NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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Augustus
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:14 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:04 pm
Since when is asking a question not okay? You said we should kill all people like Brenton Tarrant. What do you mean by that?
Okay, answer me a question. Let's say that you're some average person who hasn't intentionally caused anyone any harm and you live with your family and they have also not tried to hurt anyone. One day, Brenton Tarrant breaks into your house and holds everyone you care about hostage with a gun, and is about to kill you all. I am standing behind Brenton Tarrant and I have a gun pointed at his head. What do you want me to do?

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:23 pm

Hooray, we agree on something. But this is so far from the situation that we cannot draw any conclusion from it. This exact mosque was linked to the terror attacks in France. Those people follow an ideology that command the murdering of every one not adheering to it.
As long as there is no collective response about this issue. Individual will try to act on it. I think that those actions might not help the issue, but this is another question.

Augustus
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:29 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:23 pm
Those people follow an ideology that command the murdering of every one not adheering to it.
No, most of those people were innocent. Do you think Brenton Tarrant was standing there asking people if they were card carrying jihadists before murdering them?

Tyler9000
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:34 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:54 pm
But then, why shouldn't we kill ... ?
Because it makes you the wolf. Or maybe you might consider it lawful or neutral evil depending on your perspective. But it's still evil nonetheless.

For the record, I find the discussion about the motivations of the NZ shooter and the nature of good/evil to be interesting but the debate on the justification for murder is not my thing. For the purposes of the original topic, I'm squarely on the side of not shooting up places of worship.
Last edited by Tyler9000 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 14 times in total.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:53 pm

If you are of your own will, praying in a Sunni mosque, it is a reasonable assumption that you believe that the way The Holy Prophet Mohamed as described in the Sunna should be emulated, and therefore that all non believer should be killed. I'm curious about what would have happenened if instead, he went to the mosque with a copy of the sahir Muslim and the sahir Bukhari, and asked the believer if they could say that the behavior of mohamed described in those books should be condemned.

Let's, just for this question, assume that all muslim wan't to kill everyone else. Should they be killed then?
He tought like you, but with a different assumption. Disproving the assumption is therefore the correct way to avoid similar event in the future.

Augustus
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:21 pm

That question is the essentially the same as saying that if all farts smell like cinnamon buns do you like to smell farts. The answer is it's irrelevant..

Like I said above, most people just want to be left alone and live their lives, and more importantly be happy. Muslims are people, ergo most muslims just want to be left alone to live their lives and be happy. I have no problem with that.

Some people are a danger to others and need to be stopped. Shocker.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:45 pm

You excpect me to answer absurd question, and then you refuse to answer mine, that's unfair. I assume you're a moral person, so you choosing to be unfair is a strong sign to me that you are affraid of stating things that could get you in trouble. If you're afraid to get in trouble for writing things, it means that maybe a violent answer isn't that irrational.
Not talking about a problem isn't going to solve it. You're ignoring my arguments, despite me mentionning things that are easy to check ( the contents of two books, contrarily to the real opinion of muslims).
I'm deeply despaired about most people cowardice. I'm not saying we should start killing people. But we shouldn't bend over, and call islam for what it is, and confront muslim with the ideology they believe in.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:21 pm

Ok. Ok..wow. Lots of heat under the collar, movie dialogues thrown around and what not :-)

Some things are becoming clearer to me watching the interactions on this thread:

1) There seems to be very little tolerance for ideas or discussions that fall outside the 'appropriate' ones. Even in it is only discussion, there seems to be little ability to hear the other person and try for a bit to stand in their shoes and see where they might be coming from with an open mind. Judgement and defense of one's viewpoint seems to be paramount. This on a forum where participants are hopefully of a better IQ and education (in the sense of reading from a variety of disparate sources and then reflecting on it)

If we can't even have a nuanced discussion about what happened half a world away with fellow forumites, how the heck do we expect to have any kind of understanding on things that are closer home and more directly relevant to our lives like politics (left vs right) and pray what hope for the common man on the street to discuss these things in a productive manner with his fellow citizens.

You know when Franco the dictator ruled Spain from 1939 to 1975 (his death)..he had a nice tactic of how to control his people by providing an illusion of freedom without really allowing things that citizens of a free nation could do. His tactic was to allow very vigorous debate on subjects but maintain a narrow overton window. So Spaniards were free to yell and scream and write articles and argue till they turned blue in the face on whether Barcelona or Madrid had the better soccer team, or which city in Spain had the most authentic paella or bullfighting, but you couldn't much critique the church or the rule of government. More than a whole generation of people grew up under this was of government and internalized a narrow overton window. Today over 30% of the population still supports Franco while the rest are torn up about whether to exhume his body and relocate it to a more non-descript place from its current grand surroundings. Talking to older people in Spain, I found many yearn for the stability and law and order or the Franco days and are uncomfortable with what they perceived as increased chaos as they now have democracy. Ask them questions about soccer and such and they will regale you all day...ask about their thoughts on more complex issues such as self governance and dissent and you get a blank, as though their minds were never wired to consider such things.

Let us hope we don't narrow our own overton windows in discussions.

<More thoughts as I catch up and reflect some more>

prognastat
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by prognastat » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:12 pm

I'm not sure how the analogy holds though as they are vigorously debating an issue that generally falls well outside the overton window of most places and are being allowed to do so. Also no one involved in the discussion holds any power to silence the discussion.

I don't know about the people involved in this particular discussion, but during a discussion surrounding a disagreement on a topic I tend to discuss very vehemently trying my best to take apart the others argument while presenting the strongest argument for my opinion and hope they do the same to me.If despite my best efforts they manage to dismantle my argument and provide a stronger one despite me fighting hard for the previous argument I'm more likely to switch to their position or at least seriously re-evaluate mine to see if what I believed to be true actually holds up. This can make for some harsh discussions, but I feel is the best way to improve my understanding.

Also I suspect though the discussion was sparked by an event half way across the world the discussion is heated as the event falls into a topic that for some might land closer to home in that it involved Muslim integration into western democracies and the backlash to it. Still quite distant for most Americans, but not so much for Europeans.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:37 pm

If you are a Muslim in let's say Afghanistan, and someone asks you "Why does this book fall to the ground when I drop it" and you respond "gravity" things are not going to be enjoyable for you. (Correct answer is because Allah willed it to fall which means you live in a voluntaristic world). Every single Muslim I know in the US left for that type of reason and I know a good many. My biggest complaint with them is that their coffee is like drinking used fucking motor oil. Do most believe in Islamic domination, I believe so, but the definition of Jihad to them is "Struggle" not "Let's blow shit up." They just think it's inevitable through spiritual means. Well that's OK. Let em think that.

That's not to deny there is always an issue with a religion that is theonomic and Islam is without question theonomic and I do believe they many have beliefs that do not comport to republican/democratic ideals. But I know Christians who also feel the same way i.e. they believe the government should get involved in the enforcement of the 10 commandments which is like really fucked up because who doesn't covet shit. My understanding is that the group receiving the most PHD's in the US are Muslims.

Extremist movements are often "rationally" driven. I mean someone can make a rational argument that is just fucking stupid based on its assumptions.. However, it's like Joe Pesci in Goodfellas. Sometimes psychopaths just gravitate to organizations that possess beliefs or tendencies that enables them to do psychopathic shit. This guy was no different then the assholes who flew the planes into the world trade center. He's either an idiot, brainwashed or a psychopath or a combination thereof.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:43 pm

I remember the time when muslims fleeing islam were coming to europe. Now they're probably going to the US.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:48 pm

@prog - This thread is not about argument and debate to find the truth in the 2+2 = 4 sense. That approach assumes that there is one truth for complex matters such as this and whoever argues the most impressively/vehemently wins, and the other should kow-tow, surrender and join the fold. How often have you seen that approach to work...taken a look at our country recently?

No wonder the Internet is full of combat:

"Jordan Peterson eviscerates XYZ".."Sam Harris..rips so and so a new one"...ABC wrecked the Internet (whatever that silly phrase means).

Ever heard the phrase "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still" ?

This thread is about seeing if one can develop a genuine and nuanced understanding of another's viewpoint, especially if one is in disagreement. It takes some courage and open mindedness to try and see where the other person might be coming from without having the fear that if you hear someone out or even see some merit in their position, without feeling that your own position is weakened.

Or more technically, if you grossly disagree with someone, then:

a) Either they are crazy, irrational etc
b) They are misinformed and have bad data
c) Perhaps just perhaps (rather very likely) that they have a different set of assumptions about how the world works

a) and b) are easy to deal with or clarify. It is the uncovering of the underlying and often implicit assumptions that provide some insight and possibly a platform for understanding and nuance.

Such inquiry more often than not takes the form of open ended questions such as "Why do you think that way? Tell me more." or "how did this impact you" and then listen for the answer without rushing to judgement or gotchas. If one is too busy thinking a.bout ones counterargument instead of genuinely listening, there will be no progress. Just win/lose discussions..and even if your adversary concedes defeat (rare occurrence) they never really change their mind.

Understanding looks something like this (BTW great movie too) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e4eP_g2E7w

(the part where she says "someone already does"...that is how you leave an impact in the others head)

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:07 pm

Overheard:

Poor White Appalachian Left Behind in the City Child: "I think Santa is real, so he brings me candy."

Recently Immigrated Poor Muslim Kid: "I don't think Santa is real, but he still brings me candy."

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:11 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:43 pm
I remember the time when muslims fleeing islam were coming to europe. Now they're probably going to the US.
They are not fleeing Islam. They are fleeing an interpretation of Islam that is militantly anti-intellectual.

The Islamic nations experienced what could be called the first Renaissance. They invented Algebra. Our translations of Aristotle are based on theirs. Think about that. The West obtained translations of Aristotle from Islamic scholars hundred of years later. It's not that they are dumb, its that they have become imprisoned to an interpretation of Islam held by an extremist group where if you think anything is not government by the will of Allah, you are going to be in an untenable position.

Some of these motherfuckers have like Jeff Bezos money but they never started an Amazon. They sit on oil. You would think with that type of money they would be contributing shit. Like China at least. But the bottom line is that if they need their ass scratched, they fly in an American specialist to do it for them. I guess that's kind of nice. But I digress. The point is that it like an intellectual genocide. The loss of contribution by all those people. But this is happening to people who are actually alive. Name one great contribution to the world that has come out of an Islamic nation in recent times. Nothing. But they do come from Muslims who have made it to the West.

prognastat
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by prognastat » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:23 pm

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:48 pm
@prog - This thread is not about argument and debate to find the truth in the 2+2 = 4 sense. That approach assumes that there is one truth for complex matters such as this and whoever argues the most impressively/vehemently wins, and the other should kow-tow, surrender and join the fold. How often have you seen that approach to work...taken a look at our country recently?
This wasn't my reasoning though. Nowhere did I say whoever argues most impressively/vehemently wins. I'm saying we are more likely to discover truth if both sides bring their best case. Also in this process even if the one I'm debating with doesn't "win" I might still learn from the interaction and vice versa. They might bring up a point that I hadn't considered and though it doesn't undermine my point it leads to further thought and consideration.

Also my belief in what is best is most definitely not what is being used as most political debate in the US is not how can I best present my opinion. The majority isn't how considering how they can best present their case, but how can I smear my opponent rather than address their points.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:37 pm

@prog - See, I feel a bit differently about discovering the truth when "both sides bring their best case". I think what you get then is a verdict like in a court case, someone wins, someone loses. But since you don't have a judge though in this example, what you get is a hung case.

I repeat...if you frame the search for truth as point and counterpoint, you will only get fanboys of each party and good TV ratings. Nothing gets done.

Most humans are not convinced just by superior reasoning but by winning their hearts and minds. And to do that you have to understand their implicit assumptions.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:43 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:42 pm
No, it just makes me sick, because I have known and cared for many Muslims, mostly children, and I was a lightly practicing convert myself for a couple years.
I am curious. How did it feel as a 'western' woman to be practicing islam light version? What made you want to try it out? Did you feel any dichotomy ?
Any insights you could share about what you learnt for your experience? What made you give it up?

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm

Augustus wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:30 pm
Have you ever read Mein Kampf? It's the same evil psychobabble. I'm sure it's been written many times by many people.

As a gun owner who was once against restrictions, I am now for restrictions (I favor the British style club system where your peers have to approve of you for 2 years before you can own one). I blame the internet and echo chamber effect. Somewhere there is a group of people who cheered this guy on and encouraged him, just like there was for Sandy Hook and many others. They all need to go to prison. They hide behind free speech, but they are guilty of conspiracy to murder.

News coverage of mass murder should also be banned IMO, since these psychos think of it as a scoreboard.
No I haven't read Mein Kampf so don't know if it is psychobabble but do know what it resulted in. I probably should read it, if only to 'hear it from the horse's mouth'. I mean I have seen enough videos that gave an explanation of what HiItler wanted, his vision etc..perhaps time to go to the source and maybe then I don't need to depend on 3rd party interpretation so much.

I have been a gun owner too for sharpshooting at the range (good for concentration, like archery) but gave it up due to my peripatetic lifestyle what with the hassle of different regulations by state and all that not to mention countries. I did think that guns were too easily available..imagine my surprise when as an immigrant, I came into this country and the first time went to a Walmart and was amazed to see people just be able to buy shotguns and rifles over the counter like milk and bread. My dad was a Colonel in the Indian Army and fought in 3 wars (2 pakistan, 1 china) and I had never seen a gun in our home. But at the same time I thought it was pretty cool too that there was that level of freedom in this country. I tell you if you do that in India, they will all be shooting each other in a matter of minutes...have to hand it to the people here that we aren't all dead given that there are 300 million plus of them out there.

Which kind of begs the question why haven't all people whacked each other already? For the amount of guns and ammo out there, it seems like an admirable amount of self restraint that we don't have a permanent shoot fest. Is it because of the strong rule of law..i.e. penalties for using guns illegally? Or is it the fear that if I have one, maybe the other guy does too? Is it some arcane memory of "love thy neighbor" we learnt in our formative years? Some combination of these or more variables? What I am trying to say is that to me it seems that based on the number of guns we have out there vs gun shootings, we don't have a 'gun problem epidemic'. Could it be that the people who get pissed off when they feel threatened about their 2nd amendment rights are not the ones overreacting? Although I do think that sometimes bullets are too cheap, especially when I hear of innocent people killed in a Chicago drive-by or when I see bullet holes in National forest and BLM signs.

Maybe Chris Rock had it right on gun control : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db0Y4qIZ4PA

Augustus
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:19 pm

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
I had a really great professor who had us critique Mein Kampf from a logical fallacy and persuasion point of view. It was very well written in those regards, especially the appeals to science. I could see how a lot of not very critical people could get caught up in it. I think the professors goal was to vaccinate us against similar appeals in the future, I recommend the exercise. Pull up a list of logical fallacies and an article on pathos, ethos, and logos, read through them then identify them in Mein Kampf.

I believe you on the India remark, I very much value the western idea that individual lives have high value, if that makes sense. My wife is Chinese, which are similar to Indians, in that competition for resources is fierce due to general scarcity. Wife and I believe that if you tripled or quadrupled the US population we would become a lot more fierce.

There's a gun debate somewhere in the archives that discusses us gun culture in depth.

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:57 am

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
...have to hand it to the people here that we aren't all dead given that there are 300 million plus of them out there.
Fact check: USA is 1 of 6 countries that make up for half of the world's gun related deaths.

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