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Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:53 am
by prognastat
First off, surprisingly no one is refuting "a 10 year old's argument", you fail to do so in your criticism right here too rather talking about how your were enlightened by the greater purpose. This has done nothing to actually address the point he makes or cover your change from agreeing with him to somehow disagreeing. Unless you don't actually disagree, but rather that this greater purpose is for the greater good in which case you are just excusing it.

Secondly, he is making multiple points even in just this one segment of one debate. Let alone the rest of his career.

Also it doesn't sound like you've experienced much growth on the part of your personality that felt glee in feeling superior to other people from when you were 10 to now and rather have just changed the target of your judgement. Then you judged the religious, now you judge the irreligious. This might be worth some introspection to see where these feelings are coming from and if they are entirely healthy.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:05 pm
by Freedom_2018
@prognastat : I tried to understand what you were saying but honestly I could not comprehend your writing. So I had someone else also look at the whole thread and see if your post made sense to them (since its been over 6yrs since I engaged in any work, I sometimes wonder if my comprehension is not up to the mark). They couldn't make sense of your post either. So I don't know how to reply you. Their feedback to me though was that I tend to ask questions that might push people's buttons and I do admit to that tendency out of a desire to know what makes people tick and why. I do this much more in real life too but assuredly it is without malice or glee (though perhaps at 10 it was more of a rebellion against parental tyranny so some momentary glee might have been involved, tempered later by my father's leather belt :-)

I just want to know. I find people, human value systems and such stuff fascinating. In real life there is often collateral damage if one goes too far (much to my frustration). I do offer an examination of my innards too but very few take me up on the offer perhaps because of the implicit reciprocity built into it.

Anyways, I have no like/dislike feeling for Sam Harris. Would give him a ride in my car if his automobile broke down and would use it to ask him why he thinks the way he does...because I do think his thoughts are a bit misguided and being a public figure he has influence. And even if we had a vigorous disagreement, I would never ask him to get out of the car :-)

@zaf - had to google 'IDW bonafide'. Learnt a new phrase : Intellectual Dark Web. Honestly the IDW stuff seems quite normal, doesn't it? Just people expressing their viewpoints and supporting it with their reasoning. For a second I had thought the IDW was something to do with NAMBLA and the like. Phew..relieved :-) I think his podcasts/discussions with other speakers on his website might be a little more interesting.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:22 pm
by daylen
Critique of The Moral Landscape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxalrwPNkNI

----------

On a side note: I do enjoy his podcast, but he is blind to his own assumptions.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:41 pm
by thegreatvoid
Love Sam. Used to listen to all his podcasts, but stopped because it turned from educational to Entertainment. Wish he was less joe rogan/ tim Ferris. Selling his app ( when he clearly doesn't need the money, because he comes from Jewish Hollywood Money )

He should do some research/ write a book, rather than do political commentary

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:50 am
by Jason
Campitor wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:26 pm
History is replete with smart men doing or believing in stupid things:

[*]Mathematician Paul Erdos would take amphetamines.
I was just introduced to Paul Erdos yesterday through an essay written by Charles Krauthammer. I had never heard of the man so I went down his bunny hole. I found this article.

http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/ ... n-man.html

I think there is something to be said for not unequivocally accepting the opinions of super-geniuses outside of their primary field of specialty. Paul Erdos was an exceptional mathematician but an extremely strange individual. I will not speculate but it was a known fact that he slept in the same bed with his mother until he was in his late teens. The amphetamine thing kind of cracked me up because it was like he was the Keith Richards of math. Instead of guitar riffs he played with primary numbers.

On a tangental note, their was something ERE-ish about his life. His insatiable and singular obsession with mathematics combined with his willingness to collaborate allowed him to build up a network of associates throughout the world who would temporarily house him in exchange for co-authoring papers with him. He claimed to have little possessions and apparently gave most of his reward money away after receiving it. He never married or had children. I would certainly let him do my math homework but outside of that, I would not be searching for his opinion on other matters.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:16 am
by jacob
IIRC, my Erdos number (the degree of Kevin Bacon separation wrt scientific publications) is 7.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:16 am
by Jason
I had a feeling that was coming.

My favorite anecdote was when he was four years old he was in a store with his mother and it occurred to him that he was going to die. From that day forth, he always wished he was younger.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:54 pm
by chenda
He was also a spiritual seeker and has an interest in Buddhism and Hinduism, and has written a book on such things. He seems to have only one foot in the materialist camp and I wonder if one day he will leap the other way. Sam that is not the weird maths guy.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:14 pm
by platypus
Jason wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:50 am
I think there is something to be said for not unequivocally accepting the opinions of super-geniuses outside of their primary field of specialty.
I wonder if the world has always been this way (where experts opine on things outside their area of expertise and people eagerly listen), or if it's a new trend.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:57 pm
by daylen
@platypus Definitely to a much greater degree now with technologies such as social media, but I imagine it has always been true in agrarian civilizations where role specialization is prevalent. Successful people tend to become more successful (Pareto), and humans tend to compare themselves to others when searching for advantages (wealth inequality increases suicide rate regardless of absolute wealth).

This is a major problem, but it is still just a surface effect of something deeper. Many people are looking to celebrities (all kinds) for lifestyle design, but celebrities tend to be abnormal in some way. Fame and fortune tend to amplify natural dispositions.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:25 pm
by jacob
daylen wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:57 pm
This is a major problem, but it is still just a surface effect of something deeper. Many people are looking to celebrities (all kinds) for lifestyle design, but celebrities tend to be abnormal in some way. Fame and fortune tend to amplify natural dispositions.
Also people (MOPs?) use celebrities to reflect aspects of themselves. If they like you, they reflect/project their best qualities in you. If they don't, they reflect/project their worst qualities. I've found that most opinions are ultimately subjective reflections ... or maybe that's just my reflecting back.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:02 am
by luxagraf
jacob wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:25 pm
Also people (MOPs?) use celebrities to reflect aspects of themselves. If they like you, they reflect/project their best qualities in you. If they don't, they reflect/project their worst qualities.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/553506 ... -there-who

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:38 pm
by Jason
In a twist of irony, I was thinking about the time I watched Ben Affleck get his Hollywood ass handed to him in a debate on Islam. I didn't realize that the ass hander was one Sam Harris. So when you break things down, it's a debate between one guy who's mother created Golden Girls and another guy who tapped J-Lo.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... maher.html

I will disagree with Sam Harris on many things. But I agreed with him here. Why Ben Affleck felt that he was qualified to debate Islam is beyond comprehension. It's like a debate between two rich frat boys and it was obvious which one made it to class.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:11 pm
by Loner
He lost my respect when he ridiculed himself trying to debate Chomsky. He showed himself incapable of discussing reasonably, and that is all the worst because he seems to hold reason as the highest human quality.

From the start, Chomsky shows that he is interested in discussing and exploring viewpoints while Harris refuses to engage in conversation and tries to look morally superior (yet fails). It looks he just wanted some creds for debating someone more famous than him. As a result, he came across like anything but a serious intellectual.

Surprisingly, even though he ended up looking stubborn and ill-intentioned, he decided nonetheless to post the exchange on his website.

 https://samharris.org/the-limits-of-discourse/

I have not read him since.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:43 pm
by Jason
There is a documentary "Collission" where Christopher Hitchens travels the country debating Christianity. Despite personally holding antithetical views to him, if Jesus Christ agreed to come on stage and walk across a pool of water, I wouldn't have debated him. He was that knowledgeable and brilliant. I do not feel the same about Sam Harris.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:21 pm
by RealPerson
I have to admit that this thread has cast Sam Harris is an entirely different light. I had not delved as deep into his writings as some of you apparently have. Thanks for giving me this additional insight.

As for Hitchens, it would have been unwise for anybody to debate him, very possibly Christ himself. He departed to soon from our world.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:50 pm
by Jason
I remember Hitchens saying around the time of his death, when he was bald, ravaged and withering (and I paraphrase): "I'm thinking of converting to Christianity in order that when I die there will be one less believer in the world." You have to admire such commitment.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:45 am
by chenda
Hitchins was a good showman with a quick mind but imo it covered up religions critiques which were mediocre at best. He wasted his talents on a producing a lot of well written nonsense.

Interestingly his brother, a right wing Daily Mail journalist, has become a practicing Christian after seeing a vision of the hellfires. He's a written a book called The Rage Against God. I don't think the brothers got along too well.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:09 am
by Jason
When arguing against religion, specifically Christianity, I got the idea that Hitchens needed it to not be true more than he believed it to not be true. I have a two-cent opinion why but it's just speculation. It just seemed very personal to him. He admitted during the debate that he never heard of the Christian understanding of the noetic effects of sin which was surprising in that its a pretty significant issue. That being said, I wouldn't want to stand him down. His need and failure to receive Gore Vidal's mantel was kind of pathetic. That being said, the guy could be a beast, like he was on Kissinger.

Re: Sam Harris - Idiot?

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:33 am
by chenda
@jason Agreed. The idea of New Atheism as fulfilling people's religious needs seems quite plausible. The notion of no god or afterlife might be reassuring for some.

I see Dawkin's crew have actually designed a symbol which you can wear, presumably in lieu of a cross or the shahada, to show the world you are saved from religion. It makes me laugh. There must be a business opportunity for selling busts of Dawkins for the new atheists to do their daily puja to. (Can you copyright a head ?) I think this actually happened to Epicurus in ancient times.

That said, I do enjoy listening to them and finding faults in their arguments. It's strengthened my religious beliefs.