A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

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jennypenny
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by jennypenny »

Alphaville wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:12 pm
sure, consumerism is america’s religion
I actually disagree with this. I think advancement/self-improvement/upward mobility is America's religion. Consumerism is just the current and most efficient mechanism for that. It didn't used to be. People used to belong to social, religious, and civic societies where status could be attained through other measures. Traditional middle class jobs had well-defined 'ladders' to climb and trade jobs had strong unions and apprenticeships. Small business owners achieved status by providing a needed service to their communities and supporting civic events.

That's mostly gone now unless you're religious (and that's waning). Belonging and status seeking have been monetized, mostly through consumerism. People who no longer have deep relationships with their neighbors through these groups have to rely on outward symbols.* The middle class job climbing structure has been replaced by the flatter service industry sector and the gig economy (which provides no status at all, even when successful**).

Junger's Tribe really resonated with me, and while I agree that older societies also had problems with how they were structured, the new monetized version sans most civic groups (except for activists) is completely depriving us of any mechanism to develop a sense of belonging. The current team shirt approach to everything is what I think happens when the money for buying status runs out and you have to resort to conflict as the primary means.

In a way, I think this is a good thing for climate change. It's actually a step away from purchasing your place in the world and looking for another means. Conflict is obviously not the answer, but it might be the interim step we need to take away from money and towards something else (whatever that is). If clever people can figure out how to push that collective need towards something beneficial, then, maybe, we have a chance to make some meaningful changes.


* This explains Cowen's observations that people are increasingly self-sorting ... it makes it easier to judge one's place in the world.

**I think a big part of the difficulty with selling ERE is that there's a one-time status bump by retiring early, but then status declines unless you have a structured plan for maintaining it. I think this explains why the search for meaning comes up often on the forum.

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jennypenny:

I half agree with you. I think I semi-consciously decided around age 16 that my “tribe” was anybody on the planet who fell roughly into the category “somewhat cuckoo-bananas, expanded definition IQ over125.” So, for instance, I was friends with a woman who dated Sebastian Junger, because they were both members of my self-selected “tribe” subsection “100x more physically attractive than me” and in Junger’s case subsection “100x more likely to own a residence in Cape Cod than me or my friend.” You and I are friends on the internet, because you also belong to my “tribe” and even if I didn’t “know” you, but was maybe sitting across from you in an airport terminal and observed that your reading material consisted of a copy of “Tribe” and a Prepper Zine, I would assume that you were actually a member of my “tribe”, not somebody who went to the trouble of purchasing and displaying them simply for the purpose of signaling membership.

Therefore, I was embarrassed when I realized that I didn’t really understand the science underlying climate change or the economic ramifications. So, I had to read a lot of books in order to repair my self-esteem. Now, the question I have, which I believe I share with many other members of my “tribe” is how to self-actualize or continue to self-actualize within this this knowledge? For some individuals, helping other people at the level of “belonging” is how they self-actualize, other people might self-actualize by writing dark apocalyptic fiction, other people might self-actualize through a permaculture project, other people might self-actualize by continuing to explore possible technological solutions, etc etc etc

OTOH, there is also something inherent in the concept of “belonging” which requires true physical proximity or intimacy. For example, we would all feel much more like we “belong” to this forum if we actually shared food with each other rather than just recipes or advice. The number one practice for creating a new family or sense of family when you don’t have one is “patterned sharing of food.” But “patterned sharing of food” does not directly lead to self-actualization for most people. So, the tribe from within which you can self-actualize is not necessarily the tribe with whom you currently experience break-bread level belonging.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:58 am

In other words, Gen Y is the perfectly ignorant, vain, hypocritical, self-absorbed echo of the Boomers.
oh, damn, hahaha, that was... a potent critique.

i’ve seen some of that, first-hand, the narcissistic dark side to their earnestness (and yeah i hate the millennial clap). in conflicts with millennials i’ve seen that reflex to protect the virtuous image first and foremost, rather than question their actions/methods narratives. but there’s still the good side to them (maybe, i’d like to think) and that maybe has a future.

smash mouth is a gen-xer band. are you sure you’re not a gen-xer? culturally anyway? these currents have a way to overlap.

anyway, points taken, i guess we’ll see what happens when they take over. at least they seem to be more aware of what’s going on though.
jennypenny wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:51 am
I actually disagree with this.
thank you for that very interesting disagreement! yes, i’m won over by your analysis, mine was more of an ahistorical off the cuff statement, but i see the narrative of self-improvement degenerating into buying.

money was always there though, since the beginning, as the measure of the improvement. e.g., this funny (shocking) expression that you don’t have in other languages: “how much are you worth?” in other languages it tends to be how much you have; your personal worth is elsewhere, like with saints or impoverished aristocrats.

america was always the place for the new rich, and rather than family history or titles, the social validator was coin. of course there have always been other social institutions, traditions, religion, family, ethnic associations, etc. which maybe are disappearing for those groups already established (but survive well among immigrants.)

maybe also it’s the recent expansion of personal credit that brought the extra focus to the hat, rather than the cattle?

i haven’t read junger but looking at his internet summaries my tribe is mostly outsiders and eccentrics :lol:

7Wannabe5
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

MISSING DATES

Slowly the poison the whole blood stream fills.
It is not the effort nor the failure tires.
The waste remains, the waste remains and kills.

It is not your system or clear sight that mills
Down small to the consequence a life requires;
Slowly the poison the whole blood stream fills.

They bled an old dog dry yet the exchange rills
Of young dog blood gave but a month's desires.
The waste remains, the waste remains and kills.

It is the Chinese tombs and the slag hills
Usurp the soil, and not the soil retires.
Slowly the poison the whole blood stream fills.

Not to have fire is to be a skin that shrills.
The complete fire is death. From partial fires
The waste remains, the waste remains and kills.

It is the poems you have lost, the ills
From missing dates, at which the heart expires.
Slowly the poison the whole blood stream fills.
The waste remains, the waste remains and kills

-William Empsom 1937

enigmaT120
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by enigmaT120 »

Hunter S. Thompson, "Hells Angels" right? I have a 650 Bonneville the same year as his Lightening, I wish we could race.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

I'm a bit in shock how much my views on CC (and, well, society in general) have changed in the past couple of weeks as a result of this thread and this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qc8sULoa-4

I've gone from burying my head in the sand to being borderline radical.

mooretrees
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by mooretrees »

@hb, it's been really interesting to see it happening, and you're pulling me along with you. Now what happens?

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

@mt: Good question; if you figure out an answer, please share it with me.

Right now, I'm just reading what I can. I'm currently reading Peter Kalmus's "Being the Change" book, which I learned about somewhere on this forum, and which I hope will provide some answers. And I'm planning on reading everything Kingsnorth wrote in the last 15 years or so (i.e., once he became a defeatist). Also planning on doing a very deep dive into Wendell Berry, both his fiction and his essays (someone who probably "gets me" better than I get myself gifted me his 2-volume collection of essays a year ago and, shamefully, I've not actually cracked them open yet). Other than that, likely lots of dystopian collapsist fiction, like probably re-reading Dune and Fight Club, reading Parable of the Sower once it arrives at the library (your recommendation!), probably finally reading Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and likely reading more of Heinlein. Certainly interested in any other recommendations.

Work is becoming borderline absurd for me at this point; and I'm quickly moving towards a place where I'm ready to reevaluate and perhaps set up some sort of "eat what you kill" arrangement (leave it to lawyers to refer to revenue generation in this manner), as opposed to a salary-based compensation approach; so that I can have more control over when and how much I work, and who I work for and what work I take on. I think this is part of me finally starting to move past WL4. If I had to guess our daily consumption spending likely will decrease pretty drastically in the next few months, though there also will be some bigger purchases related to up-front costs for things like long-term food storage, vegetable gardening, water storage, home repair/maintenance, etc. Both DW and I are realizing the importance of teaching our kids to live happily and comfortably with less and with making less of an ecological impact.

Also becoming absurd for me is any interest in this election; which is probably a good thing because lots of folks in my various circles seem very on edge at the moment--DW keeps commenting on how many laughable "self care in times of stress" stories have shown up in the news the past couple days.

I'm certainly even more interested lately in spending time with DW and the kids, not in front of the TV. And also more time with my church community.

Also getting more and more nervous about the fact that so much of our net worth is invested in a manner that is so dependent on society continuing to progress;* though I haven't figured out exactly what to do with that at this point, apart from the fact that DW and I stopped making any additional investments into retirement accounts a few months ago, beyond employer match. That might end up screwing us in terms of taxes, but at the moment I feel better about that than I do sticking $39K/yr in some sort of stocks/bonds index retirement account that we won't be able to touch without penalty until about 2040 (https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2019 ... -2040-a-d/).

A good friend, who falls into the renaissance man category, wants me to invest with him in some rural property further north in the mountains (though still in the South), where we can build some off-grid cabins and have a place to take our kids hunting, fishing, camping, etc. I'm inclined to do it, but I'm cognizant of the frustration and disappointment that can (will) happen when I "purchase" my rural Eden and then find that a chicken battery farm moves next door (or the meth-head ne'er-do-wells, @ffj). Also, not sure if I shouldn't be buying property a bit (a lot) more north.**

I'm also not sleeping much.

Sorry, this has turned into a long journal post.

*ETA: I mean, our net worth increased something like $20K just over the past couple days BECAUSE OF all the gridlock and confusion with the election. I mean, I get that it's good from a Wall Street perspective to have a Dem. pres with a Rep. senate (i.e., nothing will get done); but there's just something off that I have to root for division and gridlock, from a net worth perspective, because a decisive victory (even short of a landslide) either way--representing that as a country we're somewhat unified--is a BAD thing for our economy?!

**ETA ETA: Bear in mind that I'm only a month or so removed from reading Kaczynski's manifesto, and I'm cognizant of what happened when his own rural Eden was encroached upon by industrialized society. I think there's a lot of wisdom in JMG's thinking that perhaps for a lot of folks being in a more densely populated, walkable neighborhood/town, with good relations with your neighbors and community, and with pretty much everything you need within easy walking/biking distance, might make more sense in the world to come. That's what I've got now, and I certainly see the benefits. BUT, I also have to step around homeless folks sleeping on the sidewalk on my way to work, not to mention urine spots and empty food containers--so I see the appeal of escaping to the country, but I also get that there's power in density. I don't know; we can afford to do both, and so perhaps that makes sense--give ourselves options, and sooner rather than later.

Campitor
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Campitor »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:06 am
...I see the appeal of escaping to the country, but I also get that there's power in density. I don't know; we can afford to do both, and so perhaps that makes sense--give ourselves options, and sooner rather than later.
Indigenous people that lived in areas of poor or seasonal resources were migratory. And they would split as a group once they reached a certain tribal size to avoid stressing their environments beyond the capacity of group survival. When the global apocalypse does occur, the most flexible and adaptable humans will likely survive.

Being highly mobile will be one of the most advantageous models in the later stages of ecological breakdown until the population has thinned enough that cooperation is a better paradigm than looting and killing. Or in other words, don't get fixated on having a "bunker" as your only solution because you may need to abandon it due to unforeseen weather conditions (drought, flood, perma-frost etc.), resource depletion, or other humans wanting to take what you have stored.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Campitor wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:24 am
Well, I know what strategy for the future DW would prefer, and that's the camper strategy, so long as the camper is a shiny Airstream. The image of the camper caravan barreling across the desert in the Independence Day movie, running from the alien invasion, comes to mind. In all honesty, my renaissance man friend wants the rural property in part because he also wants an Airstream, and he figures if we have to pay to store it someplace, why not just buy our own "storage" place. And then there's no real rush to get anything built on the property, because we'd both have Airstreams. It's an enticing idea. We maintain our small townhome in a fantastic, modest, low-profile in-town community, with everything (church, school, work, shopping, parks) within walking distance, and we have some rural property where the kids can actually experience nature, and we have a home on wheels for when the SHTF.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

i was thinking last night that every era looks forward to its own “apocalypse.”

i grew up with the spectre of thermonuclear annihilation and nuclear winter that would drive us to extinction

then it was peak oil that would grind civilization to a halt and unleash the mad max oil wars.

now we’re trying to cope with rising seas and overheating and the great flood.

these are all real possibilities, real events, but we seem to just focus on one at a time for some reason, and forget the others.

it would be very (darkly) funny if we manage to turn around the climate ship and solve the energy problem and eliminate nukes, and then a big asteroid hits the earth :lol:

anyway here’ some good music from a previous extinction horizon (that might still happen): https://youtu.be/lsPrINajncU

eta: oh, we did have asteroid fever for a while at the turn of the century, there were some bad movies i avoided back then, but the advertisements are probably still bouncing around in my subconscious.

there really are so many ways we can go... we need a more comprehensive strategy than banking it all on one scenario.

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Per Wikipedia: "An apocalypse is a disclosure or revelation of great knowledge." That's certainly how I'm looking at this--not as end of the world, but a peeling away of the layers of what I understood to be reality. I'm sure you'd already figured all of this out, but I hadn't. And I think if anything this thread shows that CC, resource depletion (and peak oil), and prolonged warfare over those limited resources (whether through nuclear annihilation or otherwise*) are all part of one interconnected "apocalypse."

*Actually, I think someone further up suggested (in jest, no doubt) nuclear annihilation as one possible policy solution.

ETA: Here's another song to consider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97gX9QSwZk

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

taleb in black swan talks about the value of preparedness over forecasting (but only as an individual solution, not a social one).

what’s a political solution to a giant global problem?

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

I don't know, that's why I asked the question.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

it’s a tough one...

i don’t see it happening without global consensus + enforecement

(but by definition i only see very little)

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Population control. Pump up the cost of living. Starve people out. Start wars. Release viruses. Suppress free speech. Suppress masculinity to eliminate viable competition for limited resources. Always say one thing, and always mean another.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

@mi

is that from a video game?

Hristo Botev
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Hristo Botev »

Alphaville wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:20 pm
@mi
is that from a video game?
I think that's reality.

Alphaville
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Alphaville »

Hristo Botev wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 2:46 pm
I think that's reality.
i read trollin and overexaggeration but ymmv

i was more interested in possible solutions to a posited problem than culture war red herrings

(it is an interesting problem, regardless of where the thread might go)

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: A Conservative Policy Solution to Slow Down Climate Change?

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

The IMF video that I first referenced in this post I linked to in this post. We are having this conversation concurrent with the others here and here. Notice the IMF uses the term ‘The Long Ascent,’ when the JMG’s ‘The Long Descent’ would actually be the most applicable phrase. The exact opposite words are used. Sound familiar? There are no red herrings.

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