Summit with Putin

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Riggerjack
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by Riggerjack »

I am not really interested in what he says progressives should do, but I am curious if his description of Trump and politics in general is consistent with what others think.

I think he got trump about as right as it is possible, from an outside view. I think he got the cognitive parts, where he breaks down the sales pitch hacking. And I think if he really understood all that, he would have stopped there.

But he didn't. And that's where all the bullshit comes in. Not because he is full of BS. Not because trump supporters are secretly smart, but because he CAN'T describe them accurately.

He would like to. And I'm sure he believes he has. I'm sure there are wonderful data to support everything he said. And still it's bullshit.


Because modeling the behavior of outgroup is Really F'ing Hard to do. It is very rarely pulled off at all, and trying to do it with your own model doubles down on bias.

I'm no fan of the Cheeto in Chief, voted Bernie, and I still saw the bias against trump supporters. It's not subtle. And it's typical of the academic treatment of that section of the population. None of them seems to be able to overcome their own bias enough to even come close to understanding the Trump supporters.

Me, too. But I can at least pay attention to where my models don't work.

If you build a scale with a less desirable and a more desirable range, everything in human nature will twist the results until your in group is at the desirable end, and your out group at the undesirable end. Thus he assigns childish, simple behavior to his out group.

Now there IS childish, simple behavior among Trump supporters. Of the specific type he describes. But that's all he can see in his outgroup. I see it too. But I also see much more. I doubt he ever will.

I had this problem when I was younger. I am agnostic atheist. The idea that someone needs to talk to their "invisible skyfather" to get through the day, screams out weakness and simplemindedness to me. For decades this stopped me from even understanding the lexicons of the faithful, in the ways they did. It stopped me from looking at all of the really high quality thinking that has gone on at the other end of that spectrum. I still don't have any kind of Christian belief, but I can appreciate what they are trying to do, and how they are going about it. It wouldn't work for me, but that's not a requirement for it to work for others.

I have the same problem with Kegan, or what little I have read. He assigns people to stages of complexity in their internal models. But each stage is more rare, and more complex, and more desirable. I would respect his work far more if he were to model what the less complex minds were doing. So rather than simple at one end, and complex at the other, he assigned development toward multiple directions of complexity. Something to help Kegan remove his own complexity bias. But that won't sell books.

Or, I could just be wrong.

Riggerjack
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by Riggerjack »

@ illinidave

If you read the lakeoff link, he gets into what progressives should be doing. It all sounds good, and would get my vote. Not that anyone should be trying to get my vote as a way to victory.

But it highlights how broken down the left is. If there's anyone on the left who actually believes in anything he espouses, they were shouted down years ago. There is no room on the left for compassion. It's just SJWs and apologists, all the way down.

I was hoping the displaced liberals were fixing things behind the scenes. I guess I still am.

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

daylen wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:42 am
Has anyone read George Lakoff's article "Understanding Trump"?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/georgelako ... ump-2/amp/

I am not really interested in what he says progressives should do, but I am curious if his description of Trump and politics in general is consistent with what others think.
It's a couple years old, I wonder if he would still write the same today. To me it came across as a dog whistle version of "republicans are the tyrannical oppressive male hierarchy and Trump appeals to their base, simplistic instincts. Plus some are religious."

Obama installed identity politics in forefront of the US landscape, hopefully not forever. Hillary ran on it and lost. Trump turned the tables on the identity politics by identifying the corrupt political hierarchy as the enemy. That's why he won. It's much easier to believe (doubly so now) that the US political elite are corrupted beyond the ability to function as a competent hierarchy than it is to believe the entirety of western capitalist civilization is built on a malevolent conspiracy of white male oppression. Much better to improve western capitalism than to overthrow it with socialism. With Trump it's more about what he's not than what he is. And what he is not is exactly what Clinton was--a lifelong member of the corrupt political elite class. And I believe Trump is viewed as someone with competence (perhaps mistakenly) for having been successful in multiple domains. Instinctively people want their hierarchies to be based on competence. In essence, he's made the political class the new white male, and they and their various allies don't like it. The nazi, *ist *ophobe stuff is massive obfuscation. And so far the more that bloc succumbs to anti-Trump hysteria, the more popular Trump gets. They should try something different.

Dinosaur, or whoever it was that pegged me as a Trump supporter, I've made it pretty clear I am not, and have not been one. Though I must admit if he continues to progress with trade (ref. the pending deal with EU and if he follows up with others), Korea, Iran, Russia, the economy, etc., I might entertain the notion of rethinking that, but it is unlikely. I know it's not "cool" but what I do support is the US and what I see from much of the media and the blue politicians is not something I consider good for the country. I don't have a ton of time left, but my kids and grandkids do, and I want them to live/grow up in a decent, peaceful place. To a lesser extent I also tend to stick up for conservatives because I know far too many of them to buy the popular caricatures inherent to the game of identity politics. The US has found it's way through difficulties before so I remain hopeful, something else that isn't "cool", and I describe what I see as accurately as I can. Trump is part of the landscape, but my identity is not invested in him.

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:27 pm

I was hoping the displaced liberals were fixing things behind the scenes. I guess I still am.
I still maintain hope too, but it feels futile unless I double down on my reclusive nature and just think by myself. I don't watch all the stuff that ffj does (I forget the name of the series of videos he's mentioned), but it seems like classical liberals are breaking from the left. I like the long form stuff on the intellectual dark web and there are a few in that crowd who have either bailed on the progressives or been ostracized by the left (e.g., Jordan Peterson and Dave Rubin).

The red team really has no cohesive identity so maybe one day they'll converge on the ideological ground of os the old center left/center right. The blue team seems to be charging further leftward, and it would not shock me to see them anoint Bernie in 2020.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Dave, I didn't intend to label you a trump supporter. But it does seem like you have put the pieces of the Trump-Russia puzzle together differently than I did. So, I'm curious about that. Especially since I mostly agree with your "purple" politics.

Re: the Left fracturing, its not just the left. I remember thinking that the Republican party was a disintegrating mess all throughout 2016. I remember having discussions with my (very conservative) coworkers about what would become of the GOP after Hilary's inevitable win. I think Trump's win has temporarily disguised a lot of the Right's identity crisis.

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:08 pm
Dave, I didn't intend to label you a trump supporter. But it does seem like you have put the pieces of the Trump-Russia puzzle together differently than I did. So, I'm curious about that. Especially since I mostly agree with your "purple" politics.
That's a pretty big puzzle! Ideally I like to find out what happened. First and in isolation. But the way it works with "news" these days is that a conclusion is offered with a selective fragment of what happened that purports to support the conclusion. Both sides are guilty of that. So it's taken a long time to assemble any reliable data. Even though it is much more exciting to believe it is so, I just can't make the leap to "POTUS is a Russian mole". I think the opposite is more likely occurring--that he's (re)asserting US strength back into the US-Russia dynamic.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Riggerjack wrote:I think he got trump about as right as it is possible, from an outside view. I think he got the cognitive parts, where he breaks down the sales pitch hacking. And I think if he really understood all that, he would have stopped there.

But he didn't. And that's where all the bullshit comes in. Not because he is full of BS. Not because trump supporters are secretly smart, but because he CAN'T describe them accurately.

He would like to. And I'm sure he believes he has. I'm sure there are wonderful data to support everything he said. And still it's bullshit.
I agree. I think Lakoff's take on cognitive framing is brilliant, but his attempt to assign frames to the current political schism is 1/3 obvious and 1/3 off-the-mark. His extension goes something like human consciousness and reasoning is inherently embodied (biological schemata), morality has to do with issues of physical well-being (cleanliness, conflict, access to resources, etc.), morality is learned within the context of varied frameworks of family, politics is an extension of morality, the particular family frameworks applicable to current political schism are....

So, Lakoff describes the two frameworks as "authoritative father" vs. "nurturing parents" and, OTOH, Peterson describes the "hero/leader" and the "devouring mother" and brags about smacking his own toddler children into obedient behavior. However, the reason I would very much like to see a debate between Lakoff and Peterson is not because I care about the resolution of these political differences, but because I am very interested in the core of radical agreement between these two intellectuals. In simplistic terms, this radical agreement is "humans are inherently not logical in their thinking." Whether you go to "metaphor" or "narrative" from there is a bit "tomato/tomato." I think the slice should be made towards Peterson's take that gender must matter, if one is to accept Lakoff's take that metaphor/meaning is dependent on biological structure, (IOW, one should at least give nod to family structure described as "nurturing mother and father" as opposed to "nurturing parents") but away from Peterson's take that you must accept the narrative of the culture into which you were born, even if that culture is currently "dominant" or judged by some yardstick "most competent." ;)

Circling back to political discussion, I would note that the family framework that Hilary Clinton actually frequently suggested was "it takes a village", and the family framework of the thoroughly-modern conservative Republican would be more like "(nuclear) family first" rather than "authoritative father." But, it is kind of interesting to note that depending on how you move the funhouse mirror frame, you might see either that a "village" is rather like a "commune" or an "authoritarian father figure" is rather like a "totalitarian leader", so association with Russia can be surmised from either perspective.

I would also note that obviously it is highly probable that I am agreeing with Riggerjack because we are both working from something like Green Libertarians framework. So, grain of salt.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by ThisDinosaur »

ffj wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:56 pm
I for one am sick of these articles that constantly attempt to diagnose the Trump voter. It's arrogant if nothing else and it comes from an attitude of pathology. "Why aren't the minions acting the way we want them too? What's wrong with them?"
But does that article get the diagnosis right? Sorry if I'm being arrogant. I have a fascination with how other people think when they don't think like me. You could read those articles as pathologizing trump voters, or you could read them as liberal coastal elites trying to figure out how they got so out of touch with half of humanity. I can totally understand why anyone would choose to vote for HRC or DJT. But actually fervently *liking* either one of them is a mystery to me. Or even implying that paying foreigners to hack an election is somehow beneath them.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:14 am
However, the reason I would very much like to see a debate between Lakoff and Peterson is not because I care about the resolution of these political differences, but because I am very interested in the core of radical agreement between these two intellectuals.
They both describe the problem of political differences in the same way. Like iDave said, party preferences are more like personality traits than doctrines. Liberal vs. Conservative is equivalent to Openness vs. Cautiousness. The correct trait is context-specific.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:14 am
But, it is kind of interesting to note that depending on how you move the funhouse mirror frame, you might see either that a "village" is rather like a "commune" or an "authoritarian father figure" is rather like a "totalitarian leader", so association with Russia can be surmised from either perspective.
I think you're overfitting this part. Russia supporting Trump is not about doctrine. Its about Secretary Clinton's mishandling of Ukraine. She forced Putin to use a military solution in Crimea. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

I found this interesting. It implies that males atop hierarchies might be a little more complex than a gratuitous caricature of men occupying high positions in hierarchies as thuggish abusive parents might imply. The chimps actually behave in ways that are analogous to the conservative human alphas I know (irrespective of gender). Very strong correlation between status and responsibility to the group. It can be confined to the nuclear family, but generally is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPsSKKL8N0s

Here's what Peterson actually said about Trump recently. He typically doesn't stuff people rigidly into the archetype characters from the social/cultural "narratives" he's studied and written/lectured about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7EaCVnw5n4

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Dude, I seriously considered posting that TED talk in the Jordan Peterson thread last week. He talks about this exact thing in one of his bible psych lectures:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dy4RVXmXE4

So, is comparing Trump to an alpha male Chimp more or less condescending than Lakoff's article?

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

ThisD, I don't know. I really wasn't intending it the link as a statement on Trump. Just as food for thought that everyday conservative family/social hierarchies may be somewhat more complex and less toxic than they apparently appear to some, and that they may be rooted more in nature than in corrupt, immoral, social constructs. The thing that I don't 100% resonate with in Lakoff's article was his characterization of non-elite relatively conservative people (by which mean those running from center of "classical liberal" rightward to the demarcation between decent people and nazis/fascists).

I would tend to agree with what Peterson said in the interview--Trump is sort of idiosyncratic/anomalous. It's interesting to cast him into a chimp framework. He does do some displaying, sometimes appears sympathetic/consoling, doesn't seem to be much for long-term coalition building with other powerful people, yet somehow maintains an amount of overall popularity despite, as JP puts it, being very disagreeable temperamentally. To maybe overextend a little, we see coalitions among the other powerful elements in the political hierarchy attempting to bring him down prematurely (before his term is up) ala the dethroning of a bully alpha in the chimp universe, but his support among those far down the political/social hierarchy was/is sufficient both to elect him and keep him in place for now. If the blue team wins the House in November, though, the coalition in the political hierarchy will unseat him.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

IlliniDave wrote: Just as food for thought that everyday conservative family/social hierarchies may be somewhat more complex and less toxic than they apparently appear to some, and that they may be rooted more in nature than in corrupt, immoral, social constructs.
I did think it was heart-warming to learn how the alpha male chimps are generous enough to share access to the females with their pals, but I don't quite grok what that has to do with everyday conservative human family hierarchy? :lol: Frans de Waal did mention that bonobo social structure is quite different, and it is a fact that primates as a group are quite varied in social structure. One very important biological factor that differentiates humans from chimpanzees is that human females do not go into blatant estrus. This species tendency towards hidden ovulation frequently results in a level of confusion among human males, not often experienced my chimpanzee males, sometimes leading to behavior referred to colloquially as "locker room talk." So, I do agree that the POTUS has, at the very least, exhibited an alpha-chimp like generosity in his willingness to offer his silver-backed advice in such context.

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:36 pm

Frans de Waal did mention that bonobo social structure is quite different, and it is a fact that primates as a group are quite varied in social structure.
Yes, that's why I was careful not to generalize about alpha male versus alpha female or matriarchal versus patriarchal. It's the top of a social hierarchy and the responsibilities that go with it that is relevant. Long term success requires healthy relationship building, acting in support of the welfare of the community, and empathy (in the case of chimps). It doesn't automatically fall to the biggest and the meanest or even the smartest.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave:

Agree, but that still leaves the in-group/out-group boundary dilemma. For instance, it could be argued that the primarily individualistic Libertarian perspective is not "natural", because humans are not like bears. However, it could also be argued that some individual humans are more like bears than other individual humans.

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:41 pm
Agree, but that still leaves the in-group/out-group boundary dilemma. For instance, it could be argued that the primarily individualistic Libertarian perspective is not "natural", because humans are not like bears. However, it could also be argued that some individual humans are more like bears than other individual humans.
Sure. Humans contain a lot of variation. As far as libertarian they vary too, but I think the perspective of free from government/wide scale societal control exists often with an explicit "me and the people I choose to associate with" attached. IOW I don't think libertarianism and social heirarchies are mutually exclusive (but Im not an expert on libertarian doctrine).

Chimps aren't a comprehensive model for human behavior, but I find the analogies one can draw interesting. They reinforce the idea that not everything about human behavior was developed via intellect. And that being true does not make us less human.

BRUTE
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by BRUTE »

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:01 pm
I don't think libertarianism and social heirarchies are mutually exclusive (but Im not an expert on libertarian doctrine).
being somewhat of an expert on libertarian doctrine, brute can confirm that there are various opinions about social hierarchies within libertarianism.

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Seppia
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by Seppia »

@dinosaur @ffj

I am very far from being a Trump supporter, but god does the typical "why are people voting trump and how can we fix this terrible mistake as they are clearly stupid and ignorant and weak" make me mad.

The left here in Europe has the same unbearable complex of superiority.
I'm sure it's not always true, but it sounds like they genuinely believe that anybody disagreeing with them is stupid, ignorant, or both, as otherwise they would inevitably agree with their world view.

Here in Italy we have had a similarly shocking outcome, with the very brash Northern League and the... uhm... no idea how to define them 5 Star movement taking power.

The left, facing voters who regularly say "I would have voted anybody but the left"*, looks for ways to "fix" the voters instead of just looking in the mirror to identify the obvious problem.

*in very similar fashion to many trump voters "anybody but Hillary"

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:04 am
being somewhat of an expert on libertarian doctrine, brute can confirm that there are various opinions about social hierarchies within libertarianism.
I would guess that social hierarchies that form in families are tough to eliminate, as would those that develop among neighbors and friends. Those things just seem to happen when people interact, voluntarily or subconsciously. For the facets of the ideology most opposed to any sort of heirarchy, what is the perceived benefit of a non-hierarchical system?

IlliniDave
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by IlliniDave »

Seppia, what in your opinion were the key issues that fueled the "populist" swing in Italy? I'd heard that left-leaning populists and right-leaning populists formed a coalition of sorts to overcome the "progressives" (I'm using quotes because I don't follow Italian politics so I'm using terms I know from US politics). Immigration was cited as a primary issue, but I can't be sure that the analysis I heard wasn't tailored to fit a narrow-scoped narrative. When I look for it I see signs of that beginning to happen in the US, though the fact that Trump is the nominal head of the right-leaning populists and obviously a controversial figure makes it easy for the wedge drivers of the left to reduce a continuum to two buckets: progressive and alt-right (the latter isn't really defined satisfactorily and seems mostly to be a euphemism for Nazi).

7Wannabe5
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Re: Summit with Putin

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

IlliniDave wrote:Chimps aren't a comprehensive model for human behavior, but I find the analogies one can draw interesting. They reinforce the idea that not everything about human behavior was developed via intellect. And that being true does not make us less human.
Yeah. Too bad we killed off the Neanderthals and the Denisovans after having sex with some of their females, or we could have even better living proof or our inherent tendencies towards empathy, generosity and peaceful coalition building.

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