COVID topic vol 2

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A Life of FI
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by A Life of FI »

jacob wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:59 pm
Because the lack of exhalation filter in the unmodified consumer version(*) would require everybody in the nursing home to wear one whenever they find themselves in the same room as someone else. This would require people to demonstrate an unusual level of conscientiousness, awareness, and discipline far beyond what can be expected from everybody in a group of random people.
But then we are effectively causing bankruptcies, depression and lockdown deaths among the people not-at-risk because the at-risk people can’t be bothered to wear a mask when they are in a room with someone else.

We are saying to people stop your life, close your business and in some cases go into poverty/depression to save the old, because the old won't wear a mask when they are in a room with someone else. Even though wearing a mask is infinitely easier than any of those things we are asking the non-at-risk to do and much more effective.

If the masks that you cited above work as you said (which I am not disputing) and the at-risk choose not to use them, didn’t they choose to put themselves at risk and should bear the consequences accordingly. Why should others be forced to destroy their lives for someone else being reckless with theirs.

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Ego
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:26 pm
Apparently, there's a reason for that.

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginal ... dians.html
In one of the recent TWiVs they mentioned that cross-vaccination trials began even before the mRNA vaccines were approved. First shot, Moderna. Second shot, Pfizer. Or visa-versa. They seemed to think it was wise to prepare in case there is a shortage of one of the boosters or in case of accidental cross-vaccination.

Of course, my suspicious mind immediately thought this was brilliant on the part of both companies. Make sure there are no horrible side effects if someone is administered one shot of each vaccine. Then, after most people have gotten their two shots a researcher will materialize to 'discover' that each vaccine protects in a slightly different way. Just enough to justify vaccinating everyone with the alternating shot.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by tonyedgecombe »

thrifty++ wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok so now we have news from China saying the actual figures were ten times what was reported. This after Russia admitted death toll was 3 times what was reported. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid- ... GAQSSJR2U/
Everybodys figures were inacurrate in the first phase becasue there wasn't enough testing.

ertyu
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by ertyu »

Correct. That you would only be able to zero in on the actual incidence post-factum makes sense. In addition to spotty testing under strained conditions, many would just not test. E.g. in the case of China, if you test and you're found positive, you'd be whisked away to the military hospital and you might never see your family again. Or, a little more prosaically, a couple of working class Americans I know are not in a position to risk losing 2 weeks income if made to quarantine away from work. In Bulgaria, we benefit from EU subsidies as we weather through this, but even so, many people I know have said they prefer to isolate at home and not know for sure if they're sick with covid (or simply the flu) than to line up in a hospital with other covid-positive people who are testing and get it there. Etcetera. A discrepancy between the figures reported at the time and the figures estimated post-factum is to be expected. In every country the actual count is times higher than the reported count.

George the original one
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by George the original one »

60% of nursing home employees in Ohio are refusing to be vaccinated. 38% of all COVID-19 deaths are in nursing homes.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nursing ... ne-2020-12

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Ego
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Ego »

@George, it may be wise to get curious about what it actually means to say 60% of frontline healthcare workers refuse the vaccine.

Are 60% of frontline healthcare workers evil? Are they stupid? Brainwashed by social media? Selfish? Uncaring?

Is it possible that they know something you and I don't? I don't mean they know something about the vaccine itself. I mean that their frontline positions may give them a perspective about the nature of Covid that you and I don't have.

People who go into these occupations are generally high-compassion individuals. It is not their nature to purposely hurt others.

Actions speak louder than words. What are they saying?

chenda
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by chenda »

Ego wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:18 pm
Actions speak louder than words. What are they saying?
What do you think they are saying ?

Lemon
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Lemon »

Ego wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:18 pm
Are 60% of frontline healthcare workers evil? Are they stupid? Brainwashed by social media? Selfish? Uncaring?
Care home staff =/= all healthcare worker groups. Approximately 0% of my doctor and nursing colleagues have refused the vaccine. We have had a few admin staff decline.

But I will say those that are currently refusing the COVID vaccine are a different group to the standard vaccine refusal crowd.

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Alphaville
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Alphaville »


Wisconsin hospital worker arrested for spoiled vaccine doses


MADISON, Wis. (AP) — Authorities arrested a suburban Milwaukee pharmacist Thursday suspected of deliberately ruining hundreds of doses of coronavirus vaccine by removing it from refrigeration for two nights.
:roll:

https://apnews.com/article/us-news-milw ... cb9d93a52d

CS
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by CS »

Ego wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:18 pm
Are 60% of frontline healthcare workers evil? Are they stupid? Brainwashed by social media? Selfish? Uncaring?
I've worked in Ohio as a healthcare worker for several years. This action says nothing about the vaccine but rather the (in my opinion) psychotic state of things in Ohio.

I think they should all be fired and replaced with those more suited to care for those at risk. Also, note those refusing were working at long term care facilities. These are low paying jobs, most needing little education. This was not a bunch of hospital workers.

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Dream of Freedom
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Dream of Freedom »

My brother is the chief financial officer at a hospital. He got the vaccine. The administrative workers weren't first in line, but he said half of the medical workers opted out. I don't know how many were nursing home people in the area. He is gungho about the shot, but I wonder why so many are refusing it.

George the original one
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by George the original one »

Ego wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:18 pm
Actions speak louder than words. What are they saying?
Anything I speculate would be hearsay and worthless. I'd rather hear them say why.

I mean, seriously, this is what is wrong with the "news networks", where commentary & opinion is treated as fact. Whatever I interpret is not fact.

George the original one
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by George the original one »

Ego wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:18 pm
Are 60% of frontline healthcare workers evil? Are they stupid? Brainwashed by social media? Selfish? Uncaring?
Okay, here's a wothless speculation: they've already had COVID-19, thus they consider themselves vaccinated already.

mooretrees
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by mooretrees »

My hospital offered free covid-19 antibody testing and there were a few positive tests of the results I saw. Several of the people who tested positive are not getting the vaccine. I believe they wouldn't have gotten it anyway due to their religious beliefs. I do know that a few other lab folks are waiting before getting the vaccine. One is waiting as she's really a conspiracy theory person and another is a hard core anti-vaxxer. The anti-vaxxer is actually interested in getting this vaccine as it is the mRNA and not grown in cell cultures.

We've have four vaccine clinics at our hospital and run out of the vaccine each time. The folks I know that aren't in the lab that aren't getting the vaccine don't work with patients and have very strong religious tendencies. I rarely see them wearing masks and am pretty they think this is all a conspiracy.

When I was in line to get my shot it was all direct care workers, nurses, doc, respiratory, lab folks in line with me. The atmosphere was light hearted and people were taking selfies of themselves getting the shot.

So far, my experience is that people who work directly with sick patients are very willing to get the vaccine.

subgard
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by subgard »

From the article itself:
He said people feared the vaccine was "too new and was rushed through the process. The government is trying to do something to me – implant a microchip or do something else harmful. It will sterilize me. It will give me COVID-19. All manner of things from social media.

"Then we have a group who are just against vaccines in general, whether it is for COVID or anything else.

"Another group already had COVID and thinks they don't need the vaccine.

"Probably the biggest fear is the unknown. How sick will it make me? How long will it last?"
No disparagement intended, but nursing home workers are not exactly paragons of critical thinking or serious students of medicine.
People are going to be suspicious of new things that they don't understand.

A lot of people fear flying and prefer driving, because they feel more in control, and more familiar with automobiles (and yet, automobiles are vastly more dangerous than airplanes).
To healthcare workers, they likely feel more in control and familiar with Covid, while a new vaccine is a great and troubling unknown (though the vaccines haven't killed anyone yet, has so far not had any long-term side effects, and Covid has killed over a million, and gives many more terrible long-term side-effects.)

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Ego
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Ego »

subgard wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:54 am
No disparagement intended, but nursing home workers are not exactly paragons of critical thinking or serious students of medicine.
I think this reflects what most believe. I am not saying it is wrong. But you cannot say it and then point to New Zealand or China and say, "They did it over there, we can do it here!". Things are different over here. People are different. We are operating in the world as it is, not as we want it to be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog
chenda wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:33 pm
What do you think they are saying ?
People at the pointy end of any system know the inherent nuances, weaknesses and failures more intimately than those of us further removed. The nursing home workers have been forced since the beginning of Covid to perform what they know to be cargo cult rituals mandated from above. They know better than anyone the terrible consequences inflicted on their charges and, due to their low pay/status, are more likely to be connected to those who have experienced the economic consequences of the response.

So, to answer your question, they are saying that they are willing to play their cargo cult role up to the point where you are forcing them to stick something into their bodies. That's where they draw the line.

I will reiterate, the virus is real. Some who get infected barely notice. Others get sick, some for weeks. Some small percentage die. Baring any big change in safety data, when it is my turn to get vaccinated, I will.

I just won't put on the coconut headset and pretend that it will end Covid or save many lives.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by thrifty++ »

Ego wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
But you cannot say it and then point to New Zealand or China and say, "They did it over there, we can do it here!". Things are different over here. People are different. We are operating in the world as it is, not as we want it to be.
I dont think we can actually say people did it in China either. The CCP admitted their outbreak was 10 times what it has stated occurred. And that is from the CCP. So in reality it has probably been far worse. Who knows what has really been going on there. No one knows. That is the problem.

I think there are extremely few countries where you can trust the information coming out of. Places like New Zealand and Denmark but very few others have the same level of transparency, resources and lack of corruption. Covid is much bigger than what we are seeing. USA is in a bad shape over it but is also more transparent than most countries, so we are not looking at accurate data for comparative purposes, not by a long shot. The data on worldometer is basically garbage for most countries. We are only seeing the beginning of the inaccuracies now.

But yes, USA has a very different culture and difficult to replicate other country strategies. In NZ it worked because people trust the govt. In China any success that has happened (and who knows if it really has) is ironically due tot he opposite that people are scared of the govt and comply with govt demands. People in USA are a bit in the middle in that alot of people do not trust the govt but are not scared enough to avoid any resistance,

A Life of FI
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by A Life of FI »

thrifty++ wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:48 pm
In NZ it worked because people trust the govt.
In NZ the fact that they are a remote island might have more to do with it, possibly, than any trust in the govt.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by thrifty++ »

A Life of FI wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:05 pm


In NZ the fact that they are a remote island might have more to do with it, possibly, than any trust in the govt.
'

That definitely has played part of it. But not all of it. COVID hit at peak NZ tourism season and had spread to every single region of the country before it was subsequently stamped out. There are a lot of other islands that have not eliminated it.

A Life of FI
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by A Life of FI »

Ego wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:19 pm
I think this reflects what most believe. I am not saying it is wrong. But you cannot say it and then point to New Zealand or China and say, "They did it over there, we can do it here!". Things are different over here. People are different. We are operating in the world as it is, not as we want it to be.
Yes - if we followed a Chinese mentality for controlling the virus would that mean we would have also arrested the BLM protestors and they might be doing several years of forced labor in prison camps now – which obviously is not a good idea.

Thus even if we could somehow convert society's mentality to follow other countries approaches overnight, that would mean a whole raft of other economic and social mentality changes that many American’s would not find desirable.

And as Thrifty+ says are we even sure that the Chinese approach to controlling the virus worked.

They stopped reporting asymptotic cases back in March (not sure if they have changed since then), which shows some indication that they were trying to make the situation appear less severe than we have been under our approach of trying to find and count asymptotic cases.

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