records or maybe insufficient attention to shaving my legs (which really has more to do with "lazy" than "liberal" in my case :lol: )

Anyways, I have decided that I am going to exert zero more personal energy in attempt to reconcile red friends/family with blue friends/family. From now on I simply will not invite or visit any of them at same place/same time. I may be wrong, but the reason why I don't think this division is going to result in something like civil war is that it is so skewed in terms of generation and gender. So, if it wasn't time of Covid, and I was going to plan two different holiday gatherings and wished to keep political discord to a minimum, I wouldn't even have to consider red vs blue; I could just divide my guests into older male vs younger female and that would almost certainly be good enough. IMO, an unfortunate major effect of this schism combined with aging of general population is that it is going to lead to serious increase in already high suicide rate among older men due to increased isolation.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by subgard »

Trump craves attention above all else. Even above money and power, as those things are just a means to his more desired end - attention.

The only narrative he cares about controlling is about himself. At first glance, he might want to control an entire news network, imagining being able to get on any of the shows at any time, to get attention for himself. But, I don't think the network would be very successful, just like most of his business ventures are unsuccessful monetarily, but successful at getting attention for the man whose name is emblazoned all over them.

For over five years Trump has leveraged the power of being a presidential candidate and of being the actual president into his most treasured commodity - attention for himself.

The move that would get him the most attention would be to continue seeking powerful public office, as people pay attention to (perceived) power. Running a 4 year re-election campaign for 2024 would likely get him the most attention.

Running a news network requires you to focus on people and events other than yourself, and I just can't imagine Trump doing that. Look at how uncomfortable and bored he appears when other people are speaking, and you get a glimpse into the gnawing addiction which consumes his being.

I've actually thought a good movie about Trump would be one where Trump is the protagonist who the audience sympathizes with in his desire for more attention. The movie would skim over all the policy, even his bad behavior, and make the viewer want the hero to have the attention he so greatly desires.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by IlliniDave »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:30 am
oh, right. i'm looking at trump's twitter right now :lol:
Maybe that's your mistake. :D I don't think many folks around here do that.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

IlliniDave wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:33 am
Maybe that's your mistake. :D I don't think many folks around here do that.
folks around here are a tiny minority and we won't influence the herd. but one has to watch the herd. the mistake is to bury one's head under the sand,

i know some "smart" people plus a few stupid ones who have gone full qanon, and i want to see what kool-aid they're drinking.

as op put it:
white belt wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:39 pm
This is a discussion about how the world is, not how the world ought to be.
so:

this last weekend there were about 700 proud boys in dc: drinking in the streets, burning church signs, and looking for a rumble.
Last edited by Alphaville on Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:54 am
@IlliniDave:

It doesn't seem as tranquil from my spot here in deep purple ...
Cool you scored a gig with a Hall of Fame band!

That's the sort of thing folks around keep a wary eye on, although your example is less dramatic than what really makes folks take notice. Even the purple/blue islands (i.e., proper cities) people are not weaponizing politics. For now, at least.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by IlliniDave »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:40 am
folks around here are a tiny minority and we won't influence the herd. but one has to watch the herd. the mistake is to bury one's head under the sand,

i know some "smart" people plus a few stupid ones who have gone full qanon, and i want to see what kool-aid they're drinking.
...
this last weekend there were about 700 proud boys in dc: drinking in the streets, burning church signs, and looking for a rumble.
Gosh, I'm surprised antifa didn't show up for that rally too ...

wft is qanon anyway?

Keep an eye on the herd, sure, but also stay vigilant to spot the predators. Referring to the OP quote you included, there are many alternates to how the world is. "Ought to be" is one, as is, "what people want you to believe".

Any way, this is too far off topic. Still don't foresee a TNN.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

i don't "foresee" a specific "tnn," but i have observed enough of trump's character and his most devoted followers (as opposed to strategic voters) to reasonably assume that:

a) he will continue to refuse to admit defeat

b) he will continue to pander to his base via the internet and perhaps some other media

c) his base will continue to believe whatever he says no matter how kooky

d) loyal base provides an opportunity for profit in the attention economy

e) the country will suffer as a result (but i can't predict numerically in what measure)
Last edited by Alphaville on Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Lemur »

I doubt there will be a Trump News Network. I believe he will be too busy with lawsuits anyway.

Speaking of anti-fragility....best to avoid political discussions or get into political arguments IRL. If you sense contempt in this post it is because its true. I live in a purple county.

Maybe the next couple of months after the Georgia Senate race is over and after the political uprisings die down, we can enter a 'cooling-off' period. Trumps base will slowly come around to accepting its over or continue to go into there basements and keep arguing online. Nixon supporters will similar in a way; they just didn't have access to the internet :lol: The random right-wing terrorist attack will probably continue as per usual and when it does you'll hear 'that's what you get for defunding the police!' which would be an ironic statement but not a surprising one. :?

I have a good friend that is a Trump supporter and I've come to some understandings that many in this base are simply uneducated (not an insult, I'm sure there is a stat somewhere to support this) but believe it or not, I think the vast majority do not have bad intentions (except the anti-masking ones or any behaviors that can lead to negative effects on others..."in the name of freedom" lol).

Extremism is mostly just a distribution of people online. My friend, like ffj also believes that they will be on some sort of 'list' and there will be retribution from the other side. Needless to say...I can't exactly describe why this is but...I swear most have some form of Paranoid Personality Disorder.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_ ... y_disorder . The left are far too pacifist to actually go around making lists and rounding up Trump supporters in FEMA camps. :roll:

Anyway...no I doubt we will see any TNN but I don't think Trump will go away either.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

Lemur wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:34 am
I doubt there will be a Trump News Network. I believe he will be too busy with lawsuits anyway.
the trump trumpet (let's not call it "news network") can provide him hedge against lawsuits

proclamations of "unfair mexican judges" and "witch hunts" can taint jury pools or fuel donations drives towards legal defense funds.

this is already happening with donations towards the electoral challenges ("stop the steal!") that will pay down his campaign debts (per the fine print).

i think you're underestimating a master manipulator. he will always find suckers.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by jacob »

Insofar there's a desire to have a continued debate, I'd strongly suggest sticking with terms that both sides find acceptable. See forum rule #10.
jacob wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:58 pm
10) UPHOLD THE PRINCIPLE OF CHARITY. The principle of charity presumes that
  • The other uses words in the ordinary way;
  • The other makes true statements;
  • The other makes valid arguments;
  • The other says something interesting.
The applies to reading posts as well as writing posts. This is yet another way of phrasing the kind of personal behavior that preserves and creates a high standard of online behavior which is becoming ever harder to find. This rule is more of a guideline but notice how it confirms and reinforces many of the previous rules. Practically this suggests striving to avoid using rhetorical tricks to trap whomever one disagrees with. Aim to inform (a win-win outcome) rather than debate (typically a win-lose).

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by white belt »

I guess what I was trying to say is Trump will likely just be the face of the network and he will have other partners who run the day-to-day operations, kind of like how he spends most of the time in the White House making public appearances and tweeting, rather than really digging in to day-to-day policy decisions. He’ll probably bring on board his family members along with media savvy executives.

My general policy is to avoid political discussions in public and online, which works pretty well. However this policy of political ignorance gets much harder when people are burning cars and looting businesses on your street, which is exactly where my parents found themselves a few months ago. Hence why I now at least keep a pulse on these trends so I’m less likely to be caught unawares.
Last edited by white belt on Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:52 am
I guess what I was trying to say is Trump will likely just be the face of the network and he will have other partners who run the day-to-day operations, kind of like how he spends most of the time in the White House making public appearances and tweeting, rather than really digging in to day-to-day policy decisions. He’ll probably bring on board his family members along with media savvy executives.
yes of course i dont know where people got the idea that he'd be doing interviews or chasing scoops. all he needs to do is issue proclamations from on high for whatever purpose suits him. i mean, licensing is his business model anyway. he doesn't "run" anything just lends his name mostly.
white belt wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:52 am
My general policy is to avoid political discussions in public and online, which works pretty well. However this policy of political ignorance gets much harder when people are burning cars and looting businesses on your street, which is exactly where my parents found themselves a few months ago. Hence why I know at least keep a pulse on these trends so I’m less likely to be caught unawares.
yup. gotta keep an eye on the crazies. violence can erupt in times of political tension. right now tensions are high in some sectors.

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Re: Trump News Network: Implications for the Individual

Post by DutchGirl »

jacob wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:11 am
The problem with having siloed narratives, many of which are increasingly factually wrong (<= not in accordance with reality), and the inability to distinguish opinion from fact or analyze the situation/source due to lack of [critical analysis] education is that it makes it harder to make correct choices. It's often possible for someone to support politics that are against their own interests because the consequences are so indirect as to require the ability for objective analysis which happens to be missing and unobtainable due to an insistence on "lived experience". But not always. Sometimes the consequences are direct. For example, researchers have found cases/death numbers for COVID in a given US county correlate with the degree of Trump/Clinton support in 2016. It sometimes matters to one's survival (financial, health, whatever,...) whether what one believes is factually true. In short, lying (disinformation) or bullshitting (flooding the zone with misinformation) sometimes has real life consequences.

This is a thing that worries me.

My parents are friends with three American siblings, age 50 and up now. One of them is very pro-Trump. We've seen her go from "COVID19 is the Chinese virus" to "Trump will defeat COVID19 before April" to "COVID19 is not dangerous" ...and I guess right now she believes that "the COVID19 numbers are fraud and thus COVID19 still isn't dangerous", but I haven't bothered to ask.

It seems like every time she might be getting a reality check, instead she instantly believes "the next lie" fed to her. I really hate how even in to me OBVIOUS DIRECT causes and consequences (you keep interacting with many other humans >>> the virus has more chances to spread), for her it's impossible to see them.

And then I'm guessing it's even harder to see the causes and consequences when it comes to more complicated matters like "the influence of politicians on the national economy" or even worse "the local economy". Or say "the benefits and disadvantages of a national healthcare system". COVID19 is relatively simple compared to those topics, and the ups and downs of the local economy are influenced by so many things that it's harder to see the influence from which politician(s) you chose to lead your area/state/country.

And I guess by the way that I also don't always oversee all of them. But it's even harder for people who are less intelligent and less educated. I worry quite a lot about what that means for the US and for the world.

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