NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:35 am

up to 10 years of jail for owning a copy of the massacre video.
I wouldn't be surprized if what I wrote here was retroactively made a criminal offence which would have me face jail. This is crazy. 14 years for sharing this video. Massacre videos by muslim are widely available since years. I haven't watch the video, but putting people in jail for sharing information is a rupture of contract from the gouvernment side.

IlliniDave
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:05 am

fiby41 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:57 am
Fact check: USA is 1 of 6 countries that make up for half of the world's gun related deaths.
Beyond the shallow pass (reading further in the same PBS report): US is 30th worldwide in total firearm-related homicides.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the ... u-s-stands

The US is 3rd worldwide in population. So the total homicide-by-firearm rank (30th) is somewhat disproportionate to the size of the nation (3rd). The US is 90th for overall homicide rate using Wikipedia as a source, 1 spot above Greenland.

It is true that suicidal people are more empowered in the US than in some other places. It's also interesting to look at where a cluster of some of the highest homicide rates are in geographic relation to the US.

None of the above is good per se, but those sorts of one-liner statistics are misleading.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 am

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:05 am
Beyond the shallow pass (reading further in the same PBS report): US is 30th worldwide in total firearm-related homicides.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the ... u-s-stands
It's interesting that there isn't a developed nation above the US in that list.

IlliniDave
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:57 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 am
It's interesting that there isn't a developed nation above the US in that list.
"Interesting" isn't the term I'd pick. Perhaps we're less of a "developed" nation than people like to project.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:57 am

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 am
It's interesting that there isn't a developed nation above the US in that list.
@Tony - Could you elaborate on what you are trying to imply? I want to understand your rationale and implications. Please don't make the rest of us guess and do the work for you.

Augustus
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:30 am

fiby41 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:57 am
Fact check: USA is 1 of 6 countries that make up for half of the world's gun related deaths.
Fact check 2: if you remove black on black homicide we drop to European levels.

I like black people, but man have they got to change their culture. You can look up the stats in the FBI homicide statistics. IIRC 13% of the population accounts for nearly 50% of gun related homicide. I might be off on the percentages, but that's what I remember last time I looked.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:39 am

Would yet another Wall Street bailout in the near future be more or less likely if the people were unarmed?

Is there a statistic for the amount of times politicians have shit their pants because the rabble is armed?

If not, can anyone produce a spreadsheet indicating guns owned by citizens-to-elites shit their pants ratio?

ZAFCorrection
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by ZAFCorrection » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:02 am

The question people should be asking before throwing out pithy statistics this way or that is how many deaths are acceptable given the other outcomes of a policy. The number is clearly greater than zero a lot of the time given that any policy spread out over enough people and over enough time is going to result in someone dying.

For instance, if it is literally zero deaths for having firearms it should then be expected that there will be justification for why any of the proposed benefits of firearm possession in reality have zero value.

Augustus
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:34 pm

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:02 am
Zero homicides is a great goal, life is both precious and fragile. Probably not possible to achieve unless you start modifying people with either some kind of implant or mess with their genetics. OTOH we didn't become apex predator by being nice, so... we probably need some nastiness to stay strong? I don't know, that's a whole other line of thought.

I would like to point out though, that if you correct for the black on black gun homicide rate (nearly 50% of all US gun homicides are in this category) and the suicide rate, gun violence in the USA is on par with european countries. I am not saying there isn't a problem, there definitely is a problem, but that the problem is geographically dependent. If you live in one type area you're as safe as you would be in europe.

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:13 pm

Freedom_2018 wrote:I am curious. How did it feel as a 'western' woman to be practicing islam light version? What made you want to try it out? Did you feel any dichotomy ?
Any insights you could share about what you learnt for your experience? What made you give it up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smvKHCn9P9o

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:44 pm

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
My dad was a Colonel in the Indian Army and fought in 3 wars (2 pakistan, 1 china) and I had never seen a gun in our home. But at the same time I thought it was pretty cool too that there was that level of freedom in this country. I tell you if you do that in India, they will all be shooting each other in a matter of minutes...have to hand it to the people here that we aren't all dead given that there are 300 million plus of them out there.
I read this and was was reminded of the Colonel from Andre Dubus III’s “The House of Sand And Fog.” Forgive me if you are offended by the comparison to a fictional Muslim, but I read your posts in this thread and the “Atmosphere in the Forum” thread, and found myself nodding in agreement with almost everything. It’s always encouraging to hear about people who already have an open way of thinking that come to America and enjoy an open way of living. You seem to have that fictional Colonel’s fine attributes and hopefully few of his foibles. My grandfather was a Marine and so perhaps this is in part why I can empathize.

Cheers :)

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:29 pm

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
I tell you if you do that in India, they will all be shooting each other in a matter of minutes
Gun Control and Indian Arms Act of 1878 was enacted after the First War of Independence. It has since been replaced after independence so I don't know what you are trying to get at.

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:29 am

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:48 pm
"how did this impact you"
One of the man who got shot had on his LinkedIn, links to, as in working for, an organization that had in its name and garnered support/donation for Ghazwa-e-Hind. It is a mythical Islamic prophecy, way past it's due date, calling for the destruction of India. I could use less of such men.
Last edited by fiby41 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:29 am

This profile appeared in Wapo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... 88c4939d6b

The itinerant-world-traveling, disaffected, isolated, seeking-an-ideology- lifestyle reminded me of Lee Harvey Oswald. Which makes me think was LHO actually a sociopath who was limited to the mail order weaponry of his time and not just some susceptible dupe who got pawned in a bigger chess match. In retrospect, it almost seems quaint, blowing one guy's head off with a single shot rifle. But if had access to what this guy had, would he have just said fuck it and sprayed the entire grassy knoll.

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:09 am

Freedom_2018 wrote:
I am curious. How did it feel as a 'western' woman to be practicing islam light version? What made you want to try it out? Did you feel any dichotomy ?
Any insights you could share about what you learnt for your experience? What made you give it up?
Sorry I was so oblique with my video link response. I could write at length on this topic, but my writing voice or style is a bit too rational towards humorous to do it justice. Also I was deeply sexually infatuated with a Muslim man at the time of my conversion, so the two strands of "submission" were rather inter-tangled in my experience.

Anyways, the best I can explain it is that spiritual submission is a real thing for me, but "the God" of any religion just isn't. Also, I eventually bounced hard back into posture in which towards the end of this period of my life I was frequently thinking/reacting along the lines of "I was born a free American girl!"

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:36 am

If you are of your own will, praying in a Sunni mosque, it is a reasonable assumption that you believe that the way The Holy Prophet Mohamed as described in the Sunna should be emulated, and therefore that all non believer should be killed.
You have gone on in many threads about your outgroup. You seem to think that nobody is aware of the xenophobic and murderous passages of the Quran. I don't think that's the case. It certainly isn't for me.

Yet I welcome Islamic immigrants. And I feel no contradiction in this. Let me explain my reasoning, and maybe you will find something useful.

I am no religious scholar, but my understanding is that the Quaran was written as a unifying religious text for an audience of nomadic warriors. It was written in poetic verse.

That pretty much makes it a 7th century version of Rap music.

Just as I don't believe someone listening to Snoop WhateverHeCallsHimselfToday is a hardened criminal waiting for an opportunity to pop a cap in someone's azz; I don't believe someone in a turban is waiting for the opportunity to blow himself up.

But I'm sure you will object that this is a religion, far more life engulfing than mere music. This sounds like someone who has never been or seen a 15-17 year old boy.

But take the same principle, apply it. I am in a Christian nation, as I keep hearing. Christian texts can cover a bizarre variety of abominations. Incest, Rape, Murder- they are all in there. Pick your preferred goofiness, there's a biblical passage that supports it. The way this works in reality, is many peaceful Unitarian congregations, an infinite variety of protestant factions, and one Westboro baptist church. Oh, and some catholic varieties of some sort, Jason could probably sort this far better than I.

My point is they all have the same text to work from, but as a rule, they aren't inflicting the hard learned lessons of the old testament on the world around them. Just as most people listening to rap aren't shooting anyone. Just as most country music fans don't have the skills or inclination to go "down the river", in a Chris Knight sense.

So, when you try to convince me that since Islam contains murderous lyrics, and you cite a very, very tiny minority of your outgroup is being violent; my first thought is that a very, very tiny minority of EVERY group is violent. My next thought is that murderous lyrics seem to have no correlation to murderous intent.

And then I start to wonder what is wrong with you, that you need your outgroup to be seen as violent. What are your goals that would be advanced by others also perceiving that group as violent? How is it that a person who prides himself on fierce individuality, as you most certainly seem to do, can't seem to see this outgroup as a collection of individuals? Just as you are different from those of the same nationality/race/religion, why can't members of your outgroup also be independent individuals of unique beliefs and actions?

Most people belong to some identity group, and almost every identity group has a violent theme, past, and/or fringe. Yet most people are not violent. This seems to apply to Islam as well. It seems odd that you don't see Islamic people this same way.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:49 am

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:32 am
I believe vidéo games actually prevent violence, because they offer an output for such impulses.
On reading your statement I realized that I had not considered viewing video games in this light i.e. a source of relief or relaxation or a 'safe' output for destructive impulses. So thanks for pointing out that blind spot in my assumption. I totally failed to 'Invert' - Charlie Munger would be so disappointed in me :-)

I need to think more about this especially since I do see that the forms of unstructured rough housing and boy play I and my peers indulged in while growing up are a total no-no these days.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:22 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:36 am
You have gone on in many threads about your outgroup. You seem to think that nobody is aware of the xenophobic and murderous passages of the Quran. I don't think that's the case. It certainly isn't for me.

Yet I welcome Islamic immigrants. And I feel no contradiction in this. Let me explain my reasoning...
Most people belong to some identity group, and almost every identity group has a violent theme, past, and/or fringe. Yet most people are not violent. This seems to apply to Islam as well. It seems odd that you don't see Islamic people this same way.
<Sorry I am jumping in here and while Jean can provide his reasons...I might be wrong but I think I see something that could help bridge the gap a bit>

I feel that when people see 'Muslim immigrants' they are seeing qualitatively different immigrants and this might be the underlying assumption that then informs their approach and arguments on this topic.

For example, I will say that most Indians that people in the US see are mostly in either the knowledge worker(software/doctor/engineer) or the motel owner/ethnic grocer type. Now for the most part these folks are here legally, career/business minded and generally compatible with the American way of life. Sure their presence might irritate some people or their curry cooking smell might bother some. But on the whole they are not antithetical to the western way of life. At least this is what I have seen since 1998 when I came to the US.

However, when I go to the UK say for example, around the London area (also witnessed this in Barcelona in the Raval neighborhood), the predominant type of Immigrant is quite different. You will find many Indians/Pakistanis and Bangladeshis (I was surprised how many Bangladeshis - almost all muslim) that look, behave and give out a vibe way way different from your typical Indian immigrant in the US. I mean in certain neighborhoods I felt like I was in a small village in India ...with all the attendant attitudes and even I daresay levels of hygiene. It was although someone just picked them up from some interior village and teleported them over to a western world. Many of them are political refugees also and if I daresay the average immigrant in Europe is more 'bottom of the barrel' pick than what you get to see in the US.

I guess what I am trying to say is, I don't think the people in the US would be so well disposed towards immigrants if we on average got what Europe got as immigrants.

Viktor K
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Viktor K » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:33 am

fiby41 wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:29 am
One of the man who got shot had on his LinkedIn, links to, as in working for, an organization that had in its name and garnered support/donation for Ghazwa-e-Hind. It is a mythical Islamic prophecy, way past it's due date, calling for the destruction of India. I could use less of such men.
As a critical thinker, after reading through anything, I consider the implications i.e. if we take this to be true, what are the consequences, what is the next action. The implications from this post are that any of either a) all people matching this sort of LinkedIn profile should be eliminated, b) more killings like NZ are justified, C) fiby41 finds it personally satisfying when such people matching this sort of LinkedIn profile are murdered.

Fortunately as a critical thinker, I also consider in addition to other things a) why would this person think this way/want me to act upon these implications and b) are these arguments presented well and believable.

As for a) do not know fiby41 or understand them in anyway, and for b) no, they are not, and are actually very light on interpretation, elaboration and not cited.

If I'm not mistaken in my detailing of implications of believing a post like this to be true, I do have to wonder why such posts which seemingly support violence are tolerated on this forum. Presumably due to open/no-policing nature of this forum in which I have to wonder as well why such a sub-forum needs to exist on this forum at all.

Riggerjack
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:58 am

I guess what I am trying to say is, I don't think the people in the US would be so well disposed towards immigrants if we on average got what Europe got as immigrants.
I think if you replaced one ethnic title with any other, you could find similar cases in any group in the US. where immigrants of one culture dominate an area, that culture will clash much more strongly with the host culture.

IOW, I believe this is an assimilation issue, not an Islamic issue. And assimilation is a problem for a hosting culture to deal with, it can't be solved from the other side.

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