A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

What I am trying to get at follows from general rule of thumb that electricity should be conserved for information enhancing activities. Humans are large animals to begin with, and the average American human uses fuel at the same rate as the metabolism of a blue whale. So, even very clean, expensive streams like electricity when used to promote flow of information ( can be as basic as a led lightbulb that allows you to read a paper book or dice an onion after sundown) are more quality of life efficient than using fossil fuel powered engines to replace/augment human muscles.

Another way to consider this is that it is “better” to use energy/technology to augment your nervous system and sensory organs than your muscles. I think the reason why this is true has to do with second law of thermodynamics. You create more relative order in your system burning electricity to light a small screen to read a DeLillo novel than you do by using the same amount of energy to avoid opening a can with your hand muscles. In fact, using your hand instead would create more order.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

see if we had the smarter design we could have more bicycle touring around local beautiful places, instead of kerosene-powered cattle wagons temporarily shuttling us away from our ugliness (only to bring us back to it a week later). but then some oil industry dude would complain about “economic output!” of such delicious lazy worry-free slow travels.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Agreed. Maybe we should focus on creating better, more B’rer Rabbit like broken window incidents? As in, “Oops, I wore out another aging lover by encouraging him to dig up compacted soil in my garden. I guess I will have to go down to the place where recently divorced men are discarded and allow a new-to-me one buy me some Vegan Vietnamese Street food at the pop-up spot run by my friend who spends even less money in the fossil fuel economy than me.”

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:01 pm
buy me some
haaa haaa haaaa

you’re incorrigible :lol:

jacob
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by jacob »

FWIW, Biden's win means that the US will almost surely rejoin the Paris Agreement, which the US otherwise ultimately abandoned just a few days ago, likely on the first day in office. What this means is that global foundation for an attempt at a mitigation solution will at least remain in place for the world's nations to try to negotiate an agreement (Paris 2?) with teeth. In short, the Biden win makes a globally coordinated mitigation solution possible in theory (having lost only 4 years), whereas a Trump win would have permanently sunk the agreement and reduced the world to national adaption plans due to having run out of time to restart the entire process a few years from now (a loss of 1-2 decades).

Recall, mitigation means measures taken to reduce the magnitude of the damage. Adaption means measures to figure out how to live with the damage.

However, it's my understanding that the PA was originally ratified by executive order and what EO's give they just as easily take away again. The likelihood of US congress actually signing it into law under a bipartisan agreement seems small?? US states with intensive mining industries are deeply opposed to any regulation that would cut material amounts of jobs(*). W/o bipartisanship it seems likely that rejoining will be an EO again unless Georgia's senate run-off will resolve in favor on the Democrats as this would create a 50-50 split in the senate with the VP having the decisive vote. The likelihood of this resolution is rather low though.

(*) To understand/develop some empathy with this apparent level of generational self-destructiveness, I recommend https://www.amazon.com/No-Immediate-Dan ... 399563490/ and https://www.amazon.com/No-Good-Alternat ... 525558497/ The titles say it all...

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Also see this video:

https://youtu.be/uALyCLBnv20

In a way Jimmy Rose has much in common with Wendell Berry whose hometown was dependent on tobacco production. I guess his less talented cousins could come work in the new Amazon warehouse in Detroit :x :x

Anyways, number one with a bullet reason I voted for Biden. Otherwise reminded me of choosing between Starbucks or Checkers for lunch.

enigmaT120
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by enigmaT120 »

"...so much wasted life."

You certainly have that right. Glad I'm done.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Update: The "red"/"blue" common ground workshop that prompted this thread was this weekend. Here are just a few thoughts.

- Not surprisingly perhaps, given what I think of the person from our parish staff who set this workshop up, the workshop was not at all what it had been sold to us as being. Rather than a parish-specific community-building workshop meant to find common ground between folks within our parish of different political leanings, it was instead some sort of focus group, think-tank type thing, where those of us who were designated as "participants" (as opposed to "observers") were basically guinea pigs. Of the 10 or so participants, less than half were actually from our parish; the rest were from all over the country, and most of them weren't even Catholic. Now, Jesuits are known for extending out the definition of "community" to its logical ends, but I wasn't happy, and because I'm me, I made sure the organizers knew it.

- To say the least, the experience was a bit surreal, as the workshop started a couple hours after the news agencies declared Biden victorious, and as I opted to participate in the workshop virtually from my office, I had to walk through a parade of hundreds of folks celebrating in our downtown square to get to the computer from which I was participating in the workshop. And then during the entire 3-hour workshop I had car horns honking non-stop in the background.

- I was BY FAR the most radical person on the issue from either the "red" side or the "blue" side.

- The techno-optimism shown by both sides was difficult for me to comprehend, including techno-optimism shown by one "blue" who claimed he'd been an environmental activist for the past 20 years.

- I was the only person who would even acknowledge that the "solution" would require that we all learn to consume a bit less.

- Nevertheless, EVERYONE (said they) supported some sort of carbon tax/fee, with some sort of dividend component. That said, I suspect that most if not all folks on both sides (except me) would push back on the idea once if they really understand what it would mean. E.g., the techno-optimism shown by the group assumed that the taxes/fees would simply prompt "green innovation" so that the market would provide a solution that would emit less CO2 while we continue consuming the same ways we do now. I, on the other hand, see the main point of a carbon tax/fee being to make it more expensive to consume as much.

- There was one other "red" about the same age as me; all of the other participants were at least a decade older. My conclusion from talking to these folks is that the Baby Boomers and the older Gen Xers just need to get out of the way on this issue. There's just too much cognitive dissonance when you've got a generation that's lived their entire lives living as if progress is a given, living infinitely on a finite planet.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:52 am
My conclusion from talking to these folks is that the Baby Boomers and the older Gen Xers just need to get out of the way on this issue. There's just too much cognitive dissonance when you've got a generation that's lived their entire lives living as if progress is a given, living infinitely on a finite planet.
hahahaha! i agree with this in a broad sense. there are individual exceptions, but as “generations” goes, yes—clueless.

hence my hopes remain banked on “the kids” who, in spite of their human fallibilities, have a better grasp on the issues.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

jacob wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:36 pm
Since you brought up Laudato Si and since you're discussing this in a Catholic workshop, I'd be interested in knowing how it was received and how many actually read and follow these declarations as opposed to pursuing more of a cafeteria philosophy when it comes to their beliefs. IIRC, when it came out, it received some push back from American bishops who did not appreciate the critique of consumerism and the global growth economy/free market beliefs.
To address Jacob's question, as I said above this wasn't really a "Catholic workshop," although I'd been led to think otherwise. That said, among the Catholics that participated and that were vocal (2 reds and 2 blues), all of us cited Laudato Si as a motivating factor for caring about this issue. That said, like any other institution with a shared belief system, Catholics will disagree as to which beliefs they individually (or by parish, or by region, or by religious order, etc.) choose to emphasize. I don't see it as much as a cafeteria philosophy--yes to this, no to that; as much as I see it as a question of tone and emphasis (i.e., I'm not saying I reject A over B, I just choose to emphasize B over A--this is Benedict's justice vs. Francis's mercy). Anyway, the practical effect is probably the same; whether it's rejection as opposed to just de-emphasis.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

As an oldest Gen-Xer (January 65), I absolutely agree about the generational divide. OTOH, I don’t think most of even the die-hard believer kids are able to connect the dots to their own economics. Student loan payments, honeymoon flights to Iceland, and DoorDash from the new noodle place is their reality. Especially as they cross over to married with kids they are likely to end up as mired as their elders in the hopeless nexus of avoiding slippery status slope of growing inequality vs saving the planet.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

idk. greta thunberg sailed over here after all. the younger they are the more they get it.

after i read your denounciations of air travel (i hadn’t really computed) i started fantasizing about an ere lifestyle of sailboats and bycicles around the globe. because i *do* like to travel but hate airplanes. disembarking at nice and pedaling up the alps sounds like an utter blast.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Alphaville wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:49 am
Here you go Alphaville: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/quid ... at-sails#/; this should do it for you.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:53 am
Here you go Alphaville: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/quid ... at-sails#/; this should do it for you.
to quote henderson the rain king: i want i want i want :lol:

seriously, i was born next to the ocean, but now live in the desert where my wife grew up. once we’re done with our work here though, i’m dragging her back to my natural habitat... this would be a great way to do that.

jacob
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by jacob »

Alphaville wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:49 am
idk. greta thunberg sailed over here after all. the younger they are the more they get it.
Or maybe only a small fraction of any generation get it and history just repeats itself?

Here's Severn Cullis-Suzuki addressing the UN in Rio1992 at age 12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_O1Au8vZLA
And here she is again 20 years later in Rio2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FmSxmpitBA

slsdly
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by slsdly »

I second the notion it is a small fraction. Most of the people marching in the protests don't actually want change. They want social validation. The majority of those I know who marched, after discussions, feel very threatened by the notion that their lifestyle may be impacted (travel, consumerism). It is always someone else that needs to change; the oil companies, the ultra wealthy, etc. Deferral of responsibility is either innately human, or a byproduct of how modern society is organized :).

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

jacob wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:14 am
Or maybe only a small fraction of any generation get it and history just repeats itself?

Here's Severn Cullis-Suzuki addressing the UN in Rio1992 at age 12: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_O1Au8vZLA
And here she is again 20 years later in Rio2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FmSxmpitBA
daaang. well, after 20 years, she remains optimistic she says.

i’m not trying to be blindly hopeful, just trying to find spaces for my non-cynical side to operate (the cynical side needs no encouragement hahahaha).

small fractions sure, but remember that it takes time for “fringe” movements to break into the mainstream.

e.g., the rise of “alternative” 90s music was the blooming of 70s punk and 60s garage rock. the hippies in the 60s were really the bearers of beatnik currents that began perhaps in the 40s. i’m not saying this is a cure-all, but that it takes time for certain ideas or cultural currents to explode.

culture changes, sometimes unnoticed until something big happens. history is full of examples.

of course it may be too late to save us all, but i don’t believe the ideological curve will remain flat forever. (of course this is just mere belief not certainty, much less of one particular outcome.)

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I was substitute teaching in Ann Arbor (most educated city in the U.S. - where I go instead of flying to Western Europe) last year during Earth Week, so I ended up in the audience of 3 different student presentations. No doubt that they get it like Greta. I was tearing up myself during the moment of silence slide show of species likely to soon become extinct.

The problem is that the yearly property tax bill on the median house in Ann Arbor is approximately 1 Jacob. The infrastructure required to be able to almost be able to get things right in even a small city is staggering. This is also why most Americans are already topping out their global footprint before spending dime one personally. The government and corporate and non-profit infrastructure provided already adds up to almost full footprint/capita.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

I finished Peter Klamus's book over the weekend, though my efforts to watch his documentary without paying Overlord Bezos proved unsuccessful, so I listened to a few podcast interviews he'd done instead. It was a bit funny that, thanks to all the information I've consumed via firehose during the past 3 weeks, I had no problem tearing through Klamus's book because I didn't need to be convinced or even validated; I just was interested in the practical steps he'd taken. My main takeaway from both Klamus and Kingsnorth is that I think I've heard both of them say that they aren't really living the way they are living because they think it will have some significant impact on the planet (on an individual level). Rather, they both seem to be doing it (a) so that their messages are more authentic, (b) so that their respective kids learn how to be happy with less, and (c) to assuage the guilt they feel for knowing that they live in and contribute to a civilization that is destroying their own habitat. I can get on board with that. I also liked that Klamus came to the same conclusion that Kingsnorth did about the importance of storytelling in this; to alphaville's point, I think the storytelling angle might end up being the most critical piece of all this. The scientists have done their job; it's now up to the artists to change the culture.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Didn’t Dr. Seuss already cover this for us? The problem is we seem to be going with “The Cat in the Hat” solution rather than remembering “The Lorax” or the wisdom of Horton.

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