COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

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thrifty++
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by thrifty++ »

@GTOO - fair enough. Im not as concerned about Russia, but that definitely be next in line of worry. Im not as worried about India. China has been given more of any chance than anywhere on the planet with everything being handed to it on a plate and it has still been cocked right up royally. Just because you keep kissing a frog doesn't mean it will turn into a prince. Despite its economic ascendancy, not much in the way of positive development has come with that. Just a lot of negatives.

Im not so worried about Trump as I don't know that he has as much power as is perceived. He has power with his words which is the scariest part as he is so bad with them. He does not at all think before he talks. I do like the current government policies on returning some manufacturing to the US though and on taking a hard line approach on Chinse imports, rather than just being complacent about them.

white belt
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by white belt »

@thrifty++

Although I don't consider myself a panda hugger, I do believe your views are lacking some nuance. I'm American so I'm going to highlight some comparisons to my home country since I am most familiar with it out of all western countries.

You make some valid points and agree with the points about human rights violations, lack of free press, and corruption. But I'm going to highlight a few that I think are partial truths or at least lack some context:

thrifty++ wrote:There is very little innovation and development. See the utter lack of nobel prizes. Despite the huge population and wealth, China does not even have a scratch of a fraction on the west
There is plenty of innovation and development in China. I don't think Nobel Prizes are a good measure of innovation for an entire country and the process is highly politicized anyway. Keep in mind, that in the USA most innovation in STEM fields is driven by foreign grad students (the majority of whom come from China) since native born Americans have little interest in the subjects. Now it is true that there is a long history of Chinese companies stealing intellectual property related to American companies, and then using it to develop a knock off version. Nevertheless, there is still lots of innovation organic to China.

I think comparing the democratization of Japan to China is not exactly apples to apples. The US physically destroyed most of the infrastructure in Japan, along with killing a lot of it's population, and helped to rebuild Japan because we were too afraid to let Japan maintain their own military and we felt maybe slightly guilty about using nuclear weapons on civilian populations.

On the other hand, the USA mostly left China to fend for itself against Japanese aggression during WWII. We then backed the probably lesser of 2 evils but still corrupt Jiang Kai-Shek regime during the Chinese Civil War and that didn't exactly go over well. We then fought against Chinese forces during the Korean War. Then we broke off all communication with China for ~25 years when they went through significant political and social upheaval to include the deadliest famine in history. And now Westerners are surprised China doesn't want to adopt ("morally superior") Western ideals?

thrifty++ wrote:There is a widespread lack of respect for animal welfare. They still hoard dogs in cages and slaughter for food FFS. Its fashionable, popular and acceptable to carry around live turtles inside bottles of water on your key chain FFS. It seems like in China people will eat any animal they can get their hands on with no regard for how that comes about. And we all know about the wet markets. There is a continuing lack of hygiene standards. These two issues alone were the cause of this whole pandemic on the most generous view of what caused it. It has still failed to engage in environmentally safe and sustainable production methods and ravaged its own environment as a result
Dog meat in China is not nearly as widespread as Westerners believe and consumption has been declining for the past decade. Dogs are quite popular as pets in China and many Chinese people refuse to eat dog meat. Also keep in mind that the dogs that are eaten are raised as livestock for that express purpose, not Fido from down the street. Most westerners have no problem eating pigs, chicken, lamb, ducks, and rabbit, all of which are also sometimes kept as pets. Pigs may be more intelligent than dogs and they are hoarded in cages for slaughter in every western country.

You are correct that Chinese cuisine incorporates a wide variety of animal products from a wide variety of sources. This is due to a high population density since ancient times, which also meant frequent famines. There is way more food waste in western countries since western cuisine generally does not incorporate nearly as many parts of the animal. I do agree that given the COVID19 outbreak, I'd like to see an end to wet markets and exotic animal consumption.

I'd hardly say the US has engaged in environmentally safe and sustainable production. More like we just exported the unsafe practices to poor countries who now do our manufacturing for us. The US also has the benefit of 1/4 of the population of China on a comparable geographical area. That means we have a little more buffer against environmental effects. With the rollback of EPA regulations I have a feeling we will see a return to unsafe air quality and water quality in the USA (although we will be slow to realize it since the organizations that test such things are being defunded). There are places in the USA that do not have safe drinking water (e.g.: few people drink tap water in northwest Ohio because of fertilizer runoff from nearby farmlands). But more so, clean drinking water is no easy task for enormous populations, hence why India and China have such issues with it.

thrifty++ wrote: China's economy is an empty shell which is reliant on globalisation to keep it functioning. I don't think China is self sufficient as a successful country at all.
I'm pretty sure every economy in the world apart from North Korea is dependent on globalization to keep functioning. The US certainly is not self-sufficient.

thrifty++ wrote:And if I am wrong about all this and China is going to increase in power, how do you feel about China being in the place of power in the world? Does that seem like a world you want to live in?
China has always been in a place of power. It just was dealing with domestic strife for much of the 19th and 20th century, which led it to temporarily take a step back from the global stage. They are the superpower that stands in opposition to open democratic interests in east Asia and the Pacific, just like Russia is a superpower that serves as a foil for the democracies of Europe. And just like it does in NATO, the USA's military force projection is one of the things that can keep China in check. From the USA perspective, we should be working closely with our allies in the region like South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Australia, NZ, etc to counter some of the rising Chinese influence.

I hope the USA doesn't enter into a cold war like we did with the USSR, but that may already be inevitable. China is much more of a formidable foe economically and militarily than the USSR ever was. I'm a believer that realpolitik is a better arrangement.

In an ideal world, everyone would be free and we'd end war and world hunger and blah blah blah. But that's not the world we live in. China is asserting it's influence as a superpower, just like the USA and British Empire did for hundreds of years. I don't think boycotting them is going to make much of a difference, but that's just my opinion and fully support an individual's choice to do what they want. I don't want to live under Chinese authoritarian control obviously.

If you want to learn more about China, I encourage you to check out the Sinica podcast. They produce informative content on a range of topics related to contemporary China.
Last edited by white belt on Sat May 16, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

white belt
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by white belt »

Also slightly unrelated, but China is probably the most important factor in the equation to deal with the North Korea situation. Western countries and our allies should want to stay on decent terms so we have a multi-national response to deal with that shit show when/if it blows over. China shares a large border with North Korea, so they will bear the brunt of the humanitarian crisis along with South Korea.

slowtraveler
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by slowtraveler »

I guess white belt hasn't heard of the Mongolian empire, the opium wars, or the fact that China has constantly alternated between a single country and many fragmented smaller countries. Its collapse in power is common.

The dictatorship has millions of people in concentration camps, is starving millions of people right now through dams on the Mekong and attacking boats fishing in their own waters (ie - Vietnam, Philippines), and breaks nearly every promise they make. They don't respect other countries, they do what they want with North Korea so it's of no use trying to buddy up with a murderous psychopath.

We're already in a cold war with them. In 2018 it was declared officially in Chinese media.

Dog meat is far more common than you seem to know, available very readily in any city. The only times I saw dog meat in Vietnam were along the Chinese border. It's disgusting.

Aside from Huawei, I don't know of any products regarding as high quality designed by Chinese in China.

Also, democracy is a Middle Eastern, not Western idea. The first recorded instance was in Sumer.

white belt
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by white belt »

@slowtraveler @thrifty++

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that I agree with Alphaville that it's probably more useful to focus on the issues that are important to you, rather than throwing out blanket demonization for an entire country and its people. The reason is blanket loaded statements like I've heard in some posts on this thread tend to boil down into tribalism; us vs them, good vs bad, familiar vs foreign. I'm arguing that this mindset not only oversimplifies things, but also leads to more xenophobic rhetoric which is how we go down the path to armed conflict. China is not inherently evil, nor are Chinese people inherently evil, however both China and some Chinese people do evil things sometimes. The tone from thrifty's posts sounds like he believes China is an evil place and nothing good ever comes from the country. This has manifested itself as a fear of Chinese tourists in his country, which again is how we go down this slippery slope to xenophobia. How long until we have attacks on Asian people in Western countries?

If we look at things from the perspective of actual issues instead of just anti-China rhetoric, then you will find you are going to have to boycott a lot more places than just China.

-Human rights violations? Well you probably should also boycott Russia, Turkey, Venezuela, and Saudi Arabia.
-Dog meat consumption? That means Vietnam, South Korea, the Philippines, Nigeria are on the list.
-No representative democracy? Well that's also the case in most of the Middle East and Africa.
-Aggressive/questionable border enforcement? Israel, India, and Pakistan partake in that.
-Mass incarceration based on race? Well the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world fueled by systemic discrimination against non-whites.

Certainly boycotting one country is a start, but it will probably take a systems thinking approach if you really want to follow a consistent philosophy.

I am quite familiar with Chinese history and delving deeper gets us into the realm of Chinese identity, which is quite complex and probably will just derail this thread. The one point I'll make is it gets tricky when you try to think of China as a 3000 year old country, because modern China has somewhat arbitrary borders drawn around regions that don't have a ton of historical precedence (such as Xinjiang, inner Mongolia, and Tibet). Minority groups in China generally identify with their ethnic group before identifying as citizens of the country of China.

RealPerson
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by RealPerson »

white belt wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:09 pm

I am quite familiar with Chinese history and delving deeper gets us into the realm of Chinese identity, which is quite complex and probably will just derail this thread.
Why not start a new thread with this topic? I would love to learn more about China and its people. If you are knowledgeable and would like to share, that would be great.

I visited China, including Tibet, the year before the Beijing Olympics. We traveled on our own, not part of a group. It was a great trip and interesting, but I have no desire to go back. I found Chinese people very rude and unpolished, at least as seen though western eyes. I am sure there is a lot of cultural blindness on my part here.

slowtraveler
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by slowtraveler »

Back to the originalbtopic-I found the answer to my question: Asus and Acer are Taiwanese brands and have some quality products.

For phones, Samsung seems the best. I previously wrote Oppo as well but upon further research, it is also manufactured in China.

@whitebelt
There is no forced organ harvesting or cultural genocide in any of those countries.

Never mind the fact that they aren't attacking our way of life within our own home. The Chinese dictatorship is literally attacking democracy from within universities and companies, stealing taxpayer dollars in the process through programs like the thousand talents and Confucius institutes, while stifling freedom of speech and inciting violence against pro democracy protestors.

Seeing most of Vietnam, I never once saw dog meat for sale except for along the border with China, and I went to many fresh markets. They're also not creating the demand for hunting rhinos, elephants, and many endangered animals to the brink of extinction.

Anti foreigner racism is applauded in China at the moment. You know we don't stand for that here and you and I both wouldn't eat at a restaurant that said no blacks but the Chinese are doing it every day. A McDonald's in Guangzhou was forced to put a sign up with those words. China has way more people incarcerated than their numbers show. They have far more crime. It's just not reported.

You seem sensitive, a lot of your points are tangential. You got a good heart somewhere in there, try to see past the propaganda.
Last edited by slowtraveler on Mon May 18, 2020 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by thrifty++ »

@ White_belt - some fair points. However how do you champion your issues without boycotting?

The reason I am boycotting China is not just some of the issues mentioned that you have related to those other countries. Its come from what is occurring right now with the pandemic. Some of those things mentioned to have contributed to that. And how the Chinese government has behaved since this began. Those other countries are not a threat. So China is all of that AND all those other problems.

The west has made China rich. And it can turn that tap off. Which is the reason for the boycott. And Im not alone here. We can see this happening on a global scale both in production and consumption.

Armed conflict would be shit. Bigtime. That's why I would rather see the rest of the world turn the tap off. Which it is doing. Focus on the economics.

@slowtraveler - thanks for researching and setting out those details of not made in China products. That will be useful for future reference.
Last edited by thrifty++ on Mon May 18, 2020 2:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by thrifty++ »

More than 110 countries have now backed the independent investigation into COVID19. China has been boycotting Australian products over initiating the push for this inquiry. The countries backing this inquiry include the entire EU, Russia and the entire African continent. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/l ... ca358f8e4b
Last edited by thrifty++ on Mon May 18, 2020 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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fiby41
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by fiby41 »

@slowtraveller is Aspire the same as Acer or is that a separate company and Acer has a product range with same name?
This is due to a high population density since ancient times, which also meant frequent famines.
Population density of China is lower than India. 80-20 rule applies. There is a city in Manchuria and one to their South West whose names I forget. If you join those, 80% of the population is to east of that line and 20% to the west while the area to the east is 80% and west is 20%. Population density of the Indian Subcontinent is even higher and China without the 'roof of the world' Tibetan Plateau slightly higher.

A third of the population of Bengal (10 million, today's Bangladesh + West Bengal) perished during the Great Bengal Famine by 1773. 3 million starved in Bengal alone in 1934.

High population density does not cause famines. Bengal was the first to fall to British so bad policy, 59% tax on food produce, tax collection in inflatable cash instead of percentage from crop actually produced, diversion of farmland to produce Opium for China caused the first while feeding troops in Egypt during WW2, all of the above minus opium plus policy of 'they're a beastly people with a beastly religion' ~Churchill caused the second. Yet none of these 'beastly people' slaughtered wildlife in say the adjacent Sunderbuns.

So neither of the points
1 population density causes famines
2 famines cause wildlife consumption
Stand on scrutiny.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by thrifty++ »

Parts of Europe are also more densely populated than China as well.

Yes some westerners eat pork. But I think dogs is quite a different thing. Through years of targeted breeding we have made dogs what they are today, domesticated in the extreme and almost completely dependent upon us. So much so that dogs have a significantly greater connection with humans than other dogs and that human presence can considerably decrease their anxiety levels. I think we owe a greater obligation to look af5er them than any other animal. And I think you have to have an especially spectacular lack of empathy to slaughter and eat dogs. And its also the way it is done that is horrific. The dogs have their limbs chopped off while they are still alive and then blowtorched. And dogs wait in pools of blood in cages in the markets waiting their turn the next day.

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

@thrifty++ - For the record I assume you are vegetarian ?

thrifty++
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by thrifty++ »

@chenda - no I'm not vegetarian. I don't eat a lot of animal food but sometimes eat seafood and chicken.

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

@thrifty++ Neither am I, but for animal cruelty its probably the single best thing you can do, wherever your meat is from.

slowtraveler
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by slowtraveler »

fiby41 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 2:26 am
@slowtraveller is Aspire the same as Acer or is that a separate company and Acer has a product range with same name?
I had a typo, I fixed it. You're right though, Aspire makes Acer. And I don't know how I thought Oppo was Korean. I'd heard that while in Thailand but upon further research, I was very wrong there.

The list below* is helpful but doesn't describe manufacturing. There's also a very high chance that all of the Taiwanese made brands are not made in China.

Do you know if Indian brands tend to be locally made?

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... by_country

JuliusFC
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by JuliusFC »

How long until we have attacks on Asian people in Western countries?
Verbal and physical assaults have been increasing in Vancouver (Canada) for months.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6859065/susp ... vancouver/

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/young-indigenous- ... -1.4943269

https://www.straight.com/news/anti-asia ... es-for-his

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.5568475

jacob
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by jacob »

There's an entire and very long wiki page devoted exclusively to CV19 related xenophobia.

I'm not happy about this thread being on the forum.

I suspect the anti-country/nationality xenophobia is a consequence of the stress fueling some of the darker human tendencies that are getting stoked and directed by certain politicians and associated psyops/troll farms. Historically persecuting "the other" is not unusual during pandemics, but we should be better than that and stick to discussing policies rather than race, group, or nationality.

Also see forum rule #6 and 7.1. While this particular thread isn't targeting a particular individual, it is targeting a particular group and is therefore definitely in the grey zone.

thrifty++
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by thrifty++ »

@jacob - fair enough. Do you want to just delete it. I don't know how to delete a thread.

Alphaville
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by Alphaville »

before he locks it or whatever i just quickly wanna add that projecting all the evil in the world onto “china china china china” is a) poor mental health, b) a cop-out to keep us from dealing with our own misdeeds, and c) a neocon propaganda mode designed keep people at war.

check out “the power of nightmares” by adam curtis. very illuminating. starts here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dTg4qnyUGxg

chenda
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Re: COVID19 and boycotting Chinese made

Post by chenda »

Agreed.

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