NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Campitor
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:49 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Campitor » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:22 pm

@OP

I don't think people need video games or porn to stir murderous ambitions. Mass murderers, serial killers, and genocidal warfare have all been with us long before electronic porn, mein kampf, manifestos, and violent video entertainment. Metrics show that we're getting less violent rather than more violent in the US and worldwide - hard to see a smoking gun (pun intended since cigarette analogies were made earlier) pointing to modern day porn, games, or <insert external reason for triggering murderous intent here>.

Ever hear of the Bath School Disaster of 1927?

The Bath School disaster, sometimes known as the Bath School massacre, was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan, which killed 38 elementary schoolchildren and six adults and injured at least 58 other people. Kehoe killed his wife and firebombed his farm, then detonated an explosion in the Bath Consolidated School before committing suicide by detonating a final device in his truck.

Andrew Kehoe was the 55-year-old school board treasurer and was angered by increased taxes and his defeat in the Spring 1926 election for township clerk. He was thought to have planned his "murderous revenge" after that public defeat. He had a reputation for difficulty on the school board and in personal dealings. In addition, he was notified that his mortgage was going to be foreclosed upon in June 1926. For much of the next year, a neighbor noticed that he had stopped working on his farm and thought that he might be planning suicide. During that period, Kehoe purchased explosives and discreetly planted them on his property and under the school.


The Bath School Massacre story sounds like it could have happened today. I think the pathology of murder, especially mass murder, is complex and reducing its cause to video games, porn, or anything else is too reductionist. I think you have to look deeper into their past to see if there were any childhood traumas or aberrations in the prefrontal cortex caused by fetal alcohol syndrome, poor nutrition during fetal development, etc. Or maybe the genetic roll of the dice popped out a psychopath.

I'm not refuting that porn or violent video games have negative effects; the time lost to either can significantly impact growth in more productive areas. But I highly doubt that porn and/or violent video games are the catalysts to psychopathic killings. The New Zealand murderer "manifesto" has to be filled with broken logic. I'm sure it's filled with a bunch of twisted thinking similar to any other set of codified ideas that butcher the truth to justify killing. I haven't read his manifesto since it's been taken offline nor am I eager to read it beyond seeing what stupidity was written so I can make a mental model of a psychopath - helps to spot them should I encounter one.

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:32 am

I believe vidéo games actually prevent violence, because they offer an output for such impulses. Without them, this would happen every week.

tonyedgecombe
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:11 pm
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:02 am

Jean wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:24 am
One way to avoid those attacks would be to clearly demonstrate that Muslims aren't globaly waging or supporting a War against non muslims, and to propose a peacefull option to don't live in a Muslim country in the future.
These people aren't making rational decisions, no amount of proof is going to stop them hating the out group. It would just be derided as the elites trying to impose their will.

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 am

If you a priori consider those decisions as irrational, you aren't going anywhere. There are plenty of rational reason to kill other humans. Emotions are usually stopping us. But ignoring killer's both reason and emotion, and just discard them as crazy won't help avoid them to kill.

Tyler9000
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 am

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:15 am
But ignoring killer's both reason and emotion, and just discard them as crazy won't help avoid them to kill.
The fatal conceit of the prey is the sheltered belief that they are at the top of the food chain. Once the sheep sees the wolf as nothing but another broken sheep in need of understanding and guidance, it embraces and comforts the wolf even while the teeth sink in.

Eventually lawful good figures out that chaotic evil really does exist and stops trying to rationalize everything.
Last edited by Tyler9000 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:24 am

Tyler9000 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:08 am
Eventually lawful good figures out that chaotic evil really does exist and stops trying to rationalize everything.
+1

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:35 am

Good and evil don't exist, chaos and order are relative to one's interest. I feel like you refuse to try to think. Is there a taboo I'm not aware of, or a source to base your belief in pure chaos on?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 5213
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:41 am

Lawful good and chaotic evil do exist, but so do lawful evil (obvious choice being efficient shower routine at Auschwitz) and chaotic good (the edge of field and forest where the fruit best ripens.)

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:41 am

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:35 am
It's pretty simple, how would you feel if the NZ shooter came to a family gathering and murdered all your relatives and all the people you care about? That's how you feel about evil. It obviously exists.

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:58 am

I would think that he believes that my family was a threat to him, or that he wants someone else to take what my family has. I don't know why it's so hard to understand for most humans.
Your examples all prove my point. A forest is highly ordered, wolves are just hungry, solid Zyklon B would take several hours to turn into a lethal air concentration of gazeous cyanid gaz at 40°C.

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:03 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:58 am
I don't know why it's so hard to understand for most humans.
Because all the humans who thought the way you do got thrown out of the gene pool when the lions ate them or the rival tribes murdered them and you sat there wondering about their motivations. "Hmm, mr lion, why are you eating my foot? Is it tastey? Are you lacking nutrients in my foot joints? Or are you just experimenting? and so on..."

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:11 pm

We have exaclty the same post number.
I would rather say that we are social animals, and that for some, group cohesion and respect of authority are more important than for other, because the group get some advantages from the questioning, even if everybody doing it would paralyze the group.

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:14 pm

*scene where Jean gets eaten by lion:*
"Hi mr lion, how are you today? Hey what are you doing? Stop it lion, I am trying to understand your point of view! Are you mad at me? Did I do something wrong? Are you threatened by my family? Do you want something?"
....
"ouch! hey, that hurts! aaaahhhhhhh *gurgle gurgle*"
*vision dims and screen goes dark*
--------

The lion doesn't care Jean. If you don't kill it, it kills you. Same goes for the mass murdering assholes of the world.

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:22 pm

Yes, and that's exactly what Brenton Tarrant tought.

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:25 pm

Why do I care what Brenton Tarrant thought? Brenton Tarrant needs to be put out of his misery so he can't harm anyone else. And so does anyone like him. Just like the hypothetical lion in the scene above. I don't care why it wants to eat you, I have a family and I'm going to kill it to keep my family safe.

Tyler9000
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:41 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:35 am
Good and evil don't exist, chaos and order are relative to one's interest.
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Once you wake up to the reality of evil, the facade of moral relativism will similarly drop and you'll see the playing field a lot differently. Not every enemy can be reasoned with, and that friction against our rational expectations is why movies like Nolan's The Dark Knight are so compelling and why people have such a hard time processing truly dangerous individuals like the NZ shooter.

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:54 pm

But then, why shouldn't we kill all muslim because muslim commit terror attack?

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:55 pm

Further, I think I've seen you (Jean) mention muslims a few times. I think you are being fooled by TV, TV is all about ratings, and if it bleeds it leads. Muslims are people, and people are very similar, despite fashion trends and philosophy. Most people just want to live their lives and be left alone. That's what you want right? So does everyone else. Muslims are people, ergo most muslims just want to live their lives and be left alone. Go talk to a few of the random ones trying to live their lives and be left alone, they are very friendly.

Augustus
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Augustus » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:56 pm

Jean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:54 pm
For the love of all that is good Jean, please never say that again. That is not okay.

Jean
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:04 pm

Since when is asking a question not okay? You said we should kill all people like Brenton Tarrant. What do you mean by that? The Sunna clearly commands to kill all non muslim. Sunni muslim are either uniformed about their religion, willing to kill all non muslim (and Shia muslim as well, as they don't obey the Calif), or too coward to question their peers. I hope it's either the first or the last option, but having talked to muslims, it seems that most hope we will peacefully convert, as most of them don't like to kill people.

Post Reply