Consciousness Survey

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
BRUTE
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by BRUTE »

daylen wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:45 pm
Qualia is an approximation, because language is an approximation.
at the same time, language allows constructing impossible contradictions that are not obviously impossible just by knowing the words, yet are impossible in the real world, like the chicken/egg problem. brute thinks that qualia is such a word.

maybe it is appropriate to talk about the definition of "to exist". it's probably a hairy one. brute is willing to admit that reality probably exists, if by definition. things exist in reality.

but concepts invented by humans exist only to the degree that humans believe in them, they are literally made up. some of them describe reality well to a degree. none of them do so fully.

thus, when brute doesn't believe in qualia, he doesn't refute that the word exists, or that humans talk about it, or that daylen thinks he experiences qualiae (?). brute is hinting that this might be one of those cases where it's easy to say the word and think it describes something real, but doesn't actually describe anything meaningful.

and brute says this not being the biggest fan of reality to begin with.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

That is what I expected you to say.

You could say that about anything, then nothing would mean anything and anything would mean nothing.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by ThisDinosaur »

"Qualia don't exist" seems like a dispute about definitions. Which is what I tried to sidestep when I said ignore "consciousness" and focus on "qualia." I'm trying to make the question smaller and about "subjective experience." Because there are lots of satisfying explanations about how brains can turn sensory inputs into behavior, but there are no satisfying explanations for *what is* subjective experience.

Or even (totally separate question?) Why its necessary for subjectivity to exist?
One can write a computer program that takes in data and spits out "behaviors" without modeling that the computer experiences subjectivity. By extension, there is no reason humans need subjectivity to do any of the things we do. But we have it.

Or at least I do. All You Zombies could just be in my head.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

The more I think about "qualia", the more I come to believe that it is the most and least interesting concept. Simultaneously foundational and useless. I am just going to call it the paradox of existence from now on.

BRUTE
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by BRUTE »

daylen wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:22 am
foundational and useless
this doesn't seem like a problem to daylen?

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

Just an imperfect attempt at explaining my thoughts, nothing more.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I don't understand the problem. Language is inherently embodied. Qualia are inherently embodied. The body is a complex living system composed of other complex living systems. Co-ordination of these systems requires and/or emerges as consciousness. Language emerges through evolutionary development of cognition of environment within social system.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

What problem? ;)

Not a topic where language is of much use.

Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

Phew, this thread is a trip, and I'm not qualified to keep up with a good deal of the back and forth, but I'll toss something out there.

My undeveloped theory:

The foundation of consciousness has its roots in suffering. If nothing else is real, suffering sure as hell is. Awareness of time is only there because suffering constantly reminds us that we are mortal, and for us, the experience of time inevitably ends.

In solitary creatures the function of pain is probably just error correcting, but in social creatures? More going on there, specifically the pain of loss. Tight knit groups, dependent on cooperation for survival, yet also capable of acting independently. There is your setup.

Somewhere along the line we made the connection between our own suffering, and other humans. That is a weird epiphany because you simultaneously recognize that this fellow being suffers as you do, but that very recognition separates you. "As you do". The internal universe and the external split at that point. You've moved beyond being a cog in a super organism into something else, a world unto yourself.

Im sure there is more to it, and this was just off the cuff "stream of consciousness" (haha) stuff but the idea intrigues me. It's been bouncing around my head since my SO made me watch WestWorld season one.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@daylen:

Well, this thread/topic did give me something of mutual interest to discuss with my DS29 over lunch yesterday, so there's that...

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

At this point it would probably be worthwhile to expand the definition to Jacob's suggestion of many conscious processes.

Time and systems exist now.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

Mikeallison wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:25 pm
The internal universe and the external split at that point. You've moved beyond being a cog in a super organism into something else, a world unto yourself.
Then some realize it was just an arbituary construction in the first place and let it exist only when convenient.

Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

and let it exist only when convenient.

If it were that easy, people wouldn't be so keen to drown it out with drugs. Awareness is pain, it takes a brave soul to lead an examined life, and not shy away from the fact that one day you will be dust, along with all you ever cared about.

If you try and forget, pain will remind you.
Last edited by Mikeallison on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

I was talking about boundaries.

We draw boundaries to label and talk about the parts of a whole. The "internal" and "external" world are indistinguishable.

Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

@ daylen

Sure they are, the external world is the one that carries on, the internal one is the one that dies.

You could call it illusion, except for suffering, suffering makes it very real.

I was raised by my aunt and uncle, I was with both at the end, and watched them die. Reality becomes very vivid in that moment, the pain is concrete. I never stop questioning the nature of things, it's a bit of a curse, but at the moment of their deaths, I confronted something that I couldn't argue with. It wouldn't budge no matter how I changed my perspective, there it was. We die, and if we die then we must have lived as something separate, otherwise the concept of death would be an absurd one.
Last edited by Mikeallison on Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

I'm not so sure.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

I am not saying it is an illusion. I am just saying that any line you draw will have edge cases that undermine the meaning.

Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

@daylen

I don't possess the clinical jargon to keep up with alot of what you guys are talking about...are you suggesting a more Taoist/Zen approach? The intellect, by endless bifurcation, obscures the "truth"? Like every dichotomy is a false one dreamed up by the intellect, and in reality there is only one harmonious whole?

In otherwords, as soon as you start to discern between this and that, you begin to fool yourself?

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

Mikeallison wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:05 pm
In otherwords, as soon as you start to discern between this and that, you begin to fool yourself?
That sums it up nicely.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

This is not to say it isn't useful. We differentiate all the time.

I see boundaries as navigation tools; a means to an end. Otherwise, the boundaries become the objective and eventually your reality.

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