How do you see vices fitting into the scheme of ERE? Do you feel virtuous once you eradicate a bad habit? What about others' vices?
If you can afford the consequences of your actions would you still consider it a vice? If someone sharing your vices could not afford them, would you judge their value/s?
Vice Virtue and Value
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Freedom_2018
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One person's virtue could be another's vice.
As long as what I do (virtue or vice) does not knowingly cause harm to another it is all fine. Same applies to others.
If somebody can't afford their vice/virtue..and looks to others to fund it (parent, friends, credit card etc)..then I might not agree with their values.
As long as what I do (virtue or vice) does not knowingly cause harm to another it is all fine. Same applies to others.
If somebody can't afford their vice/virtue..and looks to others to fund it (parent, friends, credit card etc)..then I might not agree with their values.
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irononmaiden
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It's virtuous to have some vices. 
Like you guys have mentioned, I only consider something a true vice when it has repercussions that the person can't handle herself.
It's definitely a great feeling to conquer a bad habit, but that kind of change has to come from within. The word "vice" usually implies some kind of external pressure, and I don't think that usually leads to permanent change. (I grew up in a fundie church, so ... lots of anecdotal evidence.)
I still have plenty of non-ideal behavior in my ERE plan, and I'm totally okay with it. As long as I have opted out of the consumer lifestyle, have the right savings ratio, and am building self-sufficiency, I don't see any need to give up my lovely house, shopping at Whole Foods, or owning a paid-off car.
Very thought-provoking question! I've been stewing over it for the last hour.
Like you guys have mentioned, I only consider something a true vice when it has repercussions that the person can't handle herself.
It's definitely a great feeling to conquer a bad habit, but that kind of change has to come from within. The word "vice" usually implies some kind of external pressure, and I don't think that usually leads to permanent change. (I grew up in a fundie church, so ... lots of anecdotal evidence.)
I still have plenty of non-ideal behavior in my ERE plan, and I'm totally okay with it. As long as I have opted out of the consumer lifestyle, have the right savings ratio, and am building self-sufficiency, I don't see any need to give up my lovely house, shopping at Whole Foods, or owning a paid-off car.
Very thought-provoking question! I've been stewing over it for the last hour.
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Freedom_2018
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@hickchick:
"The general consensus around here seems a little extra-spartan to me. Which is ok in small doses, but quickly grows tedious and pedantic if applied too stringently"...I agree there is some truth to that.
In general most folks here seem to have a rather serious demeanor. I think some of it comes from the J in INTJ (which many of them are). Not that there is anything wrong with it since from whatever I know about INTJs (have a brother), they are pretty serious and achievement oriented about whatever is important to them. And ERE/frugality/efficiency/financial independence is important to folks on this forum.
In my case (INTP) and I am sure for many other folks while we are committed to being Financially Independent as soon as possible...that is not the sole purpose of existence. Life is to be enjoyed and experienced richly. Luckily most of the things I like (long rides, walks, observing nature, stargazing) don't necessarily take much money but certainly need free time. That is the primary reason I am saving my money...to buy my freedom from wage labor.
Sure we can all lighten up a bit (why do you think I started the "Do we really need toilet paper" thread
"The general consensus around here seems a little extra-spartan to me. Which is ok in small doses, but quickly grows tedious and pedantic if applied too stringently"...I agree there is some truth to that.
In general most folks here seem to have a rather serious demeanor. I think some of it comes from the J in INTJ (which many of them are). Not that there is anything wrong with it since from whatever I know about INTJs (have a brother), they are pretty serious and achievement oriented about whatever is important to them. And ERE/frugality/efficiency/financial independence is important to folks on this forum.
In my case (INTP) and I am sure for many other folks while we are committed to being Financially Independent as soon as possible...that is not the sole purpose of existence. Life is to be enjoyed and experienced richly. Luckily most of the things I like (long rides, walks, observing nature, stargazing) don't necessarily take much money but certainly need free time. That is the primary reason I am saving my money...to buy my freedom from wage labor.
Sure we can all lighten up a bit (why do you think I started the "Do we really need toilet paper" thread
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Beaudacious
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For me it will be to brew my own. I have done so for $1/gal but the cheap stuff gets old after a while. Hard stuff reduces that amount by 1/4 to 1/8 the amount, therefore increasing the cost by in the same fraction. This means ERE will likely help reduce the vice hold in my life or keep me working another year to afford it. This might be yet another good moral reason to pursue ERE:) To reduce our vices, or at least to consider the magnitude of our vices. Likely many vices come with much more health costs.
@hickchick
"extra-spartan"???
I am not sure what this means. If it is trying to capture the idea that I am not as virtuous because I cling to my truck and have not yet replaced it with a rebuilt bicycle, then I get that vibe. Whenever something gets quantified, a competative streak can enter in: I did 100 pull-ups! Yeah, well I did 110, so there. While there is some of that occasionally in the forums, I am struck by how civil the discussions are. I call to mind the discussion of tatoos and ERE. It was informative but devoid of a lot of the typical name calling and judgmental recrimination. IRL I work with a group of people who predominately associate tatoos with lower social status; and they aren't shy about expressing an opinion in that regard. I don't necessarily want to defend tatoos, but I do want to defend a person's right to have them.
In short, I am an avid participant in these forums despite being overweight and unfit, older than most, and less willing to sacrifice for the sake of a higher savings rate. No one would confuse me with Jacob. But I don't feel excluded, judged or belittled here. I think we've all experienced blogs that have comment streams with profound antagonisms, exacerbated by the anonymity of the net.
If on the other hand, extra-spartan means seeking excellence (arete), like the actual Greeks of ancient Sparta, then I'd say a number of us do seem to have adopted a preference for Stoic philosophy and living an examined-life. But I cannot see anything objectionable about that, or even in saying that others should try to do it as well. It's like the paleo diet. It works for me. I think it'd be good for others. I don't hate on anyone for eating wheat; please don't hate on me for eating meat.
While it is true that virtue is opposed to vice in the abstract sense, concretely speaking no one chooses vicious behavior because it is a vice. We do things because we perceive them leading to something good. I choose to drink alcohol because I enjoy its effect on my central nervous system; not because I want to drive impaired, verbally or physically abuse another person, or damage my liver. Nevertheless, all of the latter consequences can flow from habitually drinking just for the pleasant effect. It is when the consequences of the vice are more immediately apparent that the underlying behavior becomes objectionable. Who would choose to do something in the absolute knowledge that it will inexorably be detrimental?
"extra-spartan"???
I am not sure what this means. If it is trying to capture the idea that I am not as virtuous because I cling to my truck and have not yet replaced it with a rebuilt bicycle, then I get that vibe. Whenever something gets quantified, a competative streak can enter in: I did 100 pull-ups! Yeah, well I did 110, so there. While there is some of that occasionally in the forums, I am struck by how civil the discussions are. I call to mind the discussion of tatoos and ERE. It was informative but devoid of a lot of the typical name calling and judgmental recrimination. IRL I work with a group of people who predominately associate tatoos with lower social status; and they aren't shy about expressing an opinion in that regard. I don't necessarily want to defend tatoos, but I do want to defend a person's right to have them.
In short, I am an avid participant in these forums despite being overweight and unfit, older than most, and less willing to sacrifice for the sake of a higher savings rate. No one would confuse me with Jacob. But I don't feel excluded, judged or belittled here. I think we've all experienced blogs that have comment streams with profound antagonisms, exacerbated by the anonymity of the net.
If on the other hand, extra-spartan means seeking excellence (arete), like the actual Greeks of ancient Sparta, then I'd say a number of us do seem to have adopted a preference for Stoic philosophy and living an examined-life. But I cannot see anything objectionable about that, or even in saying that others should try to do it as well. It's like the paleo diet. It works for me. I think it'd be good for others. I don't hate on anyone for eating wheat; please don't hate on me for eating meat.
While it is true that virtue is opposed to vice in the abstract sense, concretely speaking no one chooses vicious behavior because it is a vice. We do things because we perceive them leading to something good. I choose to drink alcohol because I enjoy its effect on my central nervous system; not because I want to drive impaired, verbally or physically abuse another person, or damage my liver. Nevertheless, all of the latter consequences can flow from habitually drinking just for the pleasant effect. It is when the consequences of the vice are more immediately apparent that the underlying behavior becomes objectionable. Who would choose to do something in the absolute knowledge that it will inexorably be detrimental?
@Freedom - As another INTP, I totally get you. I really lack the internal motivation to complete projects. I am completely OK with this, but others like to turn it into a character flaw. "lazy" "flighty" - pssht
PS I have never felt the urge to engage in debate about the philisophical merits of NOT contributing to society.
Like Beaudacious, I find that my vices are the real spice of life, and I have more and more compasssion for those that take it a little too far. I'm grateful that I'm not in a position to where my vices control me. I just feel like that's more about the luck of the draw than any particular strength of character. (Luck that I had decent parents and a relatively wealthy upbringing, etc.)
PS I have never felt the urge to engage in debate about the philisophical merits of NOT contributing to society.
Like Beaudacious, I find that my vices are the real spice of life, and I have more and more compasssion for those that take it a little too far. I'm grateful that I'm not in a position to where my vices control me. I just feel like that's more about the luck of the draw than any particular strength of character. (Luck that I had decent parents and a relatively wealthy upbringing, etc.)
@Maus - just some stuff off the top of my head while I work on a more cogent response.
The arete business is fabulous for others, but it's never going to ring my bell. Get on down with your bad selves.
It's more the idea that indulgence should only come after (sometimes severe) deprivation. And it's not just here, it's the world in general. e.g. I save 90% of my income and work out six days a week so I can enjoy a frosty beverage/narcotic/ice cream, etc. Why don't you do all of those things so you won't be such a drunk/junkie/fattie?
Mainly I'm just coming to the realization that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is much easier said than done. So why all the romanticism surrounding it?
The arete business is fabulous for others, but it's never going to ring my bell. Get on down with your bad selves.
It's more the idea that indulgence should only come after (sometimes severe) deprivation. And it's not just here, it's the world in general. e.g. I save 90% of my income and work out six days a week so I can enjoy a frosty beverage/narcotic/ice cream, etc. Why don't you do all of those things so you won't be such a drunk/junkie/fattie?
Mainly I'm just coming to the realization that pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is much easier said than done. So why all the romanticism surrounding it?
@hickchick
Unlike a lot of people here, I consider myself more of a hedonist than a stoic.
I made a study of most systems of ethics throughout my undergrad years and, after finding assumptions I couldn't be sure of and leaps of logic that I didn't find convincing in pretty much every ethical system I studied, I have finally resigned myself to simply maximizing my own pleasure.
It's not that I've been convinced by a logical argument that a hedonistic approach is the best, but rather, I have failed to be convinced that any other approach is any better. And so, I may as well choose the system that maximizes pleasure, since I like pleasure.
A lot of people confuse hedonism with "carpe diem!" or just partying all the time. But I seek to maximize pleasure not just in the present, but in the future and throughout the entire span of my life, which means considering the hang over in the morning, or what shape my body will be in when I'm 60. It also isn't entirely a selfish system because it gives me pleasure to be charitable towards others and to be respected for my honesty and fair-dealing. It's also compatible with meditation and prayer, since those things can bring peace and calm which is also pleasurable.
But unlike some other ethical systems, the goal is not to be emotionless or hyper-rational, and virtue is only valued in so much as it adds to one's lifetime of pleasure, rather than for the sake of itself.
That said. I have no vices. If I thought something was hurting me, or minimizing my long-term pleasure, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't even be tempted to do it. There's nothing I do that I wish I didn't.
But I do do lots of things other people might see as vices. Like enjoying tobacco, alcohol, french cooking, recreational drugs, sleeping a lot, indulgent non pro-creative sex. But I enjoy them, incorporating all available scientific knowledge, so as to maximize the pleasure I will feel while using them today, but minimizing their long-term effects which could take away the pleasantness of my later years. Are there risks? Sure. But I've concluded, after much analysis, that indulging in a calculated manner in some of these things is still a net gain of lifetime pleasure.
And it's all compatible with early financial independence since I do almost all my own growing, brewing and cooking.
And sure, I could have "lived it up" in my 20's by drinking more expensive liquors more often, or smoking more expensive cigars, or by buying flashy cars and going on expensive trips to Europe like some people I know. And that would definitely be pleasurable for me...for about a minute. Whereas investing the money is going to bring me a good (hopefully) 50 to 60 years of work-free pleasure.
Unlike a lot of people here, I consider myself more of a hedonist than a stoic.
I made a study of most systems of ethics throughout my undergrad years and, after finding assumptions I couldn't be sure of and leaps of logic that I didn't find convincing in pretty much every ethical system I studied, I have finally resigned myself to simply maximizing my own pleasure.
It's not that I've been convinced by a logical argument that a hedonistic approach is the best, but rather, I have failed to be convinced that any other approach is any better. And so, I may as well choose the system that maximizes pleasure, since I like pleasure.
A lot of people confuse hedonism with "carpe diem!" or just partying all the time. But I seek to maximize pleasure not just in the present, but in the future and throughout the entire span of my life, which means considering the hang over in the morning, or what shape my body will be in when I'm 60. It also isn't entirely a selfish system because it gives me pleasure to be charitable towards others and to be respected for my honesty and fair-dealing. It's also compatible with meditation and prayer, since those things can bring peace and calm which is also pleasurable.
But unlike some other ethical systems, the goal is not to be emotionless or hyper-rational, and virtue is only valued in so much as it adds to one's lifetime of pleasure, rather than for the sake of itself.
That said. I have no vices. If I thought something was hurting me, or minimizing my long-term pleasure, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't even be tempted to do it. There's nothing I do that I wish I didn't.
But I do do lots of things other people might see as vices. Like enjoying tobacco, alcohol, french cooking, recreational drugs, sleeping a lot, indulgent non pro-creative sex
. But I enjoy them, incorporating all available scientific knowledge, so as to maximize the pleasure I will feel while using them today, but minimizing their long-term effects which could take away the pleasantness of my later years. Are there risks? Sure. But I've concluded, after much analysis, that indulging in a calculated manner in some of these things is still a net gain of lifetime pleasure.And it's all compatible with early financial independence since I do almost all my own growing, brewing and cooking.
And sure, I could have "lived it up" in my 20's by drinking more expensive liquors more often, or smoking more expensive cigars, or by buying flashy cars and going on expensive trips to Europe like some people I know. And that would definitely be pleasurable for me...for about a minute. Whereas investing the money is going to bring me a good (hopefully) 50 to 60 years of work-free pleasure.
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Beaudacious
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Someone with some degree of desire to suicide. It's not that you don't care: when life doesn't make much sense, you like to damage yourself. At least that's my experience.
- bigato
I don't necessarily think "desire of suicide" is at play when people knowingly do things that are detrimental. Some people would argue that you're laughing in the face of death.
- bigato
I don't necessarily think "desire of suicide" is at play when people knowingly do things that are detrimental. Some people would argue that you're laughing in the face of death.
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Beaudacious
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I guess in the grand scheme of things, I think we all want some barrier to get over. Whether it be a vice (and I define vice as a habit that is perceived by society as evil/bad), a disadvantage, historical baggage, "the system", etc., there is something about overcoming that makes our storied lives feel personal and significant. We do feed on "the struggle" at some point.
On vices though... as we can see, there are many interpretations of what a vice is and isn't. Sort of like what is ethical. It's all personal.
On vices though... as we can see, there are many interpretations of what a vice is and isn't. Sort of like what is ethical. It's all personal.
@All - thanks for your responses. Definitely food for thought.
Life has been serving me a big ol' batch of fail lately, so I wanted to be in a better frame of mind before I responded.
Mostly I posed the question because I've been racking my brains trying to come up with the answer to the question: "What am I doing wrong?" The truth is I am doing many things "wrong", but I have chosen them for a reason.
Maus made the point that we don't choose vicious behavior because it's a vice. I could live in a smaller house, for instance, but then the band wouldn't have a place to practice. (Hopefully we'll work out a tour soon and not have to worry about that, eh?)
Much of this is tied to the deterioration of my job situation. Thankfully, I made the choice to live the ERE lifestyle before my income took a nosedive. Woo, conscious effort! But now, I'm not making any progress and it's not nearly as fulfilling.
There is a little remaining fat to be trimmed in my budget, but I know that cutting back more would be miserable. I just feel constantly bombarded with the message that the problem is my unwillingness to give up those last remaining luxuries. Or, you know, my pride for not taking the next minimum wage job that comes along.
This makes me have some extra sympathy for my fellows that aren't living in the Randian utopia the local republicans like to talk about. How much virtue is really needed to get ahead? To me, it's just as much about the breaks you get (and, yes yes, make for yourself) as it is about the discipline and "virtue" you apply to the problem.
Hopefully this is somewhat coherent. Night shift. Bleh.
Life has been serving me a big ol' batch of fail lately, so I wanted to be in a better frame of mind before I responded.
Mostly I posed the question because I've been racking my brains trying to come up with the answer to the question: "What am I doing wrong?" The truth is I am doing many things "wrong", but I have chosen them for a reason.
Maus made the point that we don't choose vicious behavior because it's a vice. I could live in a smaller house, for instance, but then the band wouldn't have a place to practice. (Hopefully we'll work out a tour soon and not have to worry about that, eh?)
Much of this is tied to the deterioration of my job situation. Thankfully, I made the choice to live the ERE lifestyle before my income took a nosedive. Woo, conscious effort! But now, I'm not making any progress and it's not nearly as fulfilling.
There is a little remaining fat to be trimmed in my budget, but I know that cutting back more would be miserable. I just feel constantly bombarded with the message that the problem is my unwillingness to give up those last remaining luxuries. Or, you know, my pride for not taking the next minimum wage job that comes along.
This makes me have some extra sympathy for my fellows that aren't living in the Randian utopia the local republicans like to talk about. How much virtue is really needed to get ahead? To me, it's just as much about the breaks you get (and, yes yes, make for yourself) as it is about the discipline and "virtue" you apply to the problem.
Hopefully this is somewhat coherent. Night shift. Bleh.