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The fixation on fascism is itself a gaslight. Might there have been another totalitarian ideology at that time? One that killed rather more people and did not end up entirely destroyed everywhere? Where did its supporters go?

ZAFCorrection wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:16 pm

Basically, you can put together technically-true sound bites to justify any narrative. The devil is in (all) the details.

sure. current liar in chief still sucks though. bigly.

here a detailed look about his public statements alone: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarko ... a2bf11e176

brought to you by that commie pinko rag, forbes magazine

This looks fun I hope the thread doesn’t gets nuked before I have a chance to read it after work.

As a conservative*, is there a silver lining in all of this that the left has/may finally become uncomfortable with an increasingly powerful federal executive branch, due to the right's election of a man to "lead" that branch who is completely lacking in both moral virtue and competence? More and more I'm seeing Democrat-run states and municipalities advocating for subsidiarity and home rule (see the Atlanta/Georgia mask lawsuit in the courts right now), which has historically been the small-government/conservative position. And I don't think it's just right-wing nutjob types who are going out and buying guns right now; I think a lot of first-time gunbuyer types are seeing the 2nd Am. for what it really is, a means to ensure individuals can protect themselves and their families/communities from corporate tyranny, mob/wokeness tyranny, or, yes, the tyranny-like actions of federal troops rounding up rioters in a major US city (or call them protesters, or whatever).

Did it take a Trump to finally put a stop to the erosion of the principles of federalism, by virtue of his own incompetence and fear-mongering?

If so, I say bravo to that! I would love for 2020 to be the year where we: (a) return to the principle of subsidiarity, strengthening the individual, community, and local government, and thereby weakening the federal gov's intrusion into our lives; and, AT THE SAME TIME (b) tear down the monuments of those Civil War traitors who claimed to champion states rights and home rule, but who were really just trying to perpetuate the sin of slavery.

*And, perhaps Jacob and ZAFCorrection, a member of the "low information right"?

ZAFCorrection wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:16 pm

Firing people, confiscating their property (not slaves), and keeping them in concentration camps for having anti-war opinions (Abraham Lincoln). And he goes down as the best president ever.

I'm surprised no one has shot the Lincoln Memorial in its head. Even if you don't agree with it on a symbolic level, it makes it more realistic.

nomadscientist wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:31 pm

The fixation on fascism is itself a gaslight. Might there have been another totalitarian ideology at that time? One that killed rather more people and did not end up entirely destroyed everywhere? Where did its supporters go?

don’t know if gaslight proper, but suggesting that everyone who opposes trump is a communist is a ridiculous aspersion.

the republican party establishment opposed him before his election.

then he hijacked the party, but still has many conservative opponents.

some of those opponents are cautious and remain hidden, but some are speaking publicly against him, like liz cheney or larry hogan. please tell me you know about these people?

I didn't say everyone who opposes Trump is a communist. I asked where the supporters of the other totalitarian movement from the 30s went. Some of them just died, some stuck to their ideology as it vanished. Some went elsewhere. Where was that?

nomadscientist wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:52 pm

I didn't say everyone who opposes Trump is a communist. I asked where the supporters of the other totalitarian movement from the 30s went. Some of them just died, some stuck to their ideology as it vanished. Some went elsewhere. Where was that?

no idea. the occupy kids were never as organized as the bolsheviks.

dums, chants, and extended camping.

The difference between calling someone a communist and a fascist is that fascism still exists.

How many people do you know, right now, literally digging their own graves by the hand of the government? Or being purposefully starved by the hand of the government? Personally, I don't know any. Let alone millions. How many fascist nations had to build a wall to keep people out? How many fascist nations provided financial support during a natural disaster?

is your argument that America is not a fascist state, or that it's the Greatest Fascist State, ever?

If you are going to employ a word like fascism, you have to demonstrate its applicability to the current situation and the historical use of the word is a necessary part of that discussion.

If you don't get over this idea that words have fixed meanings, I expect the next decade to go hard for you.

Yeah. The great recession was not the great depression. And 2020 USA is not 1930's Europe.

It's almost like the young have little appreciation for the subtlies of history, and little respect for the definition of words chosen by previous generations. Take a moment, think back. There was probably a moment in your own life that had similar angst, coupled with lack of appreciation, or respect.

Your assertation that "X is not Y, and is dissimilar to Y in these ways" reinforces your understanding of what Y means, but doesn't expand your knowledge of X in any way. Is this your intention?




Tldr: Of course the kids are angry, they SHOULD be angry. Of course they are wrong in the details, they are young, and our educational system allows for people to be wrong (never test their ideas in the real world) their whole career, teaching the whole time.

The business of progressives is to go on, making mistakes. The business of conservatives is to prevent those mistakes from being corrected.

G.K. Chesterton

It is the business of social media to amplify the signal of approval for extremists, causing the political wings to spread wide and far.

But no matter how wide the wingspan, politics is a bird that cannot fly.

Jason wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:57 pm

The difference between calling someone a communist and a fascist is that fascism still exists.

A difference in perception of reality - unfortunately, these are very rarely bridged by intellectual means.

@Alphaville

As a Marylander, Larry can afford to speak out against Trump because Maryland is basically moderate Democrat heavy and the Republicans we do have here are the 'rational Republican' types. Hogan has been brilliant as a Republican governor being constantly re-elected in a Democrat state because he walks that line very very well. Even his campaign marketing is essentially "I reach across both sides of the isle." He is generally well liked all around. His Father is also one (if not the first) Republican to come out and speak against Nixon during his administration. Reads like a storybook.

I'm only posting this because I feel like there might be a lot of Republicans representatives who want to speak out against Trump but can't because of the population that they represent...but I'm sure they will come out in droves once the numbers show it is the 'right' thing to do. I guess that is why Trump & CO speak very loudly about 'fake polls'.

@Riggerjack
'
How in the world could my argument be interpreted as saying the US is the greatest fascist state ever? Please, explain. In fucking detail.

And there is a difference between words evolving and words being drained of their original intent. For the rest of your elliptical nonsense, well, your knots of bullshit are never worth untying. I guess at least you get a laugh out of your flannel clad aphoristic tiresome tripe presented as wisdom.

Alphaville wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:36 pm

sure. current liar in chief still sucks though. bigly.

here a detailed look about his public statements alone: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarko ... a2bf11e176

brought to you by that commie pinko rag, forbes magazine

Yup. Trump is a dick. Politicians, being people, are dicks quite frequently. Some put on a show of never having had a negative thought in their lives. Others, either through extreme douchiness or ineptness, come as as huge d-bags in public.

But let's be clear about something. There is research out the ass indicating that we all have a lot of viciousness sitting somewhere in our psyche. It wasn't some monkey-typing-out-shakespeare cosmic accident that Hitler found a whole country full of crazies willing to go along with the Nazi agenda. Those people are everywhere at all times. Those people are us having this conversation. And yet somehow society keeps ticking along for the most part. So when you tell me you have discovered an Arch-douchebag and it's a big deal, I want to know how this time is different from five minutes ago. That means some systems analysis is required.

ZAFCorrection wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:54 pm

Yup. Trump is a dick. Politicians, being people, are dicks quite frequently. Some put on a show of never having had a negative thought in their lives. Others, either through extreme douchiness or ineptness, come as as huge d-bags in public.

But let's be clear about something. There is research out the ass indicating that we all have a lot of viciousness sitting somewhere in our psyche. It wasn't some monkey-typing-out-shakespeare cosmic accident that Hitler found a whole country full of crazies willing to go along with the Nazi agenda. Those people are everywhere at all times. Those people are us having this conversation. And yet somehow society keeps ticking along for the most part. So when you tell me you have discovered an Arch-douchebag and it's a big deal, I want to know how this time is different from five minutes ago. That means some systems analysis is required.

ssssssso... is this some sort of fatalism/nihilism you’re advocating?

if so—i think humans are a joke too, but i don’t share your ultrapassive approach. that just means “let someone else clean up this mess cuz i can’t be bothered.”

and no, i don’t see society “ticking along,” but breaking down actually. sure it has broken down before, then there’s damage, then there’s repair work...

so... no, sorry, not joining your non-movement. i mean, more power to you in your olympic detachment i guess, but i do feel i have a civic duty.

I guess at least you get a laugh out of your flannel clad aphoristic tiresome tripe presented as wisdom.

I do. And I genuinely hope your posts amuse you, as well.

Look. The streets are full of protestors who are angry because the world is unfair. They are not wrong. The world is indeed, not fair.

Their ideas about how to address this unfairness are laughable. But the unfairness, isn't.

To make clear the unfairness that has their attention, they employ hyperbole, rhetoric, and the social and emotional manipulation which are among the few tools our young are not deprived of in their youth. This means repurposing the words that have impact.

Nazi
Fascist
Racist.

Those are all charged words. If one has the interest in conveying an emotional idea, using words that come preloaded with an emotional charge is the no brainier technique.

Now if one has the ability, a well thought out essay may be more accurate, or insightful. But if you don't, well, there is always the list of precharged words...

Arguing with the choice of words, may make you feel better about your relationship with those words, but it doesn't get you any closer to understanding what the protestors are saying.

Maybe, that's your goal. Maintaining the meaning of those words. Maybe, you want to save those words for when they are needed. That's certainly your right.

Please, explain. In fucking detail.

The claim was advanced that America is going fascist.

You replied with a list of qualities entirely tangental to fascism that apply to America. None of these address the accusation of fascism. (Though it was a nice, well thought out list.)

My comment was just my amusement that I'm watching people talk past each other, and one interpretation of this would be if both non conflicting claims are true, then perhaps:

America is the Greatest Fascist State, ever!

Or maybe, just maybe, someone on the internet is making a mountain of a molehill.

ZAFCorrection wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:54 pm

But let's be clear about something. There is research out the ass indicating that we all have a lot of viciousness sitting somewhere in our psyche. It wasn't some monkey-typing-out-shakespeare cosmic accident that Hitler found a whole country full of crazies willing to go along with the Nazi agenda. Those people are everywhere at all times. Those people are us having this conversation.

Or, to borrow from Solzhenitsyn: "[T]he line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being."

Alphaville wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:08 pm

ssssssso... is this some sort of fatalism/nihilism you’re advocating?

I don't think it's being fatalistic/nihilistic to recognize human nature as human nature. You either think political systems can perfect or overcome human nature, which history (and especially the 20th century) has shown us over and over again won't work. Or, you take human nature as a given and devise political systems that disperse power as much as possible. Dispersing power is messy when there is a pandemic, when you'd probably benefit from a (competent) strong man. But then you're stuck with a strong man.

here’s a bit from news i just read. it’s from an opinion piece in a newspaper but the bit i’m quoting is factual:

this is how things go to hell:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... Fstory-ans

[...] a Canadian federal court ruling, which would scrap a 16-year-old bilateral treaty called the Safe Third Country Agreement, under which Canada and the United States each recognize the other as a safe place to seek refuge. Justice Ann Marie McDonald ruled that Canada’s practice of turning back third-country refugees who try to cross at official points of entry along the U.S.-Canada frontier — on the theory that they have already reached a safe harbor in the United States — no longer makes sense given the atrocious treatment to which they are subjected south of the border. Canada, she wrote, can no longer turn a blind eye to the reality that the United States denies decent and dignified treatment to asylum seekers.

Justice McDonald based her ruling partly on testimony from asylum seekers who described harrowing conditions of confinement in U.S. detention, to which they are automatically taken when turned back by Canada. One of them, a refugee from Ethiopia named Nedira Jemal Mustefa, recounted what she called a “terrifying, isolating and psychologically traumatic” experience at a “freezing” facility where she was held in upstate New York. Other testimony in the Canadian court provided evidence that detainees in U.S. facilities were denied access to counsel, phone calls and translators, and some were subjected to solitary confinement.

The judge found that the “accounts of the detainees demonstrate both physical and psychological suffering because of detention, and a real risk that they will not be able to assert asylum claims” in the United States.

i can’t even....

eta: this is the original news source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN24N2B2

@alphaville

I am advocating that a rigorous problem identification process be performed prior to determining a solution and then executing on it to solve the problem. Problem identification might result in it being found that there is no problem. The best solution might be to do nothing. In all cases, performing these first two steps takes time, which can lead to the perception that nothing is being done.

Read Don Quixote for an example of a complete rejection of utilizing the first two steps for problem solving. I guess you can say that at least the protagonist was getting shit done.