NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:15 am

Viktor K wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am
fiby41 finds it personally satisfying
Not satisfying, just safer. I'd rather be alive than logical.

I've no problem with Muslims as a people. However Islam as an political ideology does not accept me as I am. It considers my life less valuable than a Muslim's.
Quran (9:5) - ".., then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence at the time of Muhammad was to convert to Islam: prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars. The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.
Unless you're from Spain or Portugal, you've never seen firsthand how ugly it can get. While for me, every p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶s̶h̶i̶p̶ historical place that I go to which is more than a thousand years old has one of the following histories associated with it:

1 the current monument standing is the 17th in it's place. The previous were denigrated, destroyed, plundered, looted by these people - all Muslims. Eg. Dvarka

2.1 this place was ransacked and the sculptures were used as raw materials for the mosque down the road

2.2 has been completely converted into a mosque and you're not allowed

3 list of people who laid down their lives so I could admire the sculptures and architecture in peace.
Last edited by fiby41 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:15 am

Viktor K wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am
As a critical thinker....

If I'm not mistaken in my detailing of implications of believing a post like this to be true, I do have to wonder why such posts which seemingly support violence are tolerated on this forum. Presumably due to open/no-policing nature of this forum in which I have to wonder as well why such a sub-forum needs to exist on this forum at all.
Honestly and I mean this in a non-me-attacking-you way. From what I have seen on the forum and in the society around me, way too many people purport to be 'rational' and 'open-minded' whereas just below the surface are seething emotions and inherent likes/dislikes that are then supported with rationalizations. No wonder we have two factions in this country yelling their 'rational' arguments at each other while no understanding is developed and some people like me are getting a massive headache.

The jihadist/fundamentalist wants to silence dissenting voices with their sword and the 'rational' people want to silence voices by censorship.

I mean do we even care to develop a deeper understanding of our world (including our 'enemies' and people we don't agree with) or do we just want to talk to like minded people who won't question us or push our buttons? I mean I am thankful that we can approach some of these topics here without the risk of getting punched in the face unlike if I tried this out in my neighborhood bar.

Why are we so afraid of discussion?

Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." ?

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:23 am

The difference between Islam in the Near East and Christianity in the West is that a radical fringe, through the imposition of a hermeneutic on their holy book which is subsequently enforced through violence and intimidation, has monopolized the intellectual life of Islam in a large region of the world, a region from which the religion originated. There is no multiplicity of hermeneutics within Islam in these areas that engage and regulate one another. There is no Islamic National Commission where representatives of different sects within the region can come together and say "You know, Osama, before you fly those planes into those buildings, I would like you for a moment to consider this alternative interpretation of the word "Jihad." It's the equivalent of The Westboro Baptist Church being the sole interpreter of the Bible with regard to Evangelical Christianity in America. Or maybe more like the KKK which justifies its violent activities through a biblical hermeneutic.

Edit: Most major religions appear to outsiders as being monolithic, but from the inside are highly diverse. Roman Catholicism has vibrant internal intellectual debate, at least outside the U.S. Near East Islam is the exception to this fact.
Last edited by Jason on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:34 am

@jason,
Have you considered what Christians were doing when the average Christian had a similar economic and educational level to what is seen today in the ME?

Are the problems within Islamic culture of the educated middle class, the same problems you describe? If not, what makes you think the problem is Islam? If so, I need some examples.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:43 am

People listening to gangsta rap are to gang member, what people appreciating the poetic qualities of the Quran are to muslims.
I listen to muslim propaganda music, It can be beautifull, It doesn't change the fact that it's sung and written by people who want me dead or submissive.
Muslim immigrant commit so much crime in Europe, that it's in itself a proof that they don't respect us as human. Those who do just try to put as much distance as possible between them and their fellow muslim.
I want everyone to know that they are violent, because the sooner you know, the less violence will be required for me to avoid death or submission.
And In this case, we specificaly are talking about Sunni Muslim, for which the deeds of muhamad as described in the Sunna (which is a bunch of lies, but it doesn't matter) are to be emulated, and those books have nothing but justification for psychopathic Caliphs following mohamed (after they killed is son i law) for their behavior. It's not just the Coran.
The Golden age of Al andalus is the only example of a nice muslim society to live in, and it's a lie.
I'm glad there are 1 billion indians to remember what I'm talking about. When I see how NZ nearly instantly converted to Islam out of fear for retaliation, I'm quite desperate. Or maybe it's a submission fantasy, there is nothing wrong with it, but draging an entire country with you is just evil.

And honnestly, I think Christianity is the AIDS that is making us die from the islamic Flu.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:53 am

I think the better question is why did the Islamic nations that once thrived in the middle ages i.e. the Islamic Golden Age (roughly 8th to 14th century), that were viewed as the pinnacle of civilization, that were projected to dominate the world intellectually, culturally, materially into any foreseeable future, revert to this primitive, voluntaristic, anti-intellectual, crusade against plurality within its own religion and to any school of thought outside of itself. That was the result of an internal intellectual conflict where the radicals simply won and have been dominating for centuries. I can think of no major religion in history that is as intellectually bifurcated on a geographical basis as current Islam. This is a religion that once provided the basis for the university system now taken for granted in the West, but now considers education instructing their children how to shoot guns and hate the majority of the world.

Edit: The Christian Church split into an East and West in the 12th century. However the division was based and remains on an issue arcane to anyone outside of the church - the procession within the trinity, technically called the filieoque issue. With regard to everything else, and generally, what the religion "means'" they share more in common with each other than what they disagree on. That is not the case with Eastern and Western Islam.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:01 pm

@ jean,

uh huh.

And why are you an individual who can act independently from your class/race/religious origins? For most assuredly, you seem to do just that.

Why can't a muslim man do the same?

How are you such a rugged individualist, but deny the same freedom of thought to your outgroup?

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:05 pm

Because a muslim doing the same just abandon his religion, like a communist thinking independantly abandons communism. If you don't believe in those things, you're not a muslim anymore.
Like a Christian who doesn't believe that Christ is the son of God, died for our sins and was resurected isnt' a christian.
Last edited by Jean on Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:07 pm

You cannot toss out centuries of religious and cultural acclimation. Telling a Muslim man to get on a horse, light up a Marlboro and start a MuslimDance catalogue in Afghanistan is fucking absurd. It's why every time we go there with our shit it never works out. The very idea of rugged individualism is an anathema to their basic identity.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:23 pm

@jason

And another issue that coincided with that east/west split was a gradual shift in political systems. East was merely much later in really getting that feudalism thing worked out. Then kept it around longer.

Expecting an 18th century middle class american christian to step into modern american cities and enjoy the world he sees would be as foolish as expecting a modern Muslim man to do the same. The difference seems to be economic, educational and cultural, not religious.

Economic, educational, and cultural issues must be addressed by the hosting culture. It's not possible from the other end.

Summing up those issues as religious just passes off the responsibility of the hosting culture to address these issues, since one of the valued lessons of the last few centuries of western history is religious tolerance.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:32 pm

@fiby41

Ok..I guess we need to talk too :-)

I don't know what your background/situation is except that it seems you are India based and from what I have read, deeply invested in the ancient texts and wisdom of India and probably feel very proud to be an Indian.

In addition to what I previously mentioned about my background, my father is from Kashmir (Kashmiri Brahmin hindu by origin) and we have lost all our ancestral property in Kashmir and as you well know the Hindus were driven out of Kashmir. Many were shot. I have lost an uncle (shot) and will possibly never be able to return in any meaningful way. Lost forever are our family orchards of apple trees and the ancestral home where my father's folks lived for generations and heck there is even a locality in Srinagar (capital of Kashmir) named for our family last name...that's how long his people have lived there. Given that Kashmir was the ' Switzerland of India' a title well deserved if you look at how many movies have used the scenery of Kashmir as a backdrop, the loss is not a trivial one in land, property and ultimately lives. Growing up in India, hindu Kashmiris were people without a home state, a diaspora in their own country.

I'm sure you've seen the economic and social conditions of many of the muslims in India (I went to undergrad in Bhopal ..yes of the Union Carbide gas tragedy and religious riots infamy..a third of the population there is muslim).. high degrees of poverty, lack of hygiene, very low education, very little family planning (as in way too many children that they can't support) and possibly pandered to by the Congress government for decades as a vote bank to be used during election time...similar to how some might say the Democratic party here panders to the black vote.

Now in India's history for the first time perhaps there is a government that actually got a clear majority in both the houses. So finally some executive and legislative work can actually be done instead of the constant in-fighting, forming and breaking of coalitions that were often representative of previous governments. A high GDP rate of growth for many years now has brought increased material well being to millions and millions of people. Back then I was fortunate to be amongst some of the earlier employees of Infosys Technologies (nasdaq ADR : INFY) and if I had probably stayed there would have been a USD millionarie many times over just from the stock options and splits (Instead here I am on a blog where one can learn to make cheap laundry detergent at home and reuse toilet paper...the last one is a joke obviously :-). But I never have once had the feeling that I would have wanted that life..if that is any indication of what my priorities in life are.

I would like to understand from you, why do you feel umbrage towards Islam now when India actually has a majority government that is strongly backed by most Hindus? I mean this is the best time to be a Hindu, I would think in a 85% Hindu majority country rules by a government that is also Hindu majority backed.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:34 pm

Islam is a religion that believes in theonomy. That is why Western cultures are weary/scared of letting them in. To atomize any sub-set of an Islamic society from its religious teachings is an impossibility, as all systems are subordinate to its teachings. When the teachings were "enlightened", the society thrived, as history indicates. When they shifted towards their current values, we see what happened.

Your idea that you can segregate economic, educational and cultural issues from the current religious teachings is an imposition of Western values upon them. And obviously, they will bring up many examples of how this type of thinking led to the destruction of many peoples and civilizations in the West. It's not as though our examples are without blemish or are unquestionably indicative of a "better way."

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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by jacob » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:41 pm

I think geopolitics is a much better lens for viewing this (particularly the reactions of persons) than religion. Anything said above about religion X in country Y at time T would fit in any number of places and times throughout history. The shared aspects would be an effectively autocratically ruled country with a high Gini index, leading the poor to split into two (us vs them) and war upon each other internally and externally due to issues of petty doctrine. The point of this is to serve as a distraction to the status quo.

Well, okay, this describes any country that doesn't have its shit together (I can name some situations) either through its own fault or because of external forces. There are much better ways to deal with this predicament than serving as a "useful idiot"/pawn who only subscribes to one channel or worse: think that the solution consists of eliminating the opposition (because that's impossible).

If I don't see a strong reduction of the one-sided "my side" propaganda appearing in certain posts above, I'm going to lock this thread.

We're here to solve problems in an intelligent fashion, not rally our my-side forces, whatever they may be.

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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by jacob » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:24 pm

Strike 1

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:34 pm

Oppositions have been eliminated in the past. What makes you say that eliminating opposition is impossible?

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:47 pm

My basic point is that you could not go into Ancient Israel and say "Isaac, put down the 10 Commandments and stop insisting that your brother Abraham be stoned to death for sleeping with your wife Rivkah." Or saying "Jacob (not the ERE guy but the prophet guy), did you ever think that rather than following this Moses guy across the Red Sea, to turn in into a resort town for the goyim?" Like Ancient Israel, Islamic life is a religious event and basic society conflates religious, ceremonial and civil law according to their sacred book. That is the threat that even non-radicalized Muslims pose to the West, similar to how JFK sixty years ago felt it necessary to publicly state he was more beholden to the US Constitution than Papal decrees.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:49 pm

@Jason
I agree on this, which makes our disagreement even more confusing.

Campitor
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Campitor » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:54 pm

I stumbled across the article written by a Poli Sci Professor: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicat ... om-science.

It provides a good explanation regarding the rise and fall of science in the Arab/Muslim world. Jason has touched upon some of these reasons in his posts here. I believe reading this article will help elevate the future discourse in this thread.

On a personal level I've had many Middle Eastern friends. Two of them I've known since my early teens and we're close friends. They are both practicing muslims. One is an electrical engineer and the other a computer engineer. Both are married to Roman Catholics. My other muslim friends are also very tolerant and educated. One particular friend, who is a very devout muslim (prays 4x a day - fasts for 30 days with no breaks during Ramadan, etc.), has a wife who is a practicing doctor; he gets upset every time a muslim blows up innocent civilians - he says it's forbidden in the Quran. Every muslim friend I have feels the same way - suicide and killing civilians is an apostasy. My muslim friends are some of the most educated and urbane people I have ever met. All of them are active muslims. Only 1 is a non-practicing muslim; he been an atheist since his teenage years growing up in the middle east. He is one of the most gentle and polite person I know.

Muslims are not so monolithic or violent and the perception that they are so, despite the various pew polls, has to be moderated with perspective. If we look at each other societies (Western/Democratic and Middle Eastern/Theocratic) dispassionately, we both kill huge amounts of peoples in our respective actions. Islamic Extremists do it via terror and Westerners do it via state sanctioned violence and military intervention. How can we throw so much invective at Islamic societies without acknowledging how many countries we have bombed, invaded, and armed? Can we really claim were the more peaceful society or culture?

There is a lot of things in Middle Eastern culture (which includes Islamic belief) that is admirable: kindness to strangers, strong belief in family and friendship, generosity, etc. Let's not paint them all out to be ravenous suicidal fanatics. I'm not trying to whitewash the ills of Islamic fundamentalism or Middle-Eastern tribalism; they need a rennaisance but it's not going to happen as long as we keep believing they are all devils. If my devout muslim friends can be scientifically driven and tolerant of other beliefs ( my muslim friends all grew up in the ME), it gives me hope that the rest are not so lost as we make them out to be.
Last edited by Campitor on Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by daylen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:55 pm

Jason wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:47 pm
That is the threat that even non-radicalized Muslims pose to the West
Isn't this presuming the existence of sides?

I can see Jacob doing this one of these days..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPEnRb6aaS4

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:03 pm

@Jean - Not to go off topic, but do you post while sitting on your shit pipe? You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.

I have no idea whether we are agreeing or not. The basic point is that whether or not you agree or disagree with Muslims and what they believe, they believe it and there is no ultimate political, economic, conversion unless they convert out of Islam. That being said, my guess is that those who were executed in New Zealand, like the vast majority of Muslims, did not believe in earthly, violent means to an Islamic takeover of the world, but believed it would be a spiritual takeover caused by Allah's will. Because for any self-professing Muslim, that is a non-negotiable in their believe system. It is the means that they differ on.

(@) Daylen. We all have sides. We can try to be objective, but we are never neutral.

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