nomadscientist wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:47 pm
Jacob seems to be somewhat inside the ideology bubble (Wheaton level 1) but also somewhat seeing the big picture mechanically (Wheaton level 4). People should indeed take a look, from the outside as much as they can, at how vulnerable they are and make a judgement how they think this is likely to progress. It is passing from the stage where you try to influence the outcome into the stage where you try to survive.
Yes, 1 and 4. It's almost paradoxical, but it's a rather deliberate survival strategy on my part. There's a Swedish concept called an opinion corridor [of popular opinion] where the point is to navigate it w/o crashing into the sides. In order to stay centered, one has to know where the Overton boundaries are and adjust accordingly. That doesn't mean it can't be steered, but there's a right time and place to do so.
Consider how the forum is being moderated. There are indeed people with a chip on their shoulder. They don't have an agenda but rather an agenda has them and they see it as the most interesting thing in the world---there's no other right way. They will always defend their agenda if they feel threatened. They're the sheep-dogs of their agenda. If someone makes a point or a slogan, e.g. "Black Lives Matter" they can not help themselves to counter with "Blue/All Lives Matter". They literally do not see the effect this has on others or how saying it reflects back on themselves depending on who hears it. Insofar they do see it, they don't care. I don't know how this fits into Wheaton levels, but in terms of Kegan, it corresponds to the imperial mind (level 2). Purity matters because they see themselves as representing that. These are the ones spoiling for a fight because they're looking to prove a point regardless of how much it matters or how ridiculous the argument gets as long as they remain consistent with their principles. They're prepared to die on their hill or find another hill to attack or defend. When two opposing agendas meet in a debate, I know I'll spend the rest of the day doing damage control. When it happens IRL, it results in videos and shitstorms on twitter.
There's also the sportsball voters. They don't have an ideology as much as they're on a team or a political party. Of course that's an ideology in and of itself, but it's not nearly as sophomoric as the paragraph above. They belong to a party and this requires them to most importantly a) defend that party from attacks (by pointing out similar bad things about the other party); and less importantly b) have and follow the ideology ostensibly being representative of the party. As countless survey's show, the latter is not nearly as important and voters are really good at joining a party that is against their personal interests and beliefs. In the grand scheme of things (wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep), these are the sheep---the technical term being low-information voters. Properly socialized adults or in Kegan terms, level 3. This is the middle class, who don't care enough about politics to engage in culture wars. Voting is enough for them. They might say some shit about the other party, but they don't really care, and if you do engage (as a sheepdog), all they have to offer back is whataboutism or "lol idk shrug" reactions which is code for wanting to end the political debate. You can end it the same way. This stuff is pretty easy to moderate and in terms of behavior, these guys are pretty easy to get along with as long as one doesn't stir the shit pot.
Then there are people who have bona fide ideologies, that is, beliefs they've constructed themselves. Not to be confused with those who've adopted an agenda. The difference between the two is that ideologists will usually allow for exceptions and they will change their minds if they're given the right argument at the right time by the right person. They are aware of the opinion corridor so to speak. If they hold views outside the Overton window, they know how to keep it for themselves insofar they're not in sympathetic company. In the US they'd describe themselves as Independents (despite voting consistently for the same party). The group above would dismiss them as RINOs or DINOs or closet-Republicans/Democrats. To a large degree, the person here has adopted their ideology based on their situation. They stand where they sit. As their situation changes, they'll change their ideology to reflect that. If they bring new people into their orbit with different values, their ideology might also change to reflect that. For example, a person might be against LGBT rights until a child comes out gay at which point the ideology is changed to resolve the cognitive dissonance. A person who receives a windfall might experience a sudden change in their opinion on the capital gains tax. A healthy person who got sick might start questioning their ideology on health care. Politics in this crowd reflect their lives, situations, and who they are and how they live. In Kegan terms, they're self-authoring. In the US they vote according to who best represents their interests with the understanding that they can't get everything. In the political vernacular these are high-information voters. However, this vernacular can be misleading because the agenda driven crowd is also highly informed in terms of absolute quantity.
And then there are people for whom ideology is just a tool(*) or an abstraction. Some politicians demonstrate the ability to wield different tools when off camera which is highly refreshing. This would be a person who can describe an opponent's position in a way that that person would find fair. Also see campaign operators. The group above typically can't do that because they don't have enough experience with ideologies other than their own. The group two steps above definitely can't do it because their perspective of "other ideologies" is that of the enemy, so while they can make a description, the person would hardly find it fair. (e.g. "A socialist is a person who hates America".) These guys have opinions, of course, but they're hard to pin down. I don't really encounter this attitude until I worked in finance, where the perspective of politics was very much one of what [market] consequences the clashing ideologies would have. The reason being that insofar the trader got it right, they would make money either way. Contrast this with the group above who only benefits if the ideology is aligned. (Metaphorically, a trader makes money whether the market goes up and down. A buy&hold investor only makes money when the market goes up. The former is agnostic. The latter is religious.). Seeing ideology as a competing or collaborating tools describes the interconnected mind. At this point, it does get frustrating seeing people dying on hills to attack or defend agendas. Why are they willingly banging their heads against the wall? (Of course you know why---the frustrating part is that they don't) Ditto the meme-sharing or talking point repeating sportball fans. However, from the point of running/moderating the forum, I am trying to guide it into the direction of being an interconnected mind. That is, one that is smarter with us together as well as one that will if not elevate people out of developing their politics according to their own beliefs but see politics as something (a process) that includes all people. Effectively, by trying to discourage sportsball fandom, pushing back on agendas (I have nukes), and pushing/pulling on ideologies to get people to see a bit more than their current spot.
(*) Rare masters of this can build new tools or change or refactor a tool completely. These individuals can either be highly dangerous or highly beneficial.
In that regard, staying within the opinion corridor is pretty easy, because regardless of how people deal with their political thinking, there are still some "absolute" rules one can count on and which people rarely diverge from. In particular, the one known as the golden rule which various philosophies and religions have each phrased in remarkably similar ways. Just remember to consider the other(s) as people too. (I prefer the Rawlsian formulation of justice.) The second one being "recognize and avoid trouble". Whenever someone gets hung out to dry by public opinion, it's usually because they forget both.
TL;DR - I talked about both how I set my own political values (the
true neutral corridor) + a general framework for how I think political values develop/evolve. They're likely mutually reinforcing/codeveloped. I did not start out thinking this way. I very much used to be one of those pestering individuals who thought I held the [libertarian] keys to the universe.