Should everyone be allowed to vote?

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Campitor
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Campitor » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:56 pm

The problem with a voter intelligence litmus test (political, historical, constitutional) is the assumption that an educated voter will make an unbiased decision based on facts, that they will all reach the same conclusions from the same set of facts, or that they lack any political agendas that may be harmful to society or governance.

We wrestle with the same questions that perplexed the constitutional framers and delegates. The despotism that is possible when the aristocracy governs versus the tyranny of mob rule. Today's aristocracies are the professors, the top 20%, the politicians, and venture capitalist per the articles most of us have read in the other ERE political threads. I see the capacity for harm in both. From the identity politics pushed by the intelligentsia of the extreme left to the xenophobia pushed by the intelligentsia of the extreme right. What makes a good voter in my opinion is a person of good moral character who can sympathize with his political opponents while honestly sifting through the debris of error in search of truth.

Voting should be easy, should be 100% verifiable, and should include some kind of identity check. I'm sure there will be voters that may have problems getting an identification but how pervasive is that problem versus the political chicanery that can occur when no proof of identity is needed? I feel the former would be more conducive to voting integrity than the latter.

In Ecuador, where I was born, you are required to vote. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/2 ... -mandatory. I think the US should do the same but only after making voting easier. Voting should be done on weekends or be made holidays. I doubt this will ever happen in the US because it's easier for politicians to manipulate their parties versus trying to appeal to a large sector of centrists that swing lightly left or right depending on the issue.

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plantingourpennies
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by plantingourpennies » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:35 pm

Mikeallison wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:48 pm
plantingourpennies wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:03 pm
Plot Twist-would you support penalizing citizens in some way if they didn't vote?
I think the whole recent obamacare debacle shows that people in the states really, really resent the government compelling behavior.
"Obamacare popularity and profitability reaches all time high" (March 2018)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapse ... f3e17adfab

Popularity tracking 2012-2018
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -1130.html

Government controls behavior in innumerable ways-most of these ways just haven't been politicized like ACA.

Australia (former colony, english common law, our cultural cousins in most ways) has compulsory voting. In the 2016 election about 91% of eligible voters cast a ballot. This was apparently the lowest level of participation since 1925! The fine appears to be between 20-190 dollars if you don't get to the polls. Amazing.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... qnij2.html

Mikeallison
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Mikeallison » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:47 pm

plantingourpennies wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:35 pm

"Obamacare popularity and profitability reaches all time high"


"It was a good week for the Affordable Care Act if you’re looking at last week’s polls and health insurance company profits."

I'm not debating that insurance companies weren't doing well under it (having a captive customer is always profitable), or that sick poor people wouldn't enjoy getting free health care haha. I didn't mean to derail the thread with this either, merely stating that alot of people resented being forced to pay for it, and the out of control cost of the plans and the deductibles showed that many weren't buying in. That is the impression I get, I have not done my homework enough to have a fully developed opinion on the subject, won't try and debate it until I do. I do know that the cost for me is not feasible, especially with ERE.

I would also caution against looking to Europe, the UK, or Australia for inspiration when it comes to ideas for American policy. A large demographic of our country has a very different view of government and its place and purpose. Europeans seem more comfortable with nanny state antics, and being told how to live their lives. Over here even an occupation as innocuous as census taker is risky business :lol:

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... s-workers/
Last edited by Mikeallison on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mikeallison
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Mikeallison » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:05 pm

@Campitor

Well said, I still don't think mandatory voting is a good fit for the US though.

IlliniDave
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:00 am

plantingourpennies wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:35 pm

"Obamacare popularity and profitability reaches all time high" (March 2018)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapse ... f3e17adfab
I wonder if the surge in popularity (up to 52%) is linked to 1) the removal of the individual mandate and 2) the simple fact that Trump dislikes ACA.

Personally and selfishly, I'm glad to see it stabilize because I might be dependent on it soon, but I'm also glad the door is opened for other policy types to be available without incurring financial penalties. The elephant in the room is that requiring universal acceptance in the absence of an individual mandate is not the most obvious recipe for financial success. It's one of the myriad reasons I'm so dedicated to the idea of passing assets on to my descendants--future liabilities are enormous and I feel obliged to leave them the resources to pay some of the debt racked up by their predecessors when the bills come due.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:58 am

Riggerjack wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:29 am
I could see voting being done with taxes, and your vote counts in direct proportion to your tax bill. Allow people to buy more influence, by paying more tax. Add a minimal popular vote threshold to stop outright buying of elections.
...
And the rich will have a defense against the ravenous appetite of the masses. Just in general, it would be easier to curb some of our current abuses, but I'm sure it would be open to new abuses...
There should be more discussion about this idea. Seems like an interesting solution to the principal-agent problem in mob democracy. It would be interesting to see Koch types fighting to Increase their tax bill for a change. I could see this having a balancing effect on both income inequality as well as tax rates, since voters would be evaluating the price of their influence. Politicians might argue to increase tax rates on the biggest demographics in their constituency since these are the Real Americans.

Campitor
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Campitor » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:23 am

The top 10% pay almost 70% of all taxes. Having tax based voting would give the elite political power beyond what is healthy in a constitutional republic. I'm 100% opposed to tax weighted voting. Candidates would cater to the ultra rich and ignore everyone else. Being rich doesn't make a person more informed or unbiased. It would lead to the dissolution of the republic as only cities are catered to while the rest of the country (a.k.a., the breadbasket of America) is ignored. And the mega cities (NYC, Chicago, LA, etc) would would wield the greatest political power with their wealthiest residents wielding the greatest clout. And who here wants to give more power to the military industrial complex?

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:13 am

@Campitor
What about using effective tax rate as the measure?

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Riggerjack
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:28 am

First, I am always against compulsion. Not on moral grounds but efficiency grounds (nearly identical for me, but I am a bit different from norms). Making anything compulsory is efficient for the decision maker, and extremely inefficient for EVERYONE else. There are better (more efficient) incentives. So no, I wouldn't make voting compulsory, it would be self defeating to force people to participate.

As to worries about the rich having undue influence if votes were proportional to taxes, how is it different from today? The difference as I see it is to have a solid voter identification system, and moves the influence of money on politics from the back rooms into the open. The added benefit of people making governance decisions at the same time they are focused on the costs of those decisions is purely coincidental. :geek:

Plus, there's the precious irony of SJWs complaining the the upper middle class (aka the rich) are paying too much tax. Worth the change for that alone. :ugeek:

Jean
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Jean » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:46 am

I would take a field, gather everyone wanting to vote on it, naked, and the last opinion with supporters on the field would be voted for. I think it would address all the issues.

Augustus
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Augustus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:12 pm

re: OP: vote for what?

i moved back to the land of fruits and nuts, they actually implemented a system where the masses can make legislation and bypass the legislative branch. i imagine it's just a matter of time before someone puts a free unicorn measure on the ballot.

if you have a proper constitution, and the government is limited in the actions it can perform, and the voters are limited on what they can vote for, then there isn't much harm in voting, since people are mostly voting for logo designs at that point. of course, the chances of someone in power not reinterpreting the constitution, such as the right to bear arms is extremely low:
Image

one thing i'd like to bring back is ostracism, that was such an elegant solution to politics that the greeks made. every year someone gets exiled from politics for 20 years on pain of death. eventually, by process of elimination, we might get some decent leaders.

Mikeallison
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Mikeallison » Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:59 pm

Augustus wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:12 pm
re: OP: vote for what?
Their favorite flavor of ice cream of course, what else? ;)

Ostracism would be fine with me, let's make it default after the first term in office. Can we do a battle royale option too? Stick them on an island after and have them fight to the death? Winner can have a 2nd term.

Dream of Freedom
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Dream of Freedom » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:24 pm

Schwarzenegger would have been governator for a while.😀

Jean
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Jean » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:39 pm

I think democracy should be representative of who would win a civil war, so that we don't have to actually fight it.

chenda
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by chenda » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:40 pm

@mikeallison - Some universities formed their own parliamentary constituency, voted on by alumni who could also vote in their home constituency. This still exists in Ireland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit ... cy#Ireland

Campitor
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by Campitor » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:50 pm

@Rigger

I can see your side of the argument regarding tax weighted voting. I still think back-door illicit/immoral brokering would occur despite the change. The elite would vote for bills that grow their wealth despite the tax increase.

They would press for artificial motes around their business. They will dilute the lower class voting bloc by cutting their salary which forces them into a lower tax bracket.

And a possible unintended effect would be more wealthy people engaging in this behavior now that it's legal. What checks would you put into this tax weighted voting system to prevent abuse?

And on further contemplation I agree we shouldn't force people to vote; but not for your stated reasons. Not voting is a legitimate form of protest therefore I don't want it removed.

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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by jacob » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:46 pm

Tax-weighed voting would eventually converge on a system where laws are paid for and bought according to ROI. It's similar to the current indirect system of lobbying in which a company pays $10M for a lobbyist as long as it increases their profit by $10M+. Tax-weighed voting (with voluntary contributions for more influence) would make this system direct. You no longer have to pay a lobbyist to write the law for the politician to pass. You get to pass your law directly. What could possibly go wrong?

At least the current system allows for the fact that a corporation can lose its investment in the politicians they bought^H^H^H^Hcontributed to if those politicians annoy their constituents too much. This in turn creates some self-restraint/checks and balances.

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BRUTE
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by BRUTE » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:30 am

nobody should be allowed to vote.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by ThisDinosaur » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:20 am

I suggested Effective Tax Rate (accounting for Subsidies and Federal Benefits) as opposed to Dollar-Weighted Votes specifically to get around the plutocracy situation.

Most lobbying shenanigans are aimed at reducing one's own tax rate or getting subsidies and federal benefits. Meanwhile most leftist policy involves giving "me" stuff paid for by "you." So everyone votes selfishly. Which is fine, but it seems like the people doing the paying should have a greater say than the people doing the receiving.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Should everyone be allowed to vote?

Post by EdithKeeler » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:32 am

Which is fine, but it seems like the people doing the paying should have a greater say than the people doing the receiving.
We have that now.

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