NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

Oppositions have been eliminated in the past. What makes you say that eliminating opposition is impossible?

Jason

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

My basic point is that you could not go into Ancient Israel and say "Isaac, put down the 10 Commandments and stop insisting that your brother Abraham be stoned to death for sleeping with your wife Rivkah." Or saying "Jacob (not the ERE guy but the prophet guy), did you ever think that rather than following this Moses guy across the Red Sea, to turn in into a resort town for the goyim?" Like Ancient Israel, Islamic life is a religious event and basic society conflates religious, ceremonial and civil law according to their sacred book. That is the threat that even non-radicalized Muslims pose to the West, similar to how JFK sixty years ago felt it necessary to publicly state he was more beholden to the US Constitution than Papal decrees.

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

@Jason
I agree on this, which makes our disagreement even more confusing.

Campitor
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Campitor »

I stumbled across the article written by a Poli Sci Professor: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicat ... om-science.

It provides a good explanation regarding the rise and fall of science in the Arab/Muslim world. Jason has touched upon some of these reasons in his posts here. I believe reading this article will help elevate the future discourse in this thread.

On a personal level I've had many Middle Eastern friends. Two of them I've known since my early teens and we're close friends. They are both practicing muslims. One is an electrical engineer and the other a computer engineer. Both are married to Roman Catholics. My other muslim friends are also very tolerant and educated. One particular friend, who is a very devout muslim (prays 4x a day - fasts for 30 days with no breaks during Ramadan, etc.), has a wife who is a practicing doctor; he gets upset every time a muslim blows up innocent civilians - he says it's forbidden in the Quran. Every muslim friend I have feels the same way - suicide and killing civilians is an apostasy. My muslim friends are some of the most educated and urbane people I have ever met. All of them are active muslims. Only 1 is a non-practicing muslim; he been an atheist since his teenage years growing up in the middle east. He is one of the most gentle and polite person I know.

Muslims are not so monolithic or violent and the perception that they are so, despite the various pew polls, has to be moderated with perspective. If we look at each other societies (Western/Democratic and Middle Eastern/Theocratic) dispassionately, we both kill huge amounts of peoples in our respective actions. Islamic Extremists do it via terror and Westerners do it via state sanctioned violence and military intervention. How can we throw so much invective at Islamic societies without acknowledging how many countries we have bombed, invaded, and armed? Can we really claim were the more peaceful society or culture?

There is a lot of things in Middle Eastern culture (which includes Islamic belief) that is admirable: kindness to strangers, strong belief in family and friendship, generosity, etc. Let's not paint them all out to be ravenous suicidal fanatics. I'm not trying to whitewash the ills of Islamic fundamentalism or Middle-Eastern tribalism; they need a rennaisance but it's not going to happen as long as we keep believing they are all devils. If my devout muslim friends can be scientifically driven and tolerant of other beliefs ( my muslim friends all grew up in the ME), it gives me hope that the rest are not so lost as we make them out to be.
Last edited by Campitor on Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by daylen »

Jason wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:47 pm
That is the threat that even non-radicalized Muslims pose to the West
Isn't this presuming the existence of sides?

I can see Jacob doing this one of these days..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPEnRb6aaS4

Jason

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

@Jean - Not to go off topic, but do you post while sitting on your shit pipe? You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.

I have no idea whether we are agreeing or not. The basic point is that whether or not you agree or disagree with Muslims and what they believe, they believe it and there is no ultimate political, economic, conversion unless they convert out of Islam. That being said, my guess is that those who were executed in New Zealand, like the vast majority of Muslims, did not believe in earthly, violent means to an Islamic takeover of the world, but believed it would be a spiritual takeover caused by Allah's will. Because for any self-professing Muslim, that is a non-negotiable in their believe system. It is the means that they differ on.

(@) Daylen. We all have sides. We can try to be objective, but we are never neutral.

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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by daylen »

I think that a human must both have sides and not have sides in order to exist. Leaning too much to either side is unstable. Boundaries must be set to get anywhere and boundaries must be unset to be anywhere (or maybe it is the other way :P ). Without acknowledging both sides, there is no getting anywhere and nothing is anywhere. Dualism and monism are required.
Last edited by daylen on Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

Jean wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:34 pm
Oppositions have been eliminated in the past. What makes you say that eliminating opposition is impossible?
Ok..I know the question is not directed to me but because I will feel a tad sad if this thread is locked because of yelling and screaming, I will take a stab at it:

Yes oppositions have been eliminated in the past. For example the small pox virus has been eliminated (for most practical purposes) but still the govt or some medical lab etc probably keep a little bit on hand. Now this might be because it could be used as a biological weapon (the sinister scenario) or we could maybe learn something from it that could be beneficial to mankind (the hopeful scenario).

Or consider lacto-bacillus...the first time we encountered it in the discovery of yogurt, it was an alien agent but today is a part of our digestive tract as a beneficial microbe that allows us to expand our dietary choices. Similarly there are other gut bacteria that are acceptable to the body in small numbers but when they grow too much/fast, they can cause gut-disbyosis. Other bacteria such as HPylori can infect 80% of the worlds population but only a few people show reactions where is results in stomach ulcers or other nasty stuff.

I guess what I am trying to say in my ham handed way is that there can be two sides to a coin and adopting a philosophy of X is all good or all bad (you see people do that in dietary stuff too as in carbs or fat etc) tends to a) throw out baby with bathwater and b) all nuance is lost in favor of black and white thinking. What it does to is promote sloganeering, thought stoppers and labeling - something that politicians, advertisers and fundamentalists love because they promote tribalism at the expense of a spirit of enquiry - nothing wrong with tribalism, its just the degree that matters...when it starts coloring all our opinions and world view. Sebastian Junger's tribalism while great in combat and mission critical activities is perhaps not how the civilian population wants to live in times of peace. If one always thinks like a general, there will always be something to declare war on.

Yes it is possible to eliminate the opposition but maybe before one gets there (as a last resort) one could try assimilation. When body parts fight against each other what we get is auto-immune disease.

Even as a long term strategy...if I wanted to 'defeat' my enemy I would incorporate the best of my enemy into myself so that I am more resilient and richer than I was before (I think even some tribal cultures would eat parts of their dead foe in a belief to incorporate their strengths into themselves).

Now if we discussed what parts of another culture and belief could be beneficial to our country and what elements we could discourage and not bring in, and more importantly how (the devil is always in the details)...then we would be cooking. For example people seem to be OK with bringing Indian food, dance and bollywood movies into our culture but not so much child brides, burning widows on their husband's funeral pyre and the caste system.

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

Most muslim (most people for this matter) are good people, but faithfull to their traditions. They will lie to themselves about what's in the Qoran instead of being forced to choose between there sense of good and loyalty to their tradition. It doesn't change the content of the book.
I don't know about this particular mosque, but it recruited for the Charly Hebdo attacks, and as stated previously, at least one victim had this world domination credo, so I wouldn't make this statement.
I just went to my shit pipe, but didn't sit, because sitting wouldn't be nice. You need to be able to squat.
I think last time the west was able to have ennemies, and just see them as ennemies was during the roman empire. Now we conflate ennemies with dehumanisation. This is a problem I blame christianity for, but it's an other subject.
I don't understand what annoys jacob. This bothers me and I'm afraid to annoy him again.

@freedom 2018
squat shitting is something we should take from many non western culture. Out of jokes, small poxes and lacto bacylium are not competitors with us. Other humans can be. The only alternative to destroying them (or constant fighting) is to convince them to collaborate with us, which seems very hard when a part of their identity seems to be to destroy us. Their might be an other way than showing superior force, but I don't see it. Is that what we should focus on?

daylen
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by daylen »

Suppose that X and Y disagree/oppose (could be individual humans or tribes or mechanisms). An "is" statement may describe what X and Y do. An "ought" statement may describe what X and/or Y should do. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that Jacob's forum strategy is intolerant of ought statements that presume one side should be eliminated (to fit some agenda). A statement about what X should do in absence of what Y should do may imply that X is "better" than Y and it would be "better" if Y were eliminated. In reality, it appears that any two things that seem opposed to each other likely co-evolved into existence together (positive and negative feedback mechanisms moderate/stabilize the underlying system). X or Y often cannot be eliminated individually without eliminating the whole.

Jason

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

Jean wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:22 pm
I just went to my shit pipe, but didn't sit, because sitting wouldn't be nice. You need to be able to squat.
Ok. I was just wondering if this might be the true source of your agitation and not organized religion.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:09 am
Sorry I was so oblique with my video link response. I could write at length on this topic, but my writing voice or style is a bit too rational towards humorous to do it justice. Also I was deeply sexually infatuated with a Muslim man at the time of my conversion, so the two strands of "submission" were rather inter-tangled in my experience.

Anyways, the best I can explain it is that spiritual submission is a real thing for me, but "the God" of any religion just isn't. Also, I eventually bounced hard back into posture in which towards the end of this period of my life I was frequently thinking/reacting along the lines of "I was born a free American girl!"

Human beings in a mob
What's a mob to a king?
What's a king to a god?
What's a god to a non-believer?
Who don't believe in anything?
We make it out alive
All right, all right
No church in the wild
Tears on the mausoleum floor
Blood stains the Coliseum doors
Lies on the lips of a priest
Thanksgiving disguised as a feast
Rollin' in the Rolls-Royce Corniche
Only the doctors got this, I'm hidin' from police
Cocaine seats
All white like I got the whole thing bleached
Drug dealer chic
I'm wonderin' if a thug's prayers reach
Is Pious pious 'cause God loves pious?
Socrates asks, "whose bias do y'all seek?"
All for Plato, screech
I'm out chere' ballin', I know y'all hear my sneaks
Jesus was a carpenter, Yeezy, laid beats
Hova flow the Holy Ghost, get the hell up out your seats, preach
Human beings in a mob
What's a mob to a king?
What's a king to a god?
What's a god to a non-believer?
Who don't believe in anything?
We make it out alive
All right, all right
No church in the wild
I live by you, desire
I stand by you, walk through the fire
Your love, is my scripture
Let me into your encryption, yeah yeah
Coke on her black skin made a stripe like a zebra
I call that jungle fever
You will not control the threesome
Just roll the weed up until I get me some
We formed a new religion
No sins as long as there's permission'
And deception is the only felony
So never fuck nobody without tellin' me
Sunglasses and Advil
Last night was mad real
Sun comin' up 5 a.m.
I wonder if they got cabs still
Thinkin' 'bout the girl in all-leopard
Who was rubbin' the wood like Kiki Shepard
Two tattoos, one read "no apologies"
The other said "love is cursed by monogamy"
That's somethin' that the pastor don't preach
That's somethin' that a teacher can't teach
When we die, the money we can't keep
But we prolly spend it all 'cause the pain ain't cheap, preach
Human beings in a mob
What's a mob to a king?
What's a king to a god?
What's a god to a non-believer?
Who don't believe in anything?
We make it out alive
All right, all right
No church in the wild
No church in the wild
No church in the wild
No church in the wild

No, that was good. I think I understand some. And I appreciated your posting the version of the video where I could actually listen to the lyrics..but eventually I had to google it to follow along.

Now nobody who knows me would consider me submissive (unless maybe you put a gun to my head...have had that happen too and I was not very submissive then either..but in retrospect I should have been because sometimes submissiveness in the moment increases the odds of being in the gene pool...which is funny because though I am here now...I will not be propagating my genes to the best of my knowledge).

However submissive or not, the need to belong somewhere was certainly there and I was raised Christian by very literal bible believing parents (my dad had gone in college from being a hindu brahmin to a christian and the zeal of the newly converted is often the strongest). And my mom comes from the only Indian state with a 90% Christian population (and 92% literacy rate and the probably the only Indian state whose capital was bombed by its own airforce). So there was certainly a time despite my "christian heretic" childhood phase when I tried my utmost to fit in, including confirmation in the church and all the reading of the scriptures under the tutelage of a priest that precedes it. For a while I could almost pull it off too (after all the Ne-Fe loop of being an ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) if you will can carry one far, even in the eyes of others while blowing BS up ones own backside - aka the ultimate form of self deception)). Till suddenly it just hit me that it wasn't "God made man in his image" but the other way around.

That broke the spell I think.

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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

What I am trying to get at, is how are modern ME immigrants, in all their varieties, fundamentally different from any of my Christian ancestors, also immigrants, from a place not far away from the ME?

So far, every criticism I have heard for why Islam is different, could be applied to my ancestors with the change of a few names. And when I talk about ancestors, I am only going back a few generations.

I don't see a few generations as an unbridgeable gap.

We in the PNW have plenty of turbans in our cities, and I don't see a significant difference between them and me, beyond their superior sunlight tolerance, and cool headgear.

What do you guys think when 7w5 posts about her observations of Muslim children? They seem pretty American, to me. That's a change in a few years.

Perhaps what you are objecting to is poorly assimilated communities of a foreign culture. In which case, better assimilation seems like a reasonable solution. Yet kinda the opposite of what could be inferred as your preference.

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TheWanderingScholar
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by TheWanderingScholar »

@Riggerjack:
As someone who in his personal life has been part of the first generation of a migrant community, current expat in a foreign country, and studying segregation for my thesis, I concur that assimilation on a generational basis is the main issue. On both sides; those willing and wanting to integrate, and more importantly, the host country willing to integrate new guests into society, on the long-term. And if not assimilate, to integrate and bring some new life and facets to the host society.

Many terrorists are Europe are second and third generations migrants, often looking for ways to deal with the inescapable void of feeling of not having a place.

And in many ways that is what the New World countries have over the Old World countries.

We easily seem to be more accepting of the "Other", and willing to integrate them into us.

Jason

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

Most immigrant cultures assimilate within a society in a matter of generations. Often the most devout attempt to maintain their absolutist intellectual/religious identity through geographical isolation within the new geography, such as the Hasidim or the Amish. If I had to guess why Muslims are experiencing such hostility as they immigrate to new regions, I would postulate the following:

(1) "Adjacent" racism (first coined by Gunmar Myndal in his study of the US race issues immediately after Reconstruction) where class antagonisms are most fervent between those economically closest to one another - poor whites vs. newly freed African Americans - than they are from top and to bottom. These antagonisms are often leveraged by those seeking political power which legitimizes the racism.

(2) During all ethnic migrations the differences within the group are generally lost. For instance, German Jews lost their distinction between the other European Jews when they came to America. Northern Italians lost their distinction between Southern Italians when they arrived. These distinctions were significant within the group, but were meaningless to the rest of America.

(3) As much as there was anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic sentiment during those groups' initial arrival, the difference is the fresh memories of Muslim violence, committed in the name of militanty opposed ideologies (erroneous as it may be) against the very nations that their non-radicalized brethren wish to enter is still fresh and exacerbates the hostilities and the assimilation process. I guess something similar would be the hysteria that created Japanese internment camps during WW II.

Edit: McCarthyism may also be relevant. It was one man taking advantage of diverse special interests to create an organized, institutionally backed movement against what was for the most part a non-existent entity i.e. there wasn't an American Communist Party. The difference being that it faltered when it went against the top of its own food chain - Eisenhower - and was subsequently squashed. In some of these regions, the movement opposing Muslims/other immigrant groups is an important base that the most powerful in the governing party need to survive. Eisenhower simply did not need McCarthyites to stay in power.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

Derailment Warning, riggerjack is introducing another irrelevant tangent:
I guess something similar would be the hysteria that created Japanese internment camps during WW II.
I was also taught that Japanese internment camps were just the result of hysteria and racism. But there is more to that story:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

Racism is a biological overkill response to a threat triggered when patience for a fairer one disapeared.
Last edited by Jean on Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jason

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

I never heard of Nihau but I am not surprised in the same manner that maybe there was a Muslim in the area of a 9/11 incident who celebrated or harbored a terrorist. But I think it has been revealed that the incidents were greatly exaggerated and the vast majority of US based Muslims were as appalled as most Americans in the similar manner that it was uncovered that the majority of US based Japanese were not a threat to the security of the country at that time.

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

Ok, I'm frustrated because I feel that we (including jacob) all agree on something, and that I'm being misunderstood.
I'm saying that the books that constitute the Canon of Sunni Islam(Quran, Sahir Muslim, and Sahir Bukhrari) command to kill us all. This can be checked.
If we assume that I'm right on this, can't we agree, that encouraging an ideology that revere those books as canon is detrimental? And that converting to islam isn't the best way to show love to muslims.

Nowhere I'm saying that all muslim wan't to do what is prescriped in those books. But like we sign Apple or google end user license agreement without reading them, people accept to be muslim. And then, the prealable agreement can be used to push some of them into doing violent action.

I've witnessed a debate between two muslims, where one was calling the other (who was saying what I'm saying about this) a lier, because reading those books is too difficult according to him, so I think it's a fair assumption that some muslims don't know what's in those books.

I'm feeling that criticism of Islam as been lumped with a lump judgement of all people originating from muslim countries, which I can understand if one as be lumped oneself.

Jason

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

Jean wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:20 am
Ok, I'm frustrated because I feel that we (including jacob) all agree on something, and that I'm being misunderstood.
I'm saying that the books that constitute the Canon of Sunni Islam(Quran, Sahir Muslim, and Sahir Bukhrari) command to kill us all. This can be checked.
From my understanding, this is not true and my first question is have you read the Koran and my second question is have you read the Koran in Arabic because if you haven't done the former it's hard to take your opinion seriously here and if you haven't done the latter you will forever rest outside of the debate when it comes to a discussion with the Islamic community. My other understanding is that you also need to read the Hadith to properly understand Islam.

I am not an expert on the topic, but I have read a few books on it and have listened to lectures by Muslims and non-Muslims and have never heard that this is what the Koran actually teaches. You can pick up the bible and atomize certain passages and come to the same conclusions and this is what radical sects in all religions are wont to do.

Edit: And this speaks to McCarthyism in the sense that he and others who are quickly to throw out the word "communist" never seem like the type of people who actually sat down and read Das Kapital.

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