Civil War in France

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Jean
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Jean » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:32 pm

Hundreds of people are being arrested.

RealPerson
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by RealPerson » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:40 pm

Jean wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:49 am
Croissants are becoming unafordable to many frenchs.
Now that is a problem! Vive la revolution!

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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Solvent » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:01 pm

RealPerson wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:01 am
...dipping their fresh baked perfectly flaky croissants in their cup of coffee with the right amount of crema, there is not going to be a revolution.
French coffee certainly makes me desire revolution.

chenda
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by chenda » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:10 pm

Let them eat cake...

RealPerson
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by RealPerson » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:08 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:44 am
The French love revolutions, don't be so culturally insensitive.
If they start cutting their baguettes with newly sharpened guillotines watch out! I didn't think they revolt too often but when they do it gets ugly in a hurry.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:14 am

France only produces about 1% of the crude oil it uses. The rest is imported.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Stahlmann » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:00 pm

When we get a leak from Western intelligence services that the Kremlin troll factory is spreading fake news in our societies again, we can organize a real commentary festival. We write about it for weeks. On the other hand, when the report of the International Labor Organization on the stagnation of wages in Europe (especially the lower middle class wages, ie the group which has been on the streets in France for five weeks), only [this isn't about looking for messiah] will write about it in our media. There is not much better in the western media.

In 2017, real wages fell in France, Italy, Germany and Spain. In other countries (except Poland [well...]), they barely grew. It can also be seen from the ILO statistics that wages ceased to follow productivity, i.e. even when Europeans work more efficiently, this has no impact on their earnings. The profit from GDP growth goes to the owners of capital (owners of companies, shareholders, ie up to 1% of the most affluent). And it is not the only such report. The decline in the share of wages in the GDP of Western countries has been noticed by the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank for years.

The real message is: we have a problem in Europe not with Putin but with middle class erosion, and middle class problems usually lead to democracy problems. And it is only on such a prepared ground that Kremlin trolls can flourish and wreak havoc.

...

We do not want to admit that the freedom of movement of workers between EU countries causes some problems (for example wage stagnation in some professional groups).

...
In Ireland, the meat business benefited the most from immigrants. Slaughterhouses were closed for one day to release the entire crew (it allowed to bypass the regulations on group layoffs), then people were re-employed, but for as much as 70 percent. rate. Did we do anything about it? [bro, it's capitalism-prank time!]
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/ ... ladac.html

said ILO report:
https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/publi ... 650553.pdf (well, I simply pointing out it, I just gave it a very quick blink, don't want to turn out this discussion into link exchange...)
Last edited by Stahlmann on Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jacob
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by jacob » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:06 pm

The average real wages in the US has stagnated in the US for 40 years as well. It pretty much coincided with the peak of world energy/capita consumption. This result is perhaps not so surprising then. At least we can still afford food.

Overall, nominal gains has indeed gone to capital and technology. Numerically it doesn't matter as much as it's mainly just sitting there in paper as it doesn't translate into real consumption at nearly the same rate. What it does it to establish a tiered class system between the have-yachts and the haves.

Could easily be that this is why populism is rising. If people are mainly valued as consumers rather than voters and they have less and less money, relatively speaking...

Jean
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Jean » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:07 pm

My brother worked in a slaughterhouse, he was making less than someone who never worked, on disability insurance.
Some people are having trouble buying food.
It's not going to stop soon, the tipping point could be police joining the movement.
Taxation is getting very unfair in France.

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Bankai
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Bankai » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:16 pm

Jean wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:07 pm
Taxation is getting very unfair in France.
In what way? Too much or not enough?

Looking here, France seems to be in line with other high taxing countries in Europe. Your typical middle-class person would pay 5,154 tax on the average salary of 35,976 for an effective rate of ~14% according to this online calc That hardly seems excessive?

Also, VAT seems at the lower end compared with the rest of EU?

thegreatvoid

Re: Civil War in France

Post by thegreatvoid » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:21 pm

:geek:
Last edited by thegreatvoid on Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Seppia
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Seppia » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:22 pm

Still taxes are lower than in Italy, significantly lower if you have kids.
The French taxation system is extremely fair, especially if you consider what you get in exchange.
You (I'm assuming Jean is French IIRC) have a functioning public sector, great public transport, healthcare and infrastructure. Most of your schools suck though (most French, even with high education, cannot write their language properly).

Having lived 8 years of my life between Paris, Lyon and Nice I would say the only thing that really doesn't work is integration and social mobility: among those I know well, no country is more segregated, and it is surprising how (not) integrated the Muslim population is.

My guess is that the issues originated after la guerre d'Algérie, when so many poor and desperate northern Africans came to France in the span of a few years, and most were placed in the infamous cités.
That cut them out from good infrastructure, good jobs, good education and ultimately developed hate.

Paris is a great city to visit as a tourist but I'm very happy I don't live there anymore

RealPerson
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by RealPerson » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:27 pm

Bankai wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:16 pm
In what way? Too much or not enough?

Looking here, France seems to be in line with other high taxing countries in Europe. Your typical middle-class person would pay 5,154 tax on the average salary of 35,976 for an effective rate of ~14% according to this online calc That hardly seems excessive?
Maybe so, but the direction has been reversed lately. Big tax cuts for the rich and a big tax hike for energy. The energy hike hits low and middle income people obviously harder than the rich. France may be in line with other European countries, but the combination of these 2 recent decisions has infuriated the masses. Some 70% of French people agree with the protesters. After decades of stagnation, they are irate at seeing the rich make out like bandits while they get to pay the bulk of the energy tax. The perception is that Macron is the president for the rich. Add to that the anxiety about violent young muslims, terrorism and the recent waves of new immigrants and it becomes easy to see that this is becoming an combustable mixture. I guess they are just waiting for the right kind spark.

Jean
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Jean » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:44 pm

I don't live in France. There is not only taxation, there are social charges which are directly taken from salary. When I say unfair, I don't mean too much or not enough. I mean, when working, you only get a fraction of what your employers' pay (less than a half) and all the moneys is either going to those cités of french hating algerians, or to different class of government worker, from train worker (who retire at 50..) to senators who all have huge advantages. The swiss president takes the train alone like anyone else, the french president needs tanks to protect his office....
It looks a lot like there is a very impermeable rulling classe which is using algerians as a threat or as a scapegoat to squeeze the Frenchs into some sort of slavery. If you have a work ethic in France, If you're smart, you leave, if you're less smart, you're screwed and will be enslaved. Many people are able to escape this system, but it only leads to more squeezing on those who can't. And now, they're revolting.
People just wan't to be able to make a living out of their work. It's no value to them that you can have 8 kids and live on welfare. That's not what they wan't. Their are people who worked their whole life and lived modestly, who know can't even eat every day. All the money is going into elites (urban center) and immigrants. That's close enough to the truth.
The repression on the protester has been huge. Theire were more than a 1000 preemptive arrest before the last protest (like, the night before, in theire home) on the opposite, they keep repeating, on the opposite, they aren't able to stop terror attacks, despite them being perpetrated mostly by convinced criminals.
The guy who commited the attack in strassbourg was on a watch list, he was able to pass trough a systematic checkpoint, while having a warant on him and carrying a weapon. Maybe the cop where just really tired, but when people see the difference between how they are treated compared to muslim, they get angry.
You have muslim praying in the street, calling for murder, and the police protect them. And then, they go full force against peacefull protesters. People are getting angry against them too. It is the last moment if they want to switch side.
This makes me angry too. I hope I stayed polite.

Seppia
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Seppia » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:57 pm

@realperson
Things don’t happen in a vacuum
France’s tax system is already among the most punitive for the wealthy
You have a robin tax IIRC, and both dividends and capital gains are taxed 30%, among the highest rates in Europe.
Plus corporate taxes are high ecc ecc
When it goes too far (ie the populist proposal by Jollande to tax revenues above 1.2 million Euros by 75%) the rich just vote with their feet and leave.

@Jean: part of what you’re mentioning is what I referred to as the biggest problem of France (segregation).
My understanding was that a huge part of the protest was coming from public sector workers and people who want to lower the retirement age (there’s many of those in Italy too, I call them “people against math”), so I’m not sure I’m fully getting your point

Jean
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Jean » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:05 pm

Public sector worker are the one usually protesting, that's why they have such a low retirment age. Not this time. Now it's more about the ressources being wasted and the lack of democracy.

RealPerson
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by RealPerson » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:28 pm

@Seppia
I am not taking a personal position here. This is what I hear from my French friends. The French economy lacks growth and progressive taxes have shielded the lower incomes/government workers from the worst effects. I am aware of the wealth tax that chased rich people out of France, notably the actor Gerard Depardieu. It could very well be that Macron reversed what was a tax to chase out the rich. That would be a catch 22. By reducing the taxes on the rich, they had to find money somewhere. So why not sell an energy tax as "good for the environment"? I guess the message wasn't sold well.

Your point is well taken. People who studied hard, work hard and make a lot of money often don't favor very progressive taxation levels. It feels like having to hand over your hard earned money to people who simply chose to take it easy and not work as hard as you. Hence the perception of punitive taxation.

I remember a discussion about your avoidance of Italian taxes by taking advantage of the tax law. You are obviously very willing to vote with your feet......well done!


tonyedgecombe
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by tonyedgecombe » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:45 am

RealPerson wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:28 pm
Your point is well taken. People who studied hard, work hard and make a lot of money often don't favor very progressive taxation levels. It feels like having to hand over your hard earned money to people who simply chose to take it easy and not work as hard as you. Hence the perception of punitive taxation.
I know a couple of people who run businesses in France, most of their complaints aren't about tax. Rather it's about the bureaucracy and hurdles put in their way by the state. I think I read France has twice as many companies with 49 staff as with 50 because once they reach 50 the employment regulations become more onerous.

I had the impression Macron was planning to sweep a lot of this away but it seems people quite like it.

Jean
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Re: Civil War in France

Post by Jean » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:30 am

It isn't getting better, the dead and mutilated are to be counted in the dozens. The repression is getting more and more violent. Macron is insulting its people. The interior minister is linked to organised crime. Here is a quite objective account in english:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqXih-xSwag

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