Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Mister Imperceptible
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Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I just wanted to thank Jacob for this forum and for adherence to the classical understanding of free speech and dialogue.

I had another reminder today of mob mentality and the erosion of this right. Those attacking this right like to say “freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences of speech” which is to me a perverse subterfuge against the First Amendment.

I think it is possible to disagree, and remain respectful and thoughtful. Without being able to tolerate disagreements, there is no critical thought. It seems to me that either the majority or an increasingly influential vocal minority does not even want to agree to disagree. They are opposed to disagreement, opposed to free speech, and opposed to critical thought. That this trend is increasing should be cause for alarm.

I have very few social outlets left. Unpopular opinions should be grounds for unpopularity- not social isolation and unemployment. I appreciate Jacob and the forumites for their commitment to serious and critical dialogue.

Jason
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Jason »

I will go on record as saying that I never thought any of my posts that were deleted were not in some way deserving of it.

Jean
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Jean »

I agree, thank you jacob!

jacob
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by jacob »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am
I think it is possible to disagree, and remain respectful and thoughtful.
If I may rephrase: "Only insofar we remain respectful and thoughtful does it become possible to disagree". Or agree or teach or learn something from/with each other.

If we can't do both of those two things then it devolves into the shitshow that's all too common these days. This is why the forum moderation policy is not aimed at optimizing free speech but rather on minimizing disrespect (within the Overton window of a largely global population of almost all ages, genders, socioeconomics, and beliefs) and thoughtlessness (within the Overton window of a mature person living within objective reality, so no "alternative facts" or obvious "pants on fire" crap).

This is why memes, trolling, doxing, ... and other modern social media wonders are Verboten here in contrast with the less restrictive generic free speech laws.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I do agree with your rephrasing. I apologize to anyone here who feel I have trolled them at some point, particularly those with whom I have political disagreements. I like being satirical because I think it is effective at unveiling hypocrisy, and perhaps also the laughter for me is a coping mechanism. If I go too far, let me know. I try to self-moderate, but I am not always successful.

Even if I am outspoken, I aim not to be dogmatic. If ever I am hyperbolic, I hope the forum does not perceive me to think I am entitled to my own facts. Every idea has its hour of ridicule.

Jean
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Jean »

@mister imperceptible
What is annoying, is that sometimes, you seem to assume disagreement, when this is obviously just a vocabulaty issue.You seem to have developped some sort of paranoia due to being surrounded by people who don´t accept to disagree.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

@Jean

There may be some truth to that. It would be hard to divulge more details without doxing myself. I appreciate your contributions to the forum.

BRUTE
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by BRUTE »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am
I think it is possible to disagree, and remain respectful and thoughtful.
brute and Mister Imperceptible will have to agree to disagree on this one :D

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

BRUTE wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:55 pm
:D :twisted:

BRUTE
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by BRUTE »

<uncalled for personal attack>

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

<ad hominem retort>

prognastat
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by prognastat »

I know I am very appreciative of this myself.

I actually have the honour of being banned from the MMM forums for being a "nazi apologist".

This was because one of the mods made a blatantly extreme left post about Charlottesville attacking the right wing in general and excusing antifa while saying that disagreement/opposing opinions on this were not going to be allowed. I called him out saying that though I might disagree with the people that were in the right wing/alt right protest(which isn't necessarily representative of the right wing as a whole) some of which were dispicable, but that this doesn't excuse the blatant starting of violence by antifa on numerous occasions as our democracy works because we allow the state to wield violence, not individuals/groups(except for in pure self defence from an immediate physical threat). I also mentioned how I did not agree with using the powers granted as a mod to push a political view on the forum and thought the post was overstepping some bounds(this wasn't the first time this mod has used his powers for political arguments).

I was banned almost immediately. I would be more understanding if it were that any political discussion wasn't welcome on the MMM forums, but it is quite clear that right wing politics aren't welcome at all and though I'm actually left wing I'm not a fan of discriminating on political grounds.

So I'm very appreciative that as long as you are being polite and respectful discussion even on more contentious topics is allowed here.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Kriegsspiel »

BRUTE wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:09 am
<uncalled for personal attack>
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:11 am
<ad hominem retort>
Hah, you two! ;)

[no homonum]

BRUTE
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by BRUTE »

prognastat wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:55 am
I actually have the honour of being banned from the MMM forums for being a "nazi apologist".
brute was banned from MMM for arguing against charity.

free speech can be hard to value until those in power use their power.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

@prognastat
But clearly you have no empathy! ;)

@brute
Maybe instead of charity we can all give a tithe to Elon Musk so he can save mankind.

plantingourpennies
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by plantingourpennies »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am
I just wanted to thank Jacob for this forum and for adherence to the classical understanding of free speech and dialogue.

I had another reminder today of mob mentality and the erosion of this right. Those attacking this right like to say “freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences of speech” which is to me a perverse subterfuge against the First Amendment.
This is a private forum-Jacob's choices in allowing or banning certain types of speech have nothing to do with your first amendment right.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am

Those attacking this right like to say “freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences of speech” which is to me a perverse subterfuge against the First Amendment.

I have very few social outlets left. Unpopular opinions should be grounds for unpopularity- not social isolation and unemployment. I appreciate Jacob and the forumites for their commitment to serious and critical dialogue.
Isolation and unemployment can be pretty strong social signals that you have some very bad opinions-i.e. ones that are harmful to yourself or others in the group.

prognastat
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by prognastat »

The MMM forum definitely was quite left leaning for as long as I was there(probably because MMM himself posts a lot of environment and climate change etc), but it really went off the deep end around the election.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

@plantingourpennies

I’ve received similar comments from the people who I grew up with who were supposed to be my closest friends. In instances where I felt a creeping dominance and permittance of only one opinion, and was silenced and isolated, the response from these so-called friends was “not to insist on my opinion, and conform to the group.” I aim not in be dogmatic in my opinion, but need to be confronted with data if I am to change it- not a bullying majority. If carried to its ultimate conclusion, such a philosophy results in no philosophy at all, just a hive mind. That way leads decay and sorrow.

Scene from ‘An Enemy of the People’
By Henrik Ibsen (1828–1906)


https://www.bartleby.com/380/prose/911.html

prognastat
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by prognastat »

plantingourpennies wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:13 pm
This is a private forum-Jacob's choices in allowing or banning certain types of speech have nothing to do with your first amendment right.

...

Isolation and unemployment can be pretty strong social signals that you have some very bad opinions-i.e. ones that are harmful to yourself or others in the group.
Free speech is a concept beyond the First Amendment though. The First Amendment is a very limited view on free speech as it only regards speech in relation to the government. There is an overarching concept of free speech though

As for isolation, to an extent being vocal about FIRE/ERE can be somewhat isolating I wouldn't say it isn't worth the pursuit though.

Mikeallison
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Re: Free Speech: Thank You Jacob

Post by Mikeallison »

I'm part of the "banned from MMM" club too, but I'm ok with that. I don't think it is healthy, but hey it's his blog. I think that the first amendment is there to protect you from the state, not consequences in the private world. If you take a knee at work and stop doing your job claiming you are practicing "free speech" it is totally ok for your employer to fire your ass.

I do think we need to work on the problem of big tech companies, who basically hold monopolies, stifling dissent, and alternative viewpoints. I'm typically a small gov kinda guy, but I think the big boys need to be regulated like utlities, and forced to just provide the service, not vet content.

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