NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

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Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

@rj
Muslimhood gives them a "us", in the name of which many are already being violent against us. I will not list exactions and call for violence, commited by muslims against the indigenous european population. You're being condescending and calling my friends loser. It doesn't serve the purpose of convincing me.
It happened a lot of time during history, I don't know why you believe it can't be happening now.
Maybe it's because you grew up effectively in a time and place where effectively, scarcity was irrelevant. Oil and land were virtually free. The most direct consequence of immigration for you is an increase in the value of your assets.
Scarcity mindset is created by the percieved possibility of scarcity. I bet on scarcity in the near future. You bet on what you want, but has you have much less skin in the game than me (you don't intend to have kid and are much older), I will try to propagate my message.
In a way, it's the same issue as global warming. I think the sanest attitude is to allow every possibility about what might be true to be eard and discussed seriously. You convince flat earther by listening to them, not by calling them flatards..

Kriegsspiel
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Kriegsspiel »

Jean, have you read Reflections On The Revolution In Europe? If not, you might find it interesting/topical.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

I don't really want to bé further comfirmed in my opinions. I'de rather read a books that proves me wrong. But those who called me imature might want to read it while i'm on kegan.

frihet
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by frihet »

I understand that this is a charged topic. So I first want to thank everyone for a civil debate. Some may think that it has nothing to do with ERE but personal security comes before personal finance any day the way I see it. Not being interested in getting in the way of problems created far above my head these large societal trends need to be taken into account in your strategy. I don't know the details for the rest of Europe although I suspect it looks similar in the Western part. But after having followed the debate in Sweden for 20 years on this subject. I can't help but agree with the title of Kurdish/Swedish DR Tino Sanandaji's article from 2016.

Every time I go to work in Norway I'm asked by worried colleagues how things are going over here. They read the headlines of shootings and rapes. Of course, Norwegians love to point the fingers at us in friendly rivalry. But below it, there is a real concern. I do think we can change the nation's development as indicated in the article at the end. But sanity, a real debate about economics and consequences are needed something that has been hindered by the media for all this time. You have to ask yourself why? I don't know? I personally consider moving to Norway if things continue in the wrong direction and become an immigrant myself, hopefully as a net positive to their society in some way.

There Is Definitely Something Strange Going On" In Sweden

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02- ... ing-sweden

As this is an analytical personal finance forum. Just check some of the numbers in the article and ask yourself if you think this is sustainable in the long run? Or even if it is the most compassionate thing to do to let a small part of the young male refugees of the world come to Sweden. When a much larger percentage could be helped for that money elsewhere, including women and children.

"ET: But in major cities they will become the majority right?

TS: In Malmo, Sweden’s third largest city, it’s already almost 50% of the total. So that’s where Sweden could be going to be in a generation because Malmo started to take immigrants earlier."

"the demographic imbalance in Sweden is now even worse than China. Is this correct?

TS: Maybe in some age group, but not in overall terms of course. Some 92% of those unaccompanied migrants were male last year"

"ET: … Wait a minute, 92% of them are male?

TS: Yes, there is definitely something strange going on. More than half of the world’s refugees are women. In World War II, when Sweden took refugees from Finland, they were children and 90% were below the age of 10. But now almost all of them are late teenagers – supposedly; we know many are older for a fact. When other countries age test it turns out that the majority are not children. And when there are crimes committed and the age is investigated, often we get these absurd reports where some of these guys are older than 30 and yet the government puts them with other real minors in schools or housing, and this is creating a lot of anger now. The media created this taboo where because they are officially supposed to be children we can’t question it, and you are fascist if you do. Yet most people can see that many are adults."

"The biggest concern we have is skills. That is the main source of competitiveness for Swedish multinationals. You can’t have low skill levels and compete against Chinese workers, or for that matter Americans.

ET: This is critical for a small country like Sweden, which relies so much on technology and innovation…

TS: We can afford really high taxes and so on because Sweden is a very productive and technologically advanced society that can compensate for it. It’s not the best business environment but we have a highly educated workforce that can make up for the difference. Companies come here anyway because of our productivity, despite the higher costs.

It’s devastating if we lose this advantage. For countries like Denmark and Germany this is equally dangerous."

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@frihet:

I don't wish to disagree with your general take on the situation, but I would like to add a minor note. I teach in an American school district that is majority Arab-heritage Muslim students with Bengali heritage Muslim students also well-represented as well as significant minority of poor African-American and poor European-heritage children. It is very obvious that young men of Arab heritage often appear to be significantly more advanced in puberty or adolescence at younger ages than children of other heritages, even the African-American boys who are often much bigger for their age. OTOH, the Bengali boys, who are also recent immigrants and often Muslim, often look relatively young for their biological age. Simple reason for this striking difference is correlative genetic tendency towards early growth of significant facial hair and mature musculature striation. So, boys who I know for a fact are only 16 years old, because I also know their mothers, would strike me as being well into their 20s if I simply saw them out and about on the street. IOW, I think there is some false belief in faked birth certificates at entry due this tendency.

frihet
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by frihet »

@7Wannabe5

That might be the case. i don't have all the facts. But regardless of their age, young males, especially unemployed ones are the ones creating problems in any society. So it can't be a good idea to bring in large numbers of poorly educated ones from war-torn countries and expect that it will have no consequences. Because it clearly has, if just to create a feeling of unsafety when you meet them in large groups in the city. Which basically is the only annoyance that has impacted me personally so far.

What the future will bring we'll see.......

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I don't entirely disagree, but might suggest that old men who haven't gotten laid in over 2.5 years can also sometimes prove problematic, even if/when they have plenty of money and great jobs. Of course, super grouchy is only likely to result in violence at the level of policy. I know this is true, because if/when they do get laid, and especially if you fix them a sandwich too, they are far more likely to get all super mellow and be like "Hey, baby, here's a $20, go buy yourself some new red shoes, and toss some candy to those raggedy kids."

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

It all boils down to this. Either those young male will have sucess with local women and creat ressent among the local male, either they won't and become violent because of it. All that would be required for them to be widely welcomed would be to bring their sisters with them, and be willing to have them mary the indigenous populations.

It is also intersting to note, that many female are very angry about sex bot, and not very happy about the idea of welcoming 2 millions of 20yo ukranian women.

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

In my book, it really depends on whether the sex bots and 20 year old Ukrainian women are capable and willing to accompany 62 year old men to their colonoscopy appointments.


Also, the fact that there are much older significant issues of black/white conflict in my neck of the woods makes the influx and assimilation of Muslim refugees a bit of a different flavor of problem. First generation refugee teenagers are not exactly like third generation low-income projects teenagers or white teenager who found his junkie mother dead at the bottom of a staircase and is now being "raised" by the guy who was his Mom's BF. By far, the scariest Muslim I have ever met was that kid after he converted at the age of 13. When I mildly scolded him for wasting some school supplies, he just looked at me with half-dead, half-defiant eyes and said "Allah will provide."
Last edited by 7Wannabe5 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jean
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jean »

Yeah exactly. Seeing those men as willing to have sex with local woman without carying the cost of building and maintaining this society is adding to the issue. We don't like to have more competition and there is no reason to enjoy having your market opened to more competitor. Especially in a field were you can't reconvert.

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Cross post.

Jason
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Jason »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:18 pm
When I mildly scolded him for wasting some school supplies, he just looked at me with half-dead, half-defiant eyes and said "Allah will provide."
Well that explains why you can't find a Staples in Kabul.

7Wannabe5
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Seriously, the worst-behaved Muslim immigrant teenagers I teach are about as scary as one of the kids on "Welcome Back Kotter."

Freedom_2018
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by Freedom_2018 »

I noticed how little coverage was there for the Sri Lanka coordinated attack killing 350 plus vs the New Zealand shooting toll of 50 of a whacko gunman. Or hardly anything about the Nigerian religious killings this year of almost 300.

Seems like the mainstream media outlets only promote one type of narrative which makes me think the backlash will be only worse.

I find the US to be incredibly tolerant but wonder if the patience will run out at some point.

IlliniDave
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by IlliniDave »

Since ISIS copped to the Sri Lanka bloodshed, it doesn't insert well into the Orange Man Bad framework. :) Much of what I remember hearing about Nigeria was concurrent with Christchurch, so overshadowed by it despite the much higher loss of life. In defense of the US media (something that comes reluctantly to me) it's arguably much more jarring to hear about such events in a place like New Zealand, considered by most to be a peaceful and "progressive" place than it is to hear about comparable events in more exotic places with cultures more different to ours. That said, you are correct that any heinous act committed by someone of European descent against people of non-European descent is going to get a lot more amplification in the present US media-political climate (doubly so if committed with a firearm) than any other combination of perpetrator/victim/motive/methodology.

I don't know how much is due to tolerance versus simply not paying attention. It's likely that it is predominantly only the true ideologues (in this case on the right) are keeping score.

jacob
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by jacob »

In this particular case, the [alt-]right media is promoting the alternative narrative that Christianity is under attack. Basically, media is in the business of telling their audience what they like to hear and not what they don't want to hear about but perhaps need to hear. If they did that they wouldn't stay in business for long. If you want to hear about hot spot killings/conflicts in general, I recommend foreign policy and strategic intelligence news instead of mainstream or right-wing news. Nearly everything is being reported somewhere.

A more general perspective is that humans in general don't care much about far-away strangers whether it is in distance, time, or culture. The discount factor for other humans is incredibly strong. As an example, consider how much money you would pay now to to prevent the death of someone living on your block tomorrow ... vs on your block twenty years from now ... vs in your country tomorrow ... vs from your country tomorrow ... vs from your culture/club/tribe tomorrow ... vs none of the above. For most people, the price of the last one is so close to zero they don't even want to spend 2 minutes reading about it.

In short, what matters to humans in terms of whether [the death of] other humans are interesting---especially once the novelty factor wears off---is how many boxes of commonality can be checked. Not so much what is actually happening. An embarrassing exercise in contrast and compare might be to look at the coverage (and aid) of Katrina and Maria respectively. Death tolls were about the same order of magnitude, but I bet Maria doesn't ring a bell with most Americans. Maria? What was that again?!

prognastat
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by prognastat »

There's probably some evolutionary aspect to it in the sense that the more similar the people/location it happened to is to our own the more it feels like it could have happened to us and thus the perceived need to be aware of it and possibly account for it in your own life. Thus the closer the victims/perpetrators our to ourselves the more likely we are to pay attention.

On top of that most news media is a for profit venture and so in most cases they are going to focus on what gets the most clicks/views.

daylen
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by daylen »

@prognastat

Another evolutionary aspect(*) is that genes are more likely to be altruistic (or at least non-violent) towards copies of themselves, therefore organisms that share genes or genetic expression are more likely to be altruistic towards others that are phenotypically similar to them (estimation heuristic). This is related to "kin-selection" in the literature, but humans have a high degree of "cultural malleability" relative to any other organism(**). Kin-selection or the like is still a major influence due to our steep spatial discount functions. It is also interesting to note that our temporal discount functions are responsible for our ability to plan ahead longer than (any?) other species and influences the rate of interest in our economy.

(*) Probably just a different way of explaining the same functionality.

(**) This is related to why it takes 25 years to fully develop our pre-frontal cortex, and also to Chomsky's work on generative grammar. Humans have traded some degree of natural instinct for the ability to learn a flexible language. The long window of immaturity/vulnerability is a major cost to short-term reproductive success, but in exchange we can develop a wide diversity of abilities.
Last edited by daylen on Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by IlliniDave »

jacob, alternate narrative to what other narrative about Sri Lanka?

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fiby41
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Re: NZ Shooter used the term overton window in manifesto

Post by fiby41 »

Jason wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:56 pm
Well that explains why you can't find a Staples in Kabul.
Fun facts:
UN finds that US forces killed more Afghan civilians than
Taliban and ISIS did so far in 2019
https://unama.unmissions.org/protection ... ns-reports

Kabul was last of the Central Asian kingdoms to fall to Islamic conversion which was until the 11th century run by people who called themselves the Hindushahis.
daylen wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:30 am
@prognastat
Phenotypically similar to them
By the rest of your post I'm guessing you meant to say genotype.

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