NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Freedom_2018 wrote:
I am curious. How did it feel as a 'western' woman to be practicing islam light version? What made you want to try it out? Did you feel any dichotomy ?
Any insights you could share about what you learnt for your experience? What made you give it up?
Sorry I was so oblique with my video link response. I could write at length on this topic, but my writing voice or style is a bit too rational towards humorous to do it justice. Also I was deeply sexually infatuated with a Muslim man at the time of my conversion, so the two strands of "submission" were rather inter-tangled in my experience.

Anyways, the best I can explain it is that spiritual submission is a real thing for me, but "the God" of any religion just isn't. Also, I eventually bounced hard back into posture in which towards the end of this period of my life I was frequently thinking/reacting along the lines of "I was born a free American girl!"

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

If you are of your own will, praying in a Sunni mosque, it is a reasonable assumption that you believe that the way The Holy Prophet Mohamed as described in the Sunna should be emulated, and therefore that all non believer should be killed.
You have gone on in many threads about your outgroup. You seem to think that nobody is aware of the xenophobic and murderous passages of the Quran. I don't think that's the case. It certainly isn't for me.

Yet I welcome Islamic immigrants. And I feel no contradiction in this. Let me explain my reasoning, and maybe you will find something useful.

I am no religious scholar, but my understanding is that the Quaran was written as a unifying religious text for an audience of nomadic warriors. It was written in poetic verse.

That pretty much makes it a 7th century version of Rap music.

Just as I don't believe someone listening to Snoop WhateverHeCallsHimselfToday is a hardened criminal waiting for an opportunity to pop a cap in someone's azz; I don't believe someone in a turban is waiting for the opportunity to blow himself up.

But I'm sure you will object that this is a religion, far more life engulfing than mere music. This sounds like someone who has never been or seen a 15-17 year old boy.

But take the same principle, apply it. I am in a Christian nation, as I keep hearing. Christian texts can cover a bizarre variety of abominations. Incest, Rape, Murder- they are all in there. Pick your preferred goofiness, there's a biblical passage that supports it. The way this works in reality, is many peaceful Unitarian congregations, an infinite variety of protestant factions, and one Westboro baptist church. Oh, and some catholic varieties of some sort, Jason could probably sort this far better than I.

My point is they all have the same text to work from, but as a rule, they aren't inflicting the hard learned lessons of the old testament on the world around them. Just as most people listening to rap aren't shooting anyone. Just as most country music fans don't have the skills or inclination to go "down the river", in a Chris Knight sense.

So, when you try to convince me that since Islam contains murderous lyrics, and you cite a very, very tiny minority of your outgroup is being violent; my first thought is that a very, very tiny minority of EVERY group is violent. My next thought is that murderous lyrics seem to have no correlation to murderous intent.

And then I start to wonder what is wrong with you, that you need your outgroup to be seen as violent. What are your goals that would be advanced by others also perceiving that group as violent? How is it that a person who prides himself on fierce individuality, as you most certainly seem to do, can't seem to see this outgroup as a collection of individuals? Just as you are different from those of the same nationality/race/religion, why can't members of your outgroup also be independent individuals of unique beliefs and actions?

Most people belong to some identity group, and almost every identity group has a violent theme, past, and/or fringe. Yet most people are not violent. This seems to apply to Islam as well. It seems odd that you don't see Islamic people this same way.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:32 am
I believe vidéo games actually prevent violence, because they offer an output for such impulses.
On reading your statement I realized that I had not considered viewing video games in this light i.e. a source of relief or relaxation or a 'safe' output for destructive impulses. So thanks for pointing out that blind spot in my assumption. I totally failed to 'Invert' - Charlie Munger would be so disappointed in me :-)

I need to think more about this especially since I do see that the forms of unstructured rough housing and boy play I and my peers indulged in while growing up are a total no-no these days.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:36 am
You have gone on in many threads about your outgroup. You seem to think that nobody is aware of the xenophobic and murderous passages of the Quran. I don't think that's the case. It certainly isn't for me.

Yet I welcome Islamic immigrants. And I feel no contradiction in this. Let me explain my reasoning...
Most people belong to some identity group, and almost every identity group has a violent theme, past, and/or fringe. Yet most people are not violent. This seems to apply to Islam as well. It seems odd that you don't see Islamic people this same way.
<Sorry I am jumping in here and while Jean can provide his reasons...I might be wrong but I think I see something that could help bridge the gap a bit>

I feel that when people see 'Muslim immigrants' they are seeing qualitatively different immigrants and this might be the underlying assumption that then informs their approach and arguments on this topic.

For example, I will say that most Indians that people in the US see are mostly in either the knowledge worker(software/doctor/engineer) or the motel owner/ethnic grocer type. Now for the most part these folks are here legally, career/business minded and generally compatible with the American way of life. Sure their presence might irritate some people or their curry cooking smell might bother some. But on the whole they are not antithetical to the western way of life. At least this is what I have seen since 1998 when I came to the US.

However, when I go to the UK say for example, around the London area (also witnessed this in Barcelona in the Raval neighborhood), the predominant type of Immigrant is quite different. You will find many Indians/Pakistanis and Bangladeshis (I was surprised how many Bangladeshis - almost all muslim) that look, behave and give out a vibe way way different from your typical Indian immigrant in the US. I mean in certain neighborhoods I felt like I was in a small village in India ...with all the attendant attitudes and even I daresay levels of hygiene. It was although someone just picked them up from some interior village and teleported them over to a western world. Many of them are political refugees also and if I daresay the average immigrant in Europe is more 'bottom of the barrel' pick than what you get to see in the US.

I guess what I am trying to say is, I don't think the people in the US would be so well disposed towards immigrants if we on average got what Europe got as immigrants.

Viktor K
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Viktor K »

fiby41 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:29 am
One of the man who got shot had on his LinkedIn, links to, as in working for, an organization that had in its name and garnered support/donation for Ghazwa-e-Hind. It is a mythical Islamic prophecy, way past it's due date, calling for the destruction of India. I could use less of such men.
As a critical thinker, after reading through anything, I consider the implications i.e. if we take this to be true, what are the consequences, what is the next action. The implications from this post are that any of either a) all people matching this sort of LinkedIn profile should be eliminated, b) more killings like NZ are justified, C) fiby41 finds it personally satisfying when such people matching this sort of LinkedIn profile are murdered.

Fortunately as a critical thinker, I also consider in addition to other things a) why would this person think this way/want me to act upon these implications and b) are these arguments presented well and believable.

As for a) do not know fiby41 or understand them in anyway, and for b) no, they are not, and are actually very light on interpretation, elaboration and not cited.

If I'm not mistaken in my detailing of implications of believing a post like this to be true, I do have to wonder why such posts which seemingly support violence are tolerated on this forum. Presumably due to open/no-policing nature of this forum in which I have to wonder as well why such a sub-forum needs to exist on this forum at all.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

I guess what I am trying to say is, I don't think the people in the US would be so well disposed towards immigrants if we on average got what Europe got as immigrants.
I think if you replaced one ethnic title with any other, you could find similar cases in any group in the US. where immigrants of one culture dominate an area, that culture will clash much more strongly with the host culture.

IOW, I believe this is an assimilation issue, not an Islamic issue. And assimilation is a problem for a hosting culture to deal with, it can't be solved from the other side.

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 »

Viktor K wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am
fiby41 finds it personally satisfying
Not satisfying, just safer. I'd rather be alive than logical.

I've no problem with Muslims as a people. However Islam as an political ideology does not accept me as I am. It considers my life less valuable than a Muslim's.
Quran (9:5) - ".., then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence at the time of Muhammad was to convert to Islam: prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars. The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.
Unless you're from Spain or Portugal, you've never seen firsthand how ugly it can get. While for me, every p̶l̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶s̶h̶i̶p̶ historical place that I go to which is more than a thousand years old has one of the following histories associated with it:

1 the current monument standing is the 17th in it's place. The previous were denigrated, destroyed, plundered, looted by these people - all Muslims. Eg. Dvarka

2.1 this place was ransacked and the sculptures were used as raw materials for the mosque down the road

2.2 has been completely converted into a mosque and you're not allowed

3 list of people who laid down their lives so I could admire the sculptures and architecture in peace.
Last edited by fiby41 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

Viktor K wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am
As a critical thinker....

If I'm not mistaken in my detailing of implications of believing a post like this to be true, I do have to wonder why such posts which seemingly support violence are tolerated on this forum. Presumably due to open/no-policing nature of this forum in which I have to wonder as well why such a sub-forum needs to exist on this forum at all.
Honestly and I mean this in a non-me-attacking-you way. From what I have seen on the forum and in the society around me, way too many people purport to be 'rational' and 'open-minded' whereas just below the surface are seething emotions and inherent likes/dislikes that are then supported with rationalizations. No wonder we have two factions in this country yelling their 'rational' arguments at each other while no understanding is developed and some people like me are getting a massive headache.

The jihadist/fundamentalist wants to silence dissenting voices with their sword and the 'rational' people want to silence voices by censorship.

I mean do we even care to develop a deeper understanding of our world (including our 'enemies' and people we don't agree with) or do we just want to talk to like minded people who won't question us or push our buttons? I mean I am thankful that we can approach some of these topics here without the risk of getting punched in the face unlike if I tried this out in my neighborhood bar.

Why are we so afraid of discussion?

Whatever happened to "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." ?

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

The difference between Islam in the Near East and Christianity in the West is that a radical fringe, through the imposition of a hermeneutic on their holy book which is subsequently enforced through violence and intimidation, has monopolized the intellectual life of Islam in a large region of the world, a region from which the religion originated. There is no multiplicity of hermeneutics within Islam in these areas that engage and regulate one another. There is no Islamic National Commission where representatives of different sects within the region can come together and say "You know, Osama, before you fly those planes into those buildings, I would like you for a moment to consider this alternative interpretation of the word "Jihad." It's the equivalent of The Westboro Baptist Church being the sole interpreter of the Bible with regard to Evangelical Christianity in America. Or maybe more like the KKK which justifies its violent activities through a biblical hermeneutic.

Edit: Most major religions appear to outsiders as being monolithic, but from the inside are highly diverse. Roman Catholicism has vibrant internal intellectual debate, at least outside the U.S. Near East Islam is the exception to this fact.
Last edited by Jason on Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

@jason,
Have you considered what Christians were doing when the average Christian had a similar economic and educational level to what is seen today in the ME?

Are the problems within Islamic culture of the educated middle class, the same problems you describe? If not, what makes you think the problem is Islam? If so, I need some examples.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

People listening to gangsta rap are to gang member, what people appreciating the poetic qualities of the Quran are to muslims.
I listen to muslim propaganda music, It can be beautifull, It doesn't change the fact that it's sung and written by people who want me dead or submissive.
Muslim immigrant commit so much crime in Europe, that it's in itself a proof that they don't respect us as human. Those who do just try to put as much distance as possible between them and their fellow muslim.
I want everyone to know that they are violent, because the sooner you know, the less violence will be required for me to avoid death or submission.
And In this case, we specificaly are talking about Sunni Muslim, for which the deeds of muhamad as described in the Sunna (which is a bunch of lies, but it doesn't matter) are to be emulated, and those books have nothing but justification for psychopathic Caliphs following mohamed (after they killed is son i law) for their behavior. It's not just the Coran.
The Golden age of Al andalus is the only example of a nice muslim society to live in, and it's a lie.
I'm glad there are 1 billion indians to remember what I'm talking about. When I see how NZ nearly instantly converted to Islam out of fear for retaliation, I'm quite desperate. Or maybe it's a submission fantasy, there is nothing wrong with it, but draging an entire country with you is just evil.

And honnestly, I think Christianity is the AIDS that is making us die from the islamic Flu.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

I think the better question is why did the Islamic nations that once thrived in the middle ages i.e. the Islamic Golden Age (roughly 8th to 14th century), that were viewed as the pinnacle of civilization, that were projected to dominate the world intellectually, culturally, materially into any foreseeable future, revert to this primitive, voluntaristic, anti-intellectual, crusade against plurality within its own religion and to any school of thought outside of itself. That was the result of an internal intellectual conflict where the radicals simply won and have been dominating for centuries. I can think of no major religion in history that is as intellectually bifurcated on a geographical basis as current Islam. This is a religion that once provided the basis for the university system now taken for granted in the West, but now considers education instructing their children how to shoot guns and hate the majority of the world.

Edit: The Christian Church split into an East and West in the 12th century. However the division was based and remains on an issue arcane to anyone outside of the church - the procession within the trinity, technically called the filieoque issue. With regard to everything else, and generally, what the religion "means'" they share more in common with each other than what they disagree on. That is not the case with Eastern and Western Islam.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

@ jean,

uh huh.

And why are you an individual who can act independently from your class/race/religious origins? For most assuredly, you seem to do just that.

Why can't a muslim man do the same?

How are you such a rugged individualist, but deny the same freedom of thought to your outgroup?

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

Because a muslim doing the same just abandon his religion, like a communist thinking independantly abandons communism. If you don't believe in those things, you're not a muslim anymore.
Like a Christian who doesn't believe that Christ is the son of God, died for our sins and was resurected isnt' a christian.
Last edited by Jean on Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

You cannot toss out centuries of religious and cultural acclimation. Telling a Muslim man to get on a horse, light up a Marlboro and start a MuslimDance catalogue in Afghanistan is fucking absurd. It's why every time we go there with our shit it never works out. The very idea of rugged individualism is an anathema to their basic identity.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack »

@jason

And another issue that coincided with that east/west split was a gradual shift in political systems. East was merely much later in really getting that feudalism thing worked out. Then kept it around longer.

Expecting an 18th century middle class american christian to step into modern american cities and enjoy the world he sees would be as foolish as expecting a modern Muslim man to do the same. The difference seems to be economic, educational and cultural, not religious.

Economic, educational, and cultural issues must be addressed by the hosting culture. It's not possible from the other end.

Summing up those issues as religious just passes off the responsibility of the hosting culture to address these issues, since one of the valued lessons of the last few centuries of western history is religious tolerance.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

@fiby41

Ok..I guess we need to talk too :-)

I don't know what your background/situation is except that it seems you are India based and from what I have read, deeply invested in the ancient texts and wisdom of India and probably feel very proud to be an Indian.

In addition to what I previously mentioned about my background, my father is from Kashmir (Kashmiri Brahmin hindu by origin) and we have lost all our ancestral property in Kashmir and as you well know the Hindus were driven out of Kashmir. Many were shot. I have lost an uncle (shot) and will possibly never be able to return in any meaningful way. Lost forever are our family orchards of apple trees and the ancestral home where my father's folks lived for generations and heck there is even a locality in Srinagar (capital of Kashmir) named for our family last name...that's how long his people have lived there. Given that Kashmir was the ' Switzerland of India' a title well deserved if you look at how many movies have used the scenery of Kashmir as a backdrop, the loss is not a trivial one in land, property and ultimately lives. Growing up in India, hindu Kashmiris were people without a home state, a diaspora in their own country.

I'm sure you've seen the economic and social conditions of many of the muslims in India (I went to undergrad in Bhopal ..yes of the Union Carbide gas tragedy and religious riots infamy..a third of the population there is muslim).. high degrees of poverty, lack of hygiene, very low education, very little family planning (as in way too many children that they can't support) and possibly pandered to by the Congress government for decades as a vote bank to be used during election time...similar to how some might say the Democratic party here panders to the black vote.

Now in India's history for the first time perhaps there is a government that actually got a clear majority in both the houses. So finally some executive and legislative work can actually be done instead of the constant in-fighting, forming and breaking of coalitions that were often representative of previous governments. A high GDP rate of growth for many years now has brought increased material well being to millions and millions of people. Back then I was fortunate to be amongst some of the earlier employees of Infosys Technologies (nasdaq ADR : INFY) and if I had probably stayed there would have been a USD millionarie many times over just from the stock options and splits (Instead here I am on a blog where one can learn to make cheap laundry detergent at home and reuse toilet paper...the last one is a joke obviously :-). But I never have once had the feeling that I would have wanted that life..if that is any indication of what my priorities in life are.

I would like to understand from you, why do you feel umbrage towards Islam now when India actually has a majority government that is strongly backed by most Hindus? I mean this is the best time to be a Hindu, I would think in a 85% Hindu majority country rules by a government that is also Hindu majority backed.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

Islam is a religion that believes in theonomy. That is why Western cultures are weary/scared of letting them in. To atomize any sub-set of an Islamic society from its religious teachings is an impossibility, as all systems are subordinate to its teachings. When the teachings were "enlightened", the society thrived, as history indicates. When they shifted towards their current values, we see what happened.

Your idea that you can segregate economic, educational and cultural issues from the current religious teachings is an imposition of Western values upon them. And obviously, they will bring up many examples of how this type of thinking led to the destruction of many peoples and civilizations in the West. It's not as though our examples are without blemish or are unquestionably indicative of a "better way."

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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by jacob »

I think geopolitics is a much better lens for viewing this (particularly the reactions of persons) than religion. Anything said above about religion X in country Y at time T would fit in any number of places and times throughout history. The shared aspects would be an effectively autocratically ruled country with a high Gini index, leading the poor to split into two (us vs them) and war upon each other internally and externally due to issues of petty doctrine. The point of this is to serve as a distraction to the status quo.

Well, okay, this describes any country that doesn't have its shit together (I can name some situations) either through its own fault or because of external forces. There are much better ways to deal with this predicament than serving as a "useful idiot"/pawn who only subscribes to one channel or worse: think that the solution consists of eliminating the opposition (because that's impossible).

If I don't see a strong reduction of the one-sided "my side" propaganda appearing in certain posts above, I'm going to lock this thread.

We're here to solve problems in an intelligent fashion, not rally our my-side forces, whatever they may be.

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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by jacob »

Strike 1

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