NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

@prog - This thread is not about argument and debate to find the truth in the 2+2 = 4 sense. That approach assumes that there is one truth for complex matters such as this and whoever argues the most impressively/vehemently wins, and the other should kow-tow, surrender and join the fold. How often have you seen that approach to work...taken a look at our country recently?

No wonder the Internet is full of combat:

"Jordan Peterson eviscerates XYZ".."Sam Harris..rips so and so a new one"...ABC wrecked the Internet (whatever that silly phrase means).

Ever heard the phrase "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still" ?

This thread is about seeing if one can develop a genuine and nuanced understanding of another's viewpoint, especially if one is in disagreement. It takes some courage and open mindedness to try and see where the other person might be coming from without having the fear that if you hear someone out or even see some merit in their position, without feeling that your own position is weakened.

Or more technically, if you grossly disagree with someone, then:

a) Either they are crazy, irrational etc
b) They are misinformed and have bad data
c) Perhaps just perhaps (rather very likely) that they have a different set of assumptions about how the world works

a) and b) are easy to deal with or clarify. It is the uncovering of the underlying and often implicit assumptions that provide some insight and possibly a platform for understanding and nuance.

Such inquiry more often than not takes the form of open ended questions such as "Why do you think that way? Tell me more." or "how did this impact you" and then listen for the answer without rushing to judgement or gotchas. If one is too busy thinking a.bout ones counterargument instead of genuinely listening, there will be no progress. Just win/lose discussions..and even if your adversary concedes defeat (rare occurrence) they never really change their mind.

Understanding looks something like this (BTW great movie too) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e4eP_g2E7w

(the part where she says "someone already does"...that is how you leave an impact in the others head)

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Overheard:

Poor White Appalachian Left Behind in the City Child: "I think Santa is real, so he brings me candy."

Recently Immigrated Poor Muslim Kid: "I don't think Santa is real, but he still brings me candy."

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:43 pm
I remember the time when muslims fleeing islam were coming to europe. Now they're probably going to the US.
They are not fleeing Islam. They are fleeing an interpretation of Islam that is militantly anti-intellectual.

The Islamic nations experienced what could be called the first Renaissance. They invented Algebra. Our translations of Aristotle are based on theirs. Think about that. The West obtained translations of Aristotle from Islamic scholars hundred of years later. It's not that they are dumb, its that they have become imprisoned to an interpretation of Islam held by an extremist group where if you think anything is not government by the will of Allah, you are going to be in an untenable position.

Some of these motherfuckers have like Jeff Bezos money but they never started an Amazon. They sit on oil. You would think with that type of money they would be contributing shit. Like China at least. But the bottom line is that if they need their ass scratched, they fly in an American specialist to do it for them. I guess that's kind of nice. But I digress. The point is that it like an intellectual genocide. The loss of contribution by all those people. But this is happening to people who are actually alive. Name one great contribution to the world that has come out of an Islamic nation in recent times. Nothing. But they do come from Muslims who have made it to the West.

prognastat
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by prognastat »

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:48 pm
@prog - This thread is not about argument and debate to find the truth in the 2+2 = 4 sense. That approach assumes that there is one truth for complex matters such as this and whoever argues the most impressively/vehemently wins, and the other should kow-tow, surrender and join the fold. How often have you seen that approach to work...taken a look at our country recently?
This wasn't my reasoning though. Nowhere did I say whoever argues most impressively/vehemently wins. I'm saying we are more likely to discover truth if both sides bring their best case. Also in this process even if the one I'm debating with doesn't "win" I might still learn from the interaction and vice versa. They might bring up a point that I hadn't considered and though it doesn't undermine my point it leads to further thought and consideration.

Also my belief in what is best is most definitely not what is being used as most political debate in the US is not how can I best present my opinion. The majority isn't how considering how they can best present their case, but how can I smear my opponent rather than address their points.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

@prog - See, I feel a bit differently about discovering the truth when "both sides bring their best case". I think what you get then is a verdict like in a court case, someone wins, someone loses. But since you don't have a judge though in this example, what you get is a hung case.

I repeat...if you frame the search for truth as point and counterpoint, you will only get fanboys of each party and good TV ratings. Nothing gets done.

Most humans are not convinced just by superior reasoning but by winning their hearts and minds. And to do that you have to understand their implicit assumptions.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:42 pm
No, it just makes me sick, because I have known and cared for many Muslims, mostly children, and I was a lightly practicing convert myself for a couple years.
I am curious. How did it feel as a 'western' woman to be practicing islam light version? What made you want to try it out? Did you feel any dichotomy ?
Any insights you could share about what you learnt for your experience? What made you give it up?

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

Augustus wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:30 pm
Have you ever read Mein Kampf? It's the same evil psychobabble. I'm sure it's been written many times by many people.

As a gun owner who was once against restrictions, I am now for restrictions (I favor the British style club system where your peers have to approve of you for 2 years before you can own one). I blame the internet and echo chamber effect. Somewhere there is a group of people who cheered this guy on and encouraged him, just like there was for Sandy Hook and many others. They all need to go to prison. They hide behind free speech, but they are guilty of conspiracy to murder.

News coverage of mass murder should also be banned IMO, since these psychos think of it as a scoreboard.
No I haven't read Mein Kampf so don't know if it is psychobabble but do know what it resulted in. I probably should read it, if only to 'hear it from the horse's mouth'. I mean I have seen enough videos that gave an explanation of what HiItler wanted, his vision etc..perhaps time to go to the source and maybe then I don't need to depend on 3rd party interpretation so much.

I have been a gun owner too for sharpshooting at the range (good for concentration, like archery) but gave it up due to my peripatetic lifestyle what with the hassle of different regulations by state and all that not to mention countries. I did think that guns were too easily available..imagine my surprise when as an immigrant, I came into this country and the first time went to a Walmart and was amazed to see people just be able to buy shotguns and rifles over the counter like milk and bread. My dad was a Colonel in the Indian Army and fought in 3 wars (2 pakistan, 1 china) and I had never seen a gun in our home. But at the same time I thought it was pretty cool too that there was that level of freedom in this country. I tell you if you do that in India, they will all be shooting each other in a matter of minutes...have to hand it to the people here that we aren't all dead given that there are 300 million plus of them out there.

Which kind of begs the question why haven't all people whacked each other already? For the amount of guns and ammo out there, it seems like an admirable amount of self restraint that we don't have a permanent shoot fest. Is it because of the strong rule of law..i.e. penalties for using guns illegally? Or is it the fear that if I have one, maybe the other guy does too? Is it some arcane memory of "love thy neighbor" we learnt in our formative years? Some combination of these or more variables? What I am trying to say is that to me it seems that based on the number of guns we have out there vs gun shootings, we don't have a 'gun problem epidemic'. Could it be that the people who get pissed off when they feel threatened about their 2nd amendment rights are not the ones overreacting? Although I do think that sometimes bullets are too cheap, especially when I hear of innocent people killed in a Chicago drive-by or when I see bullet holes in National forest and BLM signs.

Maybe Chris Rock had it right on gun control : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db0Y4qIZ4PA

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 »

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
...have to hand it to the people here that we aren't all dead given that there are 300 million plus of them out there.
Fact check: USA is 1 of 6 countries that make up for half of the world's gun related deaths.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

up to 10 years of jail for owning a copy of the massacre video.
I wouldn't be surprized if what I wrote here was retroactively made a criminal offence which would have me face jail. This is crazy. 14 years for sharing this video. Massacre videos by muslim are widely available since years. I haven't watch the video, but putting people in jail for sharing information is a rupture of contract from the gouvernment side.

IlliniDave
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by IlliniDave »

fiby41 wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:57 am
Fact check: USA is 1 of 6 countries that make up for half of the world's gun related deaths.
Beyond the shallow pass (reading further in the same PBS report): US is 30th worldwide in total firearm-related homicides.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the ... u-s-stands

The US is 3rd worldwide in population. So the total homicide-by-firearm rank (30th) is somewhat disproportionate to the size of the nation (3rd). The US is 90th for overall homicide rate using Wikipedia as a source, 1 spot above Greenland.

It is true that suicidal people are more empowered in the US than in some other places. It's also interesting to look at where a cluster of some of the highest homicide rates are in geographic relation to the US.

None of the above is good per se, but those sorts of one-liner statistics are misleading.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by tonyedgecombe »

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:05 am
Beyond the shallow pass (reading further in the same PBS report): US is 30th worldwide in total firearm-related homicides.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the ... u-s-stands
It's interesting that there isn't a developed nation above the US in that list.

IlliniDave
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by IlliniDave »

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 am
It's interesting that there isn't a developed nation above the US in that list.
"Interesting" isn't the term I'd pick. Perhaps we're less of a "developed" nation than people like to project.

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

tonyedgecombe wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:13 am
It's interesting that there isn't a developed nation above the US in that list.
@Tony - Could you elaborate on what you are trying to imply? I want to understand your rationale and implications. Please don't make the rest of us guess and do the work for you.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Would yet another Wall Street bailout in the near future be more or less likely if the people were unarmed?

Is there a statistic for the amount of times politicians have shit their pants because the rabble is armed?

If not, can anyone produce a spreadsheet indicating guns owned by citizens-to-elites shit their pants ratio?

ZAFCorrection
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by ZAFCorrection »

The question people should be asking before throwing out pithy statistics this way or that is how many deaths are acceptable given the other outcomes of a policy. The number is clearly greater than zero a lot of the time given that any policy spread out over enough people and over enough time is going to result in someone dying.

For instance, if it is literally zero deaths for having firearms it should then be expected that there will be justification for why any of the proposed benefits of firearm possession in reality have zero value.

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Freedom_2018 wrote:I am curious. How did it feel as a 'western' woman to be practicing islam light version? What made you want to try it out? Did you feel any dichotomy ?
Any insights you could share about what you learnt for your experience? What made you give it up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smvKHCn9P9o

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
My dad was a Colonel in the Indian Army and fought in 3 wars (2 pakistan, 1 china) and I had never seen a gun in our home. But at the same time I thought it was pretty cool too that there was that level of freedom in this country. I tell you if you do that in India, they will all be shooting each other in a matter of minutes...have to hand it to the people here that we aren't all dead given that there are 300 million plus of them out there.
I read this and was was reminded of the Colonel from Andre Dubus III’s “The House of Sand And Fog.” Forgive me if you are offended by the comparison to a fictional Muslim, but I read your posts in this thread and the “Atmosphere in the Forum” thread, and found myself nodding in agreement with almost everything. It’s always encouraging to hear about people who already have an open way of thinking that come to America and enjoy an open way of living. You seem to have that fictional Colonel’s fine attributes and hopefully few of his foibles. My grandfather was a Marine and so perhaps this is in part why I can empathize.

Cheers :)

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 »

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 pm
I tell you if you do that in India, they will all be shooting each other in a matter of minutes
Gun Control and Indian Arms Act of 1878 was enacted after the First War of Independence. It has since been replaced after independence so I don't know what you are trying to get at.

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 »

Freedom_2018 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:48 pm
"how did this impact you"
One of the man who got shot had on his LinkedIn, links to, as in working for, an organization that had in its name and garnered support/donation for Ghazwa-e-Hind. It is a mythical Islamic prophecy, way past it's due date, calling for the destruction of India. I could use less of such men.
Last edited by fiby41 on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

This profile appeared in Wapo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... 88c4939d6b

The itinerant-world-traveling, disaffected, isolated, seeking-an-ideology- lifestyle reminded me of Lee Harvey Oswald. Which makes me think was LHO actually a sociopath who was limited to the mail order weaponry of his time and not just some susceptible dupe who got pawned in a bigger chess match. In retrospect, it almost seems quaint, blowing one guy's head off with a single shot rifle. But if had access to what this guy had, would he have just said fuck it and sprayed the entire grassy knoll.

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