Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

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tonyedgecombe
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:11 am

Campitor wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:24 pm
But nevertheless, it looks like GST has incentivized tax avoidance/tax sheltering which is causing downward trends in tax revenues, which in turn has incentivized the Australian government to increase taxes and/or implement some taxes on currently tax exempt products. Hmm...who could have predicted that? :roll:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/gr ... th-reality:
That article doesn't say that, there is a long list of reasons why tax revenues have fallen but tax avoidance/tax sheltering due to GST isn't one of them.

FIRE 2018
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by FIRE 2018 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am

Too many politicians flashing free $$ around and Medicare for all. What happened to getting off your butt and working hard for a living?

bigato
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by bigato » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:22 pm

The baby boomer work ethic was flushed down the toilet by history and automation along with the rest of their bullshit.

Campitor
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:10 pm

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:11 am
That article doesn't say that, there is a long list of reasons why tax revenues have fallen but tax avoidance/tax sheltering due to GST isn't one of them.
Note the modest drop in volume in GST consumption and the enormous drop in price for goods:

Since the GST was introduced while households have continued to buy the same amount of things subject to GST, they have become much cheaper...And that means we have shifted our spending towards things that are GST free – especially rent, health, and education.

Image


And look at the increase in GST free consumption:

Image

The consumption of GST goods has remained relatively unchanged despite the fall in prices but the consumption of GST-free products has increased. This shows that GST is motivating spending towards GST-free products. No economic system is immune to the incentives created by its policies.

Campitor
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:29 pm

FIRE 2018 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
Too many politicians flashing free $$ around and Medicare for all. What happened to getting off your butt and working hard for a living?
Exactly. No poor person has ever gotten rich by NOT working hard and failing forward.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:37 am

Campitor wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:10 pm
Note the modest drop in volume in GST consumption and the enormous drop in price for goods:

Since the GST was introduced while households have continued to buy the same amount of things subject to GST, they have become much cheaper...And that means we have shifted our spending towards things that are GST free – especially rent, health, and education.
I'm not arguing against that, the article makes a number of interesting points but it doesn't indicate GST causing tax avoidance or tax sheltering as you stated.

anesde
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by anesde » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:42 am

I think the bigger issue that Yang is trying to bring to light is how much of an impact automation will have to our current framework.

In the current framework it’s easy to cast aside these ideas by claiming they’re handouts, people don’t want to work hard, everyone wants something for nothing, etc. In a truly automated framework there simply won’t be enough jobs to go around. No more manufacturing, trucking, cashiers on the low end. No more surgeons, pilots on the high end.

Previous industrial revolutions made up for the lack of jobs by providing new ones. The general fear of this one is that there won’t be - hence UBI.

In our current framework I generally subscribe to the notion that people should work hard for both personal responsibility but also because it provides a sense of purpose. What’s the purpose going to be if you can’t get meaningful work and are cast aside as unproductive useless members of society? It can derail quickly.

UBI at least is trying to proactively solve the financial impact of that. It doesn’t do much for the social impact though. I fear it’s going to be a big problem in 10-15 years.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by FIRE 2018 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am

When I worked in leadership at Megacorp before I FIREd last year, our CEO came to visit my work location when we achieved 1 year accident free for our employees. Some of his words of wisdom was that work related injuries seriously affect the company's bottom line and he thanked us for working safely. Outsourcing work to a third party and automation does not affect the company's bottom line because if the affected employee gets injured, the company is not responsible for their short or long term medical bills.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:44 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:37 am
I'm not arguing against that, the article makes a number of interesting points but it doesn't indicate GST causing tax avoidance or tax sheltering as you stated.
Tax avoidance as defined by the United States IRS: tax avoidance—An action taken to lessen tax liability and maximize after-tax income.

Switching your spending habits to GST-free products/services obviously reduces your tax liability and maximizes after-tax income hence it can be considered tax avoidance. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal however tax evasion is not.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by jacob » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:52 am

FWIW, Yang just qualified for the third round of debates.

The list now includes Biden, Booker, Buttigieg, Harris, Klobuchar, O'Rourke, Sanders, Warren, and Yang.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by FIRE 2018 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:12 pm

The chance that Andrew Yang wears a tie to a formal event. Slim to none.

IlliniDave
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:03 am

jacob wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:52 am
FWIW, Yang just qualified for the third round of debates.

The list now includes Biden, Booker, Buttigieg, Harris, Klobuchar, O'Rourke, Sanders, Warren, and Yang.
I dunno why, but that surprises me. The one I find most interesting is Gabbard even though I'm a little lukewarm at best on some of her policy positions; and I don't know if she even has a shot to advance to the next round. Apparently I'm pretty out of touch with the constituency that drives qualification for ongoing participation. That does not surprise me.

latearlyFI
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by latearlyFI » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:28 am

Campitor it's easy to extrapolate - times it all by 10!!

GST/VAT is much better at collecting taxes - just look at what happened with Amazon in Australia, they spat the dummy (pacifier), when the Australian government insisted they also collect 10% GST, LIKE ALL THE OTHER LOCAL BUSINESSES, and Amazon got all salty & decided they wouldn't operate there for a while. Interesting eh, in the US they get away with not paying Federal taxes and demanding all sorts of Tax breaks for setting up shop somewhere, Australian insisted on fair competition and they didn't like it. It's an example of the better effectiveness of VAT to the current system.

So what if GST shifted purchase choices - good thing people are smoking less!!

Anyway the reason the VAT is proposed, is to ensure fair tax collection AND to fund the UBI, which will be undoubtedly necessary with the Automation job apocalypse. Is there any other policy you think will help us transition through that? I can't think of one. I think Andrew Yang's are ideas are absolutely brilliant. Have you read his book, "The War on Normal People"? You're obviously a thinker, so I'd genuinely be interested in your opinion after reading it.

And iro of GDP, it's not a good measurement of a successful society. GDP is going up in the US, but so is Suicides, Medical Bankruptcies, shorter life spans.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by jacob » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:10 pm

Andrew Yang wrote: Twelve thousand a year is the equivalent of having $300,000 in savings and then living off the passive income at 4 percent a year. Have you ever heard of someone who gathered $300,000 and then just stopped working? I haven't."
Perhaps this is why UBI is a hard sell on a forum to people who did or want to do exactly that? I'm almost finished with the book and naively I kept thinking that many who wanted a UBI would only have to work about a decade earning the median income (~$35k/yr) while spending at the UBI level ($12k) to create their own BI. It wouldn't be universal, but it be within the capability of most people and earning it yourself would solve the "earned it"-factor until it becomes clearer that robots are taking over. (Wait too long though, and it'll be too late.)

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:31 am

latearlyFI wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:28 am
...GST/VAT is much better at collecting taxes - just look at what happened with Amazon in Australia, they spat the dummy (pacifier), when the Australian government insisted they also collect 10% GST, LIKE ALL THE OTHER LOCAL BUSINESSES, and Amazon got all salty & decided they wouldn't operate there for a while. Interesting eh, in the US they get away with not paying Federal taxes and demanding all sorts of Tax breaks for setting up shop somewhere, Australian insisted on fair competition and they didn't like it. It's an example of the better effectiveness of VAT to the current system.

Amazon, like the rest of us, doesn't have to disclose their federal tax liabilities beyond what is required in their mandatory financial reports to their shareholders; so no one can say for sure how much Amazon has benefited from the legal congressional tax code currently in place. For a somewhat more nuanced look at the Amazon situation, you should read this: Does Amazon Really Pay No Taxes? Here’s the Complicated Answer

I agree with you that a company who doesn't need tax breaks shouldn't get any. I also believe this of UBI. Rich and the well-off shouldn't be getting UBI. I have no problem with poor people getting Basic Income as long as there are systems built into it that would teach them how to fish instead of being given fishes. We want people to grow out of poverty and not get comfortable with it.
So what if GST shifted purchase choices - good thing people are smoking less!!
You're assuming a VAT wouldn't impact "good" choices or incentivize tax avoidance. No economic system is immune to the incentives (positive or negative) created by its policies. Australia has almost the same population as Texas - managing a VAT for a country the size of the USA would only increase inefficiencies and create a bureaucratic nightmare for small companies.

Some further reading on the consequences of GST:
Anyway the reason the VAT is proposed, is to ensure fair tax collection AND to fund the UBI, which will be undoubtedly necessary with the Automation job apocalypse. Is there any other policy you think will help us transition through that? I can't think of one. I think Andrew Yang's are ideas are absolutely brilliant. Have you read his book, "The War on Normal People"? You're obviously a thinker, so I'd genuinely be interested in your opinion after reading it.
I haven't read his books. My opinions on his UBI proposal is based on his numerous interviews that I have watched as well as what he's published on his website. If I can find a free version of his book, I'll read it.

My firm belief in regards to the "automation job apocalypse" is that it's a very avoidable problem. While it can be argued that wages have remained stagnant (there is data that states otherwise), the cost of employment has not. The government (local, state, and federal) cannot keep mandating employer provided benefits without any repercussions to employment or wages. There is a threshold in regards to employment costs where the profitability of hiring a human is negative and replacing human capital with automation is a net positive.

If we keep forcing businesses (most of which are small businesses - see my link on small business above) to provide costly employee benefits without any regard to what that person is generating in net revenue, we will be forcing businesses to adopt more automation. Robots and software don't need paid benefits, vacations, or lunch breaks.
And iro of GDP, it's not a good measurement of a successful society. GDP is going up in the US, but so is Suicides, Medical Bankruptcies, shorter life spans.
Agreed. GDP is only one measure of the economic health of a nation. Rich people commit suicide all the time - apparently having lots of money doesn't prevent suicide yet people seem to think its the answer to all their problems and can't stop coveting the riches they see streaming on their digital devices. But somehow we think that UBI will automagically change people's lives for the better. I don't need UBI but if Yang becomes president, and he believes we should all get an additional 12k a year regardless of income, I will take that money and invest it in stocks, bonds, profit yielding capital improvements, etc. Most people will blow that 12k on junk that doesn't increase their net worth. UBI is more of the same - it will really benefit the rich and those in the 20%. Hooray!!! ...more capital inflows to the well-off and more capital outflow from the financially illiterate. :roll:

I want to help the poor and I think ONE of the means to do so is via financial literacy. Climbing out of poverty is much easier when you know what levers to press and which ladders to climb. If a former illiterate in prison can teach himself how to read and trade stocks (https://youtu.be/F89eycANUrQ), I think it's within everyone's possibility to be financially stable in a functioning economy if they have a sound mind and body.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Stahlmann » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:12 pm

FIRE 2018 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am
When I worked in leadership at Megacorp before I FIREd last year, our CEO came to visit my work location when we achieved 1 year accident free for our employees. Some of his words of wisdom was that work related injuries seriously affect the company's bottom line and he thanked us for working safely. Outsourcing work to a third party and automation does not affect the company's bottom line because if the affected employee gets injured, the company is not responsible for their short or long term medical bills.
is last sentence serious?
it's not like gated communities make you immune to angry, poor people rage.

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