Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

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ZAFCorrection
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by ZAFCorrection »

@alphaville

I am advocating that a rigorous problem identification process be performed prior to determining a solution and then executing on it to solve the problem. Problem identification might result in it being found that there is no problem. The best solution might be to do nothing. In all cases, performing these first two steps takes time, which can lead to the perception that nothing is being done.

Read Don Quixote for an example of a complete rejection of utilizing the first two steps for problem solving. I guess you can say that at least the protagonist was getting shit done.

Alphaville
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Alphaville »

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:29 pm

I am advocating that a rigorous problem identification process be performed prior to determining a solution and then executing on it to solve the problem. Problem identification might result in it being found that there is no problem.
but we have an evident problem here, and to me you seem to be advocating for analysis paralysis

Riggerjack
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Riggerjack »

i mean, more power to you in your olympic detachment i guess, but i do feel i have a civic duty.
Ok. I'll bite.

What is your civic duty?

And how will you know when you have completed it?

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by ZAFCorrection »

@alphaville

You have determined that Trump is president and that he is a serious asshole. I have shown that the system is complex enough that trump being an asshole president is not sufficient evidence for there being a serious problem. You say nah uh.

I do admit that I am stuck on the nah uh.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Hristo Botev »

Alphaville wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:25 pm
I can't read the opinion piece because it's behind Jeff Bezos's paywall ( :D ).

That said, I don't think it's "news" that detainees are treated like garbage in this country. Indeed, I did some of the detainee interviews that went into this SPLC report: https://www.splcenter.org/20161121/shad ... tion-south. Note the date.

nomadscientist
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by nomadscientist »

One side thinks the government is false for enforcing laws, the other thinks it is false for not enforcing laws. Different bits of the government are enforcing or waiving different laws, while others are making up laws. In reality no one cares much about the principles under which they cloak their devices; the ends are the only things that count. In that respect the USA resembles the Weimar Republic.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Hristo Botev »

Alphaville wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:25 pm
Justice McDonald based her ruling partly on testimony from asylum seekers who described harrowing conditions of confinement in U.S. detention, to which they are automatically taken when turned back by Canada. One of them, a refugee from Ethiopia named Nedira Jemal Mustefa, recounted what she called a “terrifying, isolating and psychologically traumatic” experience at a “freezing” facility where she was held in upstate New York. Other testimony in the Canadian court provided evidence that detainees in U.S. facilities were denied access to counsel, phone calls and translators, and some were subjected to solitary confinement.
I've spent a total of 4 weeks aggregate over the past 5 years doing pro bono legal work for detainees in a for-profit detention center in the south, and I can say that everything quoted above is consistent with the anecdotal experiences of the detainees (about 50 total I'd say) who I've spoken with. It's true now, and it was true when I first started going to the detention center in the summer of 2016, under the prior administration.

One way to do your "civic duty" is to work within the system to bring about change; e.g., there are no shortage of organizations that advocate for detainees, provide support and comfort for the families of detainees, and who lobby against and educate the public about these centers. I don't understand how tearing down the system is going to bring about any positive change.

Riggerjack
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Riggerjack »

but we have an evident problem here, and to me you seem to be advocating for analysis paralysis
Well I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.

But I read what he wrote, as a call to look at the problem from an outside perspective. Look at the problems we have today, the similar problems we have had in the past. The corrective actions we have taken to similar problems in the past, and most importantly, the ways those fixes went sideways.

Which can be disheartening to people who think we have a problem, so we should fix it. You know, simple problem, simple fix. Then we can all get back on social media to claim credit!

Look around you. The world is nothing but the unsatisfactory fixes to previous problems. If what you see is unsatisfactory, imagine how bad it would be if we just picked the most obvious solution to each problem, seen individually.

What ZAF was proposing wasn't analysis paralysis, it was Progress. And Progress is 99% communication, and far less than 1% action. Or at least, traditionally it is...

Alphaville
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Alphaville »

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:36 pm
I have shown that the system is complex enough that trump being an asshole president is not sufficient evidence for there being a serious problem.
where? i mean, where did you show this?

Jason
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Jason »

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:09 pm

The claim was advanced that America is going fascist.

You replied with a list of qualities entirely tangental to fascism that apply to America. None of these address the accusation of fascism. (Though it was a nice, well thought out list.)

My comment was just my amusement that I'm watching people talk past each other, and one interpretation of this would be if both non conflicting claims are true, then perhaps:

America is the Greatest Fascist State, ever!

Or maybe, just maybe, someone on the internet is making a mountain of a molehill. :o
You are an idiot. Really. So we are just supposed to throw words around with no reference points? We are not supposed to try to inform each other of fascism really is in order to give people a real appreciation for what we have.

Another thread hi-jacked by Riggerspeak. Providing solutions based on digging holes in the ground and laying fiber as opposed to the paradigms on which countries are founded and which they operate. Let's ignore Timothy Snyder. Let's ignore Stephen Kotkin. Let's turn the lectern over to Riggerjack. Now I understand why Bigato wanted to forget he ever posted here. It's shit like this. Idiot, ignorant, condescending blowhards who have to lowest common denominator everything china shop they walk into.

Fascism is a historical reality and concept. People should understand what it resulted in and how it differs from what is going on here. The problem Riggerjack, is you don't understand and you hide behind this nonsense when things go over your head. It's the intellectual copyright thread redux.
Last edited by Jason on Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by ZAFCorrection »

Alphaville wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:57 pm
where? i mean, where did you show this?
In my last post to reepicheep. Also, one of my last posts to you which was fairly long and which you summarized as nihilism. I assume you don't agree with with my point about humans being more-or-less the same in their ability to commit atrocities and that they are restrained by a complex system, but since you waved it away with the nihilism non-sequitur, I'm not sure.

Alphaville
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Alphaville »

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:16 pm
In my last post to reepicheep. Also, one of my last posts to you which was fairly long and which you summarized as nihilism. I assume you don't agree with with my point about humans being more-or-less the same in their ability to commit atrocities and that they are restrained by a complex system, but since you waved it away with the nihilism non-sequitur, I'm not sure.
that you said something doesn’t mean you showed it.

i get that notion that we’re capable of many things- sure, i agree with that. humans can commit atrocities. yes.

but you seem to be saying (correct me if i’m wrong) that what we do doesn’t matter because the system will self-regulate? and that it doesn’t matter who is u.s. president for that reason too? and that the best course of action is to do nothing?

nomadscientist
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by nomadscientist »

What exactly did fascism result in? The fascist countries (Italy, Spain) were actually pretty safe and stable. Spain eventually joined NATO and peacefully merged into the EU.

Germany was Nazi, not fascist, a distinction even they themselves acknowledged; Naziism was rather sterner, more totalitarian, more ideological, explicitly modeled on Bolshevism as fascism had been modeled on reformist social democracy. But even Nazi Germany was not very murderous in peace, although it became so in war.

The 'fascism is the devil' stuff is runoff from communist propaganda; of course at that time everyone who was not a Stalinist was a fascist, from social democrats ("social fascists") to cuddly old monarchists. As we all know, nothing is cuddlier than Stalinism.

The guys who were slaughtering tens of millions in peacetime were the communists, many of whom fled the fascists and Nazis to America, where they settled down to an apolitical life of potato farming, never to be heard from again.

Jason
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Jason »

If on hand you are going to dismiss fascism as "that's what the kids are saying these days" then you at minimum lose the pedagogical moment which I believe is important. If on the other hand, you really believe that the country is fascist, then you have to define fascism historically, semantically, in order to provide evidence that the system has changed because the system does not state that it doesn't matter who the President is. It actually states the opposite. So at that point you have to distinguish between republicanism and fascism to prove that the system has moved from the former to the latter. And to do effectively it has to move beyond a descriptive account of current events. It needs to be done in a manner that delineates the basic criteria that distinguish political systems from one another and that based upon these criteria we have moved from one form of government to another in a proscriptive sense.

Alphaville
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Alphaville »

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:54 pm
And Progress is 99% communication
a whole lot of that going on in this thread :lol:

(not really. goddamn...)

ZAFCorrection
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by ZAFCorrection »

@alphaville

You may disagree with my logic, but I showed it to my satisfaction based on what I am thinking now. You are welcome to correct me if you find some flaw.

That being said, I think I showed it to be true because despite the fact that many of us are ready and willing to commit atrocities at any given point in time, it doesn't happen very often. That suggests some restraining force, which can safely be described as society. Thus, there does exist some regulatory force which must act to keep people in power, including presidents, from doing crazy shit.

The question before us is whether trump has the douchiness and the means to commit atrocities. Since he is a person who has also exhibited below-average maturity, we can be confident that he would try. The question then becomes whether his skill at achieving his desires is stronger than the restorative force of society. Based on what I can see, he is not a particularly adept politician beyond his ability to hammer the populist points that got him elected. It is also not clear that society is sufficiently damaged that a crazy person of even above-average political acumen could swoop in and have their way. If you disagree with those points, I would suggest arguing that trump does have more political ability or that our society is less able to resist him than I think.

If we do conclude that trump is not able to have his way, then I would say he is not a serious problem. Note that I am not saying you shouldn't vote for someone else. I have not really discussed solutions at all. Also note that I am saying that what we do only significantly matters in the aggregate. That has been a pretty orthodox opinion for most of recent history except when people want to freak out about a particular public figure. I find the behavior to be hypocritical.

Jason
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Jason »

After communism fell and records became assessable, distinguishing between Russia and Germany became harder - hence "Bloodlands." Russia calling itself Communist was a double edged sword. It justified German invasion and an unholy WW II alliance that led to the Cold War. Stalin was arguably the most powerful man who ever lived. That doesn't comfort with a Marxist definition of Communism. It's plainly fascism. Hitler utilized anarchy. Stalin utilized control.
Last edited by Jason on Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Hristo Botev »

Is it time for our Two Minutes Hate yet (or is this thread it)? To quote Wikipedia (sorry, I can't be creative this late in the day), we all need to gather "to vent [our] existential anguish and personal hatreds towards politically expedient enemies," including Goldstein, Snowball, Trotsky, racism, fascism, SJWs, white nationalists, BLM, black nationalists, kneeling athletes, athletes who refuse to kneel, Hitler, victims of cancel culture, proponents of cancel culture, Obama, Pelosi, McConnell, confederate traitors, slave-owning founders, AOC, Ted Yoho, Christopher Columbus, the Washington Redskins, and, of course, Trump.

Did I forget anyone/thing? If not, let's bring our chairs into the hallway and let the yelling begin.

Hristo Botev
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Hristo Botev »

Don't forget people who won't wear a mask. And people who say we have to wear a mask.

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Lemur
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Re: Assessing Federal agents deployed to Portland

Post by Lemur »

@Hristo
Don't forget people who won't wear a mask. And people who say we have to wear a mask.
So what you meant was fascists and antifa? :lol:

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