Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

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tonyedgecombe
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:11 am

Campitor wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:24 pm
But nevertheless, it looks like GST has incentivized tax avoidance/tax sheltering which is causing downward trends in tax revenues, which in turn has incentivized the Australian government to increase taxes and/or implement some taxes on currently tax exempt products. Hmm...who could have predicted that? :roll:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/gr ... th-reality:
That article doesn't say that, there is a long list of reasons why tax revenues have fallen but tax avoidance/tax sheltering due to GST isn't one of them.

FIRE 2018
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by FIRE 2018 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am

Too many politicians flashing free $$ around and Medicare for all. What happened to getting off your butt and working hard for a living?

bigato
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by bigato » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:22 pm

The baby boomer work ethic was flushed down the toilet by history and automation along with the rest of their bullshit.

Campitor
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:10 pm

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:11 am
That article doesn't say that, there is a long list of reasons why tax revenues have fallen but tax avoidance/tax sheltering due to GST isn't one of them.
Note the modest drop in volume in GST consumption and the enormous drop in price for goods:

Since the GST was introduced while households have continued to buy the same amount of things subject to GST, they have become much cheaper...And that means we have shifted our spending towards things that are GST free – especially rent, health, and education.

Image


And look at the increase in GST free consumption:

Image

The consumption of GST goods has remained relatively unchanged despite the fall in prices but the consumption of GST-free products has increased. This shows that GST is motivating spending towards GST-free products. No economic system is immune to the incentives created by its policies.

Campitor
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:29 pm

FIRE 2018 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:37 am
Too many politicians flashing free $$ around and Medicare for all. What happened to getting off your butt and working hard for a living?
Exactly. No poor person has ever gotten rich by NOT working hard and failing forward.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:37 am

Campitor wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:10 pm
Note the modest drop in volume in GST consumption and the enormous drop in price for goods:

Since the GST was introduced while households have continued to buy the same amount of things subject to GST, they have become much cheaper...And that means we have shifted our spending towards things that are GST free – especially rent, health, and education.
I'm not arguing against that, the article makes a number of interesting points but it doesn't indicate GST causing tax avoidance or tax sheltering as you stated.

anesde
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by anesde » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:42 am

I think the bigger issue that Yang is trying to bring to light is how much of an impact automation will have to our current framework.

In the current framework it’s easy to cast aside these ideas by claiming they’re handouts, people don’t want to work hard, everyone wants something for nothing, etc. In a truly automated framework there simply won’t be enough jobs to go around. No more manufacturing, trucking, cashiers on the low end. No more surgeons, pilots on the high end.

Previous industrial revolutions made up for the lack of jobs by providing new ones. The general fear of this one is that there won’t be - hence UBI.

In our current framework I generally subscribe to the notion that people should work hard for both personal responsibility but also because it provides a sense of purpose. What’s the purpose going to be if you can’t get meaningful work and are cast aside as unproductive useless members of society? It can derail quickly.

UBI at least is trying to proactively solve the financial impact of that. It doesn’t do much for the social impact though. I fear it’s going to be a big problem in 10-15 years.

FIRE 2018
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by FIRE 2018 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:54 am

When I worked in leadership at Megacorp before I FIREd last year, our CEO came to visit my work location when we achieved 1 year accident free for our employees. Some of his words of wisdom was that work related injuries seriously affect the company's bottom line and he thanked us for working safely. Outsourcing work to a third party and automation does not affect the company's bottom line because if the affected employee gets injured, the company is not responsible for their short or long term medical bills.

Campitor
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by Campitor » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:44 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:37 am
I'm not arguing against that, the article makes a number of interesting points but it doesn't indicate GST causing tax avoidance or tax sheltering as you stated.
Tax avoidance as defined by the United States IRS: tax avoidance—An action taken to lessen tax liability and maximize after-tax income.

Switching your spending habits to GST-free products/services obviously reduces your tax liability and maximizes after-tax income hence it can be considered tax avoidance. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal however tax evasion is not.

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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by jacob » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:52 am

FWIW, Yang just qualified for the third round of debates.

The list now includes Biden, Booker, Buttigieg, Harris, Klobuchar, O'Rourke, Sanders, Warren, and Yang.

FIRE 2018
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by FIRE 2018 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:12 pm

The chance that Andrew Yang wears a tie to a formal event. Slim to none.

IlliniDave
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Re: Andrew Yang's Freedom Dividend (Universal Basic Income)

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:03 am

jacob wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:52 am
FWIW, Yang just qualified for the third round of debates.

The list now includes Biden, Booker, Buttigieg, Harris, Klobuchar, O'Rourke, Sanders, Warren, and Yang.
I dunno why, but that surprises me. The one I find most interesting is Gabbard even though I'm a little lukewarm at best on some of her policy positions; and I don't know if she even has a shot to advance to the next round. Apparently I'm pretty out of touch with the constituency that drives qualification for ongoing participation. That does not surprise me.

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