$$$ for your firearms

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
ffj
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by ffj » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:58 am

@Bankai

Mass shootings bother me, and I am open to solutions. When people espouse their stances they are indicating where impasses lie, and why normal people often disagree. Rigger jack has indicated that he would have to wait a long time for someone else to come and protect him and Cheepnis has indicated he/she doesn't feel comfortable with the power and responsibility of handling a firearm, and he/she may feel comfortable waiting for trained law enforcement to show up. Both are valid viewpoints that need to be considered when making policy.

@Bigato

You are missing the point. It's not about who would win, but about the cost incurred to achieve "victory", which is the deterrent to avoid overstepping boundaries. I don't know how much that plays into our current government, but I firmly believe if an opportunity exists for misbehavior, eventually someone or groups will gladly take advantage of it. It's no different than oversight committees for various organizations. I've often said, for example, that if an opportunity exists for someone to steal from a company, then eventually somebody will. It's not even a question of if it will happen, but when. So you shut that door of opportunity. You sure as hell don't trust that every future employee will be honest.

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Bankai
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Bankai » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:11 am

There are remote areas in Europe and yet people manage just fine without guns, murder rates are lower and people are not advocating easy gun access.

Riggerjack
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:30 am

I've often said, for example, that if an opportunity exists for someone to steal from a company, then eventually somebody will. It's not even a question of if it will happen, but when. So you shut that door of opportunity. You sure as hell don't trust that every future employee will be honest.
Alternatively, one could accept that a percentage of people will take dishonest opportunities, given the chance.

The efficient scenario is to present easy opportunities, and then cull the offenders. Lower enforcement costs, more compliance, fewer offences, more freedom to act, and an improved population.

But for this to work, examples must be made...

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:06 am

Bankai wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:02 am
Anyway, has anyone ever changed their mind thanks to any of the previous gun threads on these boards?
Maybe it could be agreed upon that the media should stop glorifying the shooter by putting his name and picture everywhere. In a world of Instagram and YouTube where everyone wants to be famous, stop giving disaffected crazies a chance. 40 years later and they are still putting up the mugshot of John Lennon’s assassin. That’s exactly what they want. Subject them to damnatio memoriae instead.

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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by jacob » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:11 am

This is mostly to add an offshore perspective to what Riggerjack said. Contrast and compare style ...

Whenever Denmark is brought up in the US as an example of the ideal society or whatever, the counterargument is typically that the Danish system only works because it's an culturally/homogeneous society. That might be, but I think it's something else namely differing attitudes about the "government".

In the US, the prevailing attitude is best illustrated by the standing joke that the last thing an American facing a problem wants to hear is "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you". Whereas, in Denmark, the trust in government is so high (Denmark has the lowest perceived corruption index in the world(*)) that the most common complaint I hear about ERE is something along the lines of "how I'm not contributing to society if I'm not working and paying taxes". Such complaints imply that society de facto equals the government. (This is something I personally disagree with, so I proceed to talk about how society is also how we treat our neighbors and other things we do that does not circle around the government.)

(*) Which I frankly think is a greater achievement than being the so-called happiest nation in the world.

In general, there's just a stark difference between the two countries when it comes to mutual trust between citizens and government. Americans perceive this trust as being driven by homogeneity. I disagree. I think it's because the Danish [government] system tends to work and if it doesn't it gets fixed because people want it to work. Whereas in the US, government doesn't work that well, partially because many Americans don't want it to work. (This could be related to population density. Being sparsely populated, the US can still allow rather unrestrained freedoms w/o stepping on other people's rights. In Europe, things have be be more regulated. Same reason why there's a difference in attitude between urban and rural Americans. Statistically speaking the population density of your residence strongly determines how red/blue your voting district is.)

So to draw the lines in starker terms: In Denmark both sides (government vs private citizen) assumes the best intentions on the other side. In the US, they assume the worst. This is how I find myself talking to US government bureaucrats through a small hole in some bulletproof glass whereas Danish bureaucrats in open offices will happily lend me their personal cellphone to call the bank for a missing account number.

As such a Danish response to some government worker walking onto one's property would be something like "Hi, is there a problem?" (and how can we help each other to resolve it) rather than the American "Show me a warrant. You're trespassing!"

I understand that there are historical reasons for how both attitudes developed. It's not that Denmark is culturally homogeneous ... rather it's that the government in Denmark is considered part of the people's tribe and vice versa. Whereas in the US---see much of the Constitution---the government often belongs to "The Other" tribe---which it originally did in the form of the British Empire (hence the stuff about well regulated militias, housing troops in your house, search and seizure). The US (which won) in the 18th century parallels Rome (which lost) in the 5th century. The latter would likely dearly have appreciated something like the constitution over those couple of following centuries.

FIRE 2018
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by FIRE 2018 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:32 am

Agreed. Denmark has its pros and cons. Many pros regarding gun control however Denmark unfortunately does not welcome immigrants as the USA does and Denmark puts them in " immigrant ghettos". But that's another topic of discussion.

IlliniDave
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by IlliniDave » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:45 am

jacob, do you think size difference matters? The US is what, 200X Denmark in size and 60X Denmark in population, something like that. I've thought individual states in certain areas might be able to come up with a workable overlay of "democratic socialism" onto a free market/capitalist system where everyone is an extended neighbor of everyone else, but that scaling to a US size is problematic. Cultural (and ethnic) non-homogeneity just complicates that.

Would the Danes be as pleased with things if it were Germans or Romanians coming over to "help"? Maybe that's common given the EU? I do see some Europeans chafing a little at "Brussel's" influence.

You're right about the cultural differences being a big deal. Our birth was in defeating a government across a sea, and the model set up was supposed to be stronger local government and weaker central/federal gov't, with individual sovereignty being paramount. Had it been successful your local DMV or whatever might be much more Denmark-like, but now policies are set thousands of miles away from where many of us live, making it hard to find a basis to trust bureaucrats (the ones with influence all huddle in the 5 richest counties in the nation around DC, and do whatever it is they do).

That's not meant to be snarky, I know little of Europe beyond the history of the two 20th century world wars.

7Wannabe5
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:50 am

Was there ever a Danish version of "Catch-22?" I don't think it's just the federal government vs. freedom. I wouldn't want to be overly governed by a Condo Owner's Association either. As in, "Hooray, I get to pay $208/month for the privilege of no neighbors with tacky lawn ornaments." OTOH, I am now wondering if $$$ for your tacky lawn ornaments would work?

Cheepnis
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Cheepnis » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:46 pm

@riggerjack,. I've been trying to imagine any net positive scenario in which a gun is used as a deterrent against a government official. In the situation you're describing where armed and lawless beaurocrats bully citizens I only see negatives.

Brandish gun = assault charge.

Brandish gun and hots fired:

1) citizen killed or wounded = beaurocrat protecting themselves. Charges filed against citizen if alive.

2) beaurocrat killed = system coming down hard on citizen

I don't think I'd have much faith in the independence of the court system in a govt that's slipped far enough to have beaurocrats lawlessly bullying citizens as a modus operandi.

OTOH, now that I've written all that, I've realized Bundy situation might very well disprove everything I just said.

Riggerjack
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:48 pm

In general, there's just a stark difference between the two countries when it comes to mutual trust between citizens and government. Americans perceive this trust as being driven by homogeneity. I disagree. I think it's because the Danish [government] system tends to work and if it doesn't it gets fixed because people want it to work. Whereas in the US, government doesn't work that well, partially because many Americans don't want it to work. (This could be related to population density. Being sparsely populated, the US can still allow rather unrestrained freedoms w/o stepping on other people's rights. In Europe, things have be be more regulated. Same reason why there's a difference in attitude between urban and rural Americans. Statistically speaking the population density of your residence strongly determines how red/blue your voting district is.)
Yes, and...
In the states, there has been an attitude that government is there to protect the citizens, enforce rules, and make things "fair". This is the story we have all been told, in school, from kindergarten, on.

You can see it today, on a regular basis. Look at the latest twitterings of SJWs. Someone, right now is outraged, nearly beyond words (yet critically, never really beyond words :? ) at some minor unfairness that the rest of the world has just accepted as part of the corrupt life we lead. And the answer is to go to that eternal paternal arbiter, to change the rules so this outrageous travisty can finally be corrected. (Insert likes, smilies and thumbs up, here. :roll: )

Oddly, some people never grow out of this phase. They always believe that "we" should all just make this latest change, to cancel out this latest injustice. This is a very advanced form of childish reasoning.

It allows for the majority to make rules for the minority to follow. People who feel there is a problem with how we currently do things, so we should patch up that loophole. Stop X from doing Y. Tax A to pay for B. It's the basis of the political mind, that "we" are against "them" because we want P, but those evil people want -P.

It's odd, isn't it, that nobody wants to make rules that would cause their own identity group to change. No, it's always just one more reasonable measure to make life difficult for people who are not "we".

I suspect that the Danish are not using their government in this way, or (more precisely) have done so, so thoroughly, that the "they" are no longer in the country.

At the end of the day, the recess lady goes home, and you have to live with your neighbors. That's a scary thought to people who don't know their neighbors. Neighbors that one treats to dubstep, or who drive cars with loud exhaust, or whatever minor inconvenience bothers you or them. Neighbors with their own issues and stresses.

But I know my neighbors, and if they want a heavy machine gun, ok. If that's a problem, I will deal with it. But I also have the luxury of space. Out in the sticks, we have room to live without our choices so regularly imposing costs on our neighbors. I was living on the mainland for a bit recently. Living 5 residences per acre means always hearing people. People I didn't know, or have time/energy to get to know. I can understand why one would like an authority to just resolve offending behavior, to free up what time and energy one has left for one's own purposes.

But I don't need or want a recess lady to impose rules on my behalf. The idea that I need some enforcer of rules feels infantilizing. I am not a child, I can deal with my neighbors as adults.

And that's the objection I hear from gun nuts that try to understand gun grabbers. That gun grabbers are like kids playing on a playground, making up house rules for a game. Without any reference to why the rules are as they are, or how the game will change after the new rule goes into effect. A new rule equals a fair game, because the old game was unfair. (Seriously! You hit the ball, I hit the ball, why do you get the points?!? I'm being oppressed by the net! Tennis is just so bourgeoisie!)

Someone upthread said that more guns equals more death. This is the thinking of a child. If anything were that simple, we wouldn't still be dealing with any problems. (To be fair, I also have the thinking of a child on issues I haven't investigated.)

My belief, is that every problem we face today, is a side effect of the solution to the problem we faced previously. If we don't understand that problem, that lead to the solution, that is causing the current problem, how lucky do we have to be to come up with a solution today, makes things better tomorrow?

Luckier than we have been, clearly.

Riggerjack
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:32 pm

@riggerjack,. I've been trying to imagine any net positive scenario in which a gun is used as a deterrent against a government official. In the situation you're describing where armed and lawless beaurocrats bully citizens I only see negatives.
Me, too. I doubt you and I are as far apart on this as you seem to believe.

I don't carry in public. I have, and didn't like it. More importantly, if there is a reason to need a firearm in public, that is a situation I should have avoided. Hollywood likes to portray the hero taking action. But real life has nothing to do with Hollywood.

Context is everything. Rarely is a confrontation rich in historical context. I don't know why A is shooting at B, but I do know that the best place to be, is far from A and B, and the aftermath. One cannot take bullets back. There are far too many possibilities for me to pull a gun on anyone in public. I just don't know why anyone is doing what they are, and I leave when situations get tense.

That changes on my land. I know where everything is. I know who belongs, and who doesn't. I know what is downrange in all directions. I know where the backstops are.

And with all of that said, I would never introduce myself to an agent of the government with a gun in hand. Or anyone else for that matter.

The value of armed citizens lies in the fact that we are there. That some members of the public are less enthusiastic about strangers on their land than I. That those people have to be considered, when people facing policies are considered. This is the protection from the government I appreciate.

Just a check against unrestricted bureaucracy. If you think bureaucracy's restricted to the office, you aren't paying attention to the actions of your government.

daylen
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by daylen » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:30 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:48 pm
It allows for the majority to make rules for the minority to follow.

It's odd, isn't it, that nobody wants to make rules that would cause their own identity group to change. No, it's always just one more reasonable measure to make life difficult for people who are not "we".

But I don't need or want a recess lady to impose rules on my behalf. The idea that I need some enforcer of rules feels infantilizing. I am not a child, I can deal with my neighbors as adults.

My belief, is that every problem we face today, is a side effect of the solution to the problem we faced previously. If we don't understand that problem, that lead to the solution, that is causing the current problem, how lucky do we have to be to come up with a solution today, makes things better tomorrow?
Following this line of reasoning, the original problem was communication. It seems to me that language effectively amplifies herding effects, and that if it evolved once it will probably happen over and over again.

I wouldn't be surprised if some other species manages to develop written language in a few million years. You can bet that there will still be left-right-ism keeping it all in check (or not).

On the other hand, a nihilistic view would just lead to extinction. Life is a predicament.

Riggerjack
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:04 pm

I wouldn't way that communication is the problem, rather that it has been. Or more precisely, our tribal nature has easily been hacked. But our communication techniques have undergone huge changes recently.

Our institutions have definitely not caught up. But once those changes run their course, I have very high hopes for the future. Tempered by my Doomer INTJ tendencies, of course.

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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by jacob » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:16 pm

@iDave - The EU (United States of Europe) can be compared to the US in size, but in terms of history and balances of power between near and far, it's different. If European countries correspond to individual US states, and national governments correspond to state government, and the EU corresponds to the Federal government, then country legislatures would hold much more power (maybe 80-90% of your taxes would go to the country and 10% to the EU if that); country issues would be determined, enforced, and paid for at the country level; voter turnouts for country elections would be 70%+ but 20-30% for EU elections (I bet most Europeans can't tell you the name of the EU president or whoever politicians they sent to Brussels .. similar to how surprisingly many Americans don't know the name of the VP or their congressional representatives). Unlike the EU, Americans all speak English (Europeans too, but it's not considered or treated as a first language) and move, relocate, and visit other states frequently. Americans are Americans before they are Hoosiers or Californians. Europeans are not Europeans before they are Germans, French, ... In that sense, what Brussels do is mainly to standardize the free movement of goods AND people. It's not like the EU constables show up at your doorstep if you've been naughty. In many ways the EU is more like NAFTA on steroids.

But that was not my focus wrt the cause of the differing attitude towards the government between Danes and Americans.

Bernie Sanders has done a lot to confuse Americans about what "democratic socialism" is. As far as I know, no European country runs on Bernie's model. Democratic socialism (corbynism) is the idea that the state nationalizes industry and then people vote on what industry should do, it's communism-light run by vote rather than party. (To be fair, several US "industries" are indeed nationalized, e.g. defense, policing, fire fighting, interstate freeways, public schools, medicare, ...)

Denmark runs what's called the Nordic model which is a form of social democracy which is another word for a mixed economy with a high tax rate. A social democracy means that the state takes in a lot of industry's profits (like 50%+ compared to the 30% take in the US) and then voters democratically decide what to do with it. So industry can do what they want (they don't get nationalized) but the state does take a heavy cut of their profits and cycle it back into infrastructure, education, sick leave, etc.

Americans also tend to understand it differently when Danes talk about the "welfare state" (it's a direct translation, much to the detriment of what it actually entails ... but try translating "early retirement" into Danish if you wanna know what I've had to deal with talking about FIRE over there :-P ... it directly translates into something like "disability pension" #FML)

Specifically, in trusting the government, the Nordic welfare model is a complete package for everybody from the time of birth to the time of death... not just the needy (no stigma involved wrt benefits---they're meant for everybody). It provides generous maternity leave, daycare for everybody, free education to the tertiary level (if you qualify), practically free health care (except for luxury stuff like nose jobs), good roads, trains on time, unemployment benefits and retraining if it comes to that ... basically a life free of financial worries when it comes to "basic living". Everybody gets the same opportunity in life and it does not matter what your income is. As a result social mobility is high---indeed, higher than is the case in the US. This in return for high taxes and large scale income redistribution. Despite bitching and moaning about that most Danes consider this a really good deal. Or let me rephrase that ... like everywhere else, half complain that taxes are too high and the other half that their benefits are too low ... but given the choice between what they're getting and picking the US system, 95% (just eyeballing based who gets into parliament) would pick the Danish system.

All that is to say that the trust in the system is that it works and paying all those taxes are generally considered a good deal and that the government overall does a pretty good job spending it. People, therefore, do not fear the government. Thus no felt need to own guns to keep the government in check. That last time Danes needed guns to keep a fascist/overreaching government in check (WWII), guns were easily manufactured in machine shops or airdropped (thanks UK). The biggest challenge was not the lack of guns but the lack of an organized resistance, so it took some years to establish. Following WWII, the resulting "well-regulated militia" was written into law and the organization is now part of the military. Read the wiki link. I think the spirit of how it was founded as being in service of the people rather than the government is very much in tune with what the founding fathers had in mind in the US wrt 2A (at least that's how I interpret 2A). Similar circumstances cause similar legislation.

That's not to say that Danes are all goody two shoes or obedient peons. Tax evasion via moonlighting is a national pastime. If the HOA equivalent decides you can't cut down a tree that ruins your view, it might accidentally fall over on its own 8-) Government action might be respected, but it is also not feared. Ditto one's neighbors.

That's probably more than anyone wanted to know... lets get back to the regular programming.

ether
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by ether » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:09 pm

unemployable wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:21 pm
DC vs. Heller. The Supremes ruled that is not a necessary condition to gun ownership.
Key thing being that most states have a militia that is loyal to the governor not the president, however since the civil war most governors have given full control of their militas to the federal government and integrated them into the Department of Defense's reserve units.
Example: http://sg.sc.gov/

Most view militias as a joke and all combined 50 state militias are under 10,000 compared to the 3 million in the DoD. I think there are more police in the New York City Police than all militia members!

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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by ether » Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:20 pm

Also compared to other countries, you'll see pretty much all US gun buy back programs were half-assed compared to other countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyba ... ted_States

Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:06 pm

This was a pretty interesting read regarding illegal weapons, gangs, and violent extremism in Denmark: https://www.flemishpeaceinstitute.eu/sa ... enmark.pdf

I was surprised to find that most of the illegal guns seized were german made; I was expecting more Russian made weapons. Not surprising was that a lot of weapons are smuggled in via Balkan states.
  • The most common country of production of weapons seized in Denmark is Germany. Figure 1 shows the country of production of all the firearms seized in Denmark in the period 2013-2016. The statistics show very little variation from one year to another in the four years covered: Germany is, for example, always the most common country of production, while the United States is always the second most common, and Belgium, Italy and Spain alternate among third, fourth and fifth places
  • A 2014 study found that the main method of trafficking illicit firearms into Denmark was in heavy goods vehicles originating primarily from the western Balkans. Some weapons smuggled into Denmark are destined for the Swedish criminal market
  • The illegal gun market in Denmark is facilitated and largely driven by the demand of criminal gangs. Criminals in Denmark sell and resell firearms within and between gangs. The illegal gun market in criminal environments appears to be pragmatic rather than ideological. Individuals from an motorcycle club gang known to have right-wing and xenophobic tendencies have, for example, been known to trade with DENMARK an ethnic street gang. Thanks to police firearms forensics units, investigations have shown that the same weapons are used in multiple shootings and various crimes. On one occasion the same weapon was used in five different shootings. The police therefore infer that the size of the criminal gang market in firearms is limited in Denmark. This dynamic is different from the situation in Sweden, for example, where a weapon is rarely used in more than one shooting. Criminal gangs in Denmark are typically so-called ‘multi-criminals’ and do not specialise in firearms only. Most commonly, firearms are used as protection or for the control of, for example, drug markets. Theft, robbery and involvement in the illegal sales of gun enthusiasts are ways in which criminals gain access to firearms in Denmark, as well as through the conversion and importation of weapons. The police warn that the improved organisation and increased internationalisation of criminal groups may increase criminals’ and terrorists’ access to weapons in Denmark.
  • Police intelligence has also noted an improvement in individual gang members’ handling of firearms and that gang members tend to assume a ‘correct’ position before shooting. The police therefore conclude that criminals have become more skilful shooters in the past few years. The police have further concluded that some criminals, including members of motorcycle club gangs, have learnt how to shoot and handle firearms in Danish shooting clubs.

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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Jason » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:12 am

The United States was founded on gun violence. It's our first history lesson. Then about hundred years later, we turned that shit on each other. Our second history lesson. There have been four successful assassinations of US Presidents, three taking place in the 19th century. We use war to grow our economy. We detonate bombs on our enemies. The only thing that has changed are the type of weapons people use. The disruption of the 1960's was marked by three high level domestic assassinations with a war playing in the background. Then there was Reagan, then there was Lennon. These latest episodes, one representing the white supremacy movement, one representing the Antifa movement is essentially two dueling shitheads stocking themselves in Civil Waresque idealogy. The decline of celebrity culture i.e. who's actually high profile enough to take time out to shoot, the internet, new gun technology, it makes sense why mass shootings have become the soup du jour for 21st century US violence. Pretty soon they'll be dropping drone bombs. We fly military planes at patriotic events, we shoot guns at funerals, we love Clint Eastwood. I think the explanation is pretty fucking obvious at this point. We are a violent people.

Campitor
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by Campitor » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:04 am

Jason wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:12 am
I think it's pretty fucking obvious at this point. We are a violent people.
Which is how the world wants us to be. NATO/Europe has no problems calling on the US to flex its muscles whenever they feel it's in their best interest. We don't go to war because we're violent, we're violent because we go to war. You can't keep funnelling hundreds of thousands of civilians into the military where they are indoctrinated on the importance of weapons, the tactical use of violence, shipped out to active conflicts, and expect to breed a pacifist nation of citizens. And it's obvious that Europe can't have a pacifist US ally.

https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/66161:

DAVIDE BORSANI ASSOCIATE RESEARCH FELLOW IN SECURITY AND STRATEGIC STUDIES AT THE ITALIAN INSTITUTE FOR INTERNATIONAL POLITICAL STUDIES
Most European political leaders did not welcome U.S. President-elect Donald Trump’s victory, mainly due to his bias toward isolationism, which threatens to dramatically reverse U.S. foreign policy in Europe as it has been known since the end of World War II.

FRASER CAMERON DIRECTOR OF THE EU-ASIA CENTER
Of course the EU should be able to defend itself, but it always comes down to political will. Too many Europeans have been happy to shelter behind the U.S. security umbrella for the past fifty years.

PAUL CORNISH CHIEF STRATEGIST AT CITYFORUM IN LONDON
After decades of free riding on U.S. sponsorship of European defense and security, it is ironic that some European governments seem to have been galvanized not by the breadth and complexity of the challenges to their region’s security but by the prospect of U.S. sponsorship being Trumpled upon.

STEN RYNNING PROFESSOR AT THE CENTER FOR WAR STUDIES, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN DENMARK
A Europe without the Atlantic alliance would be in dire straits. The safest bet is that such a Europe would become an object of balance-of-power politics.

JAMIE SHEA DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL FOR EMERGING SECURITY CHALLENGES AT NATO
Europe needs the United States in the case of a major conventional attack from Russia or elsewhere. That is not only because of key capabilities that the United States has in abundance and far more than Europe—strategic lift, intelligence, battle-ready brigades, and precision strike capabilities—but also because the United States is the biggest factor in upholding deterrence or assuring that any attack would be successfully repulsed. Maintaining a U.S. commitment to NATO is crucial, doubly so when great-power rivalries are returning and Europe’s borders and way of life are contested.

FIRE 2018
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Re: $$$ for your firearms

Post by FIRE 2018 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:25 am

Overwhelming force presence is one way the USA can show and tell other nations " don't F%&# with us or else". And a crazy way to achieve a peaceful environment. $$$ for your guns was a good concept but in this me or you world, it's going to be me first.

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