Consciousness Survey

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

@daylen

I see alot of appeal to that outlook, which is why I think the pain and suffering idea resonates with me.

Suffering isn't an intellectual exercise.

Agreed on the usefulness of "boundaries". They are helpful so long as they don't become axiomatic.

I've found that many intellectuals believe they can bring order to the world, or even society, in the same way they can order their minds. It never seems to end well.

BRUTE
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by BRUTE »

daylen wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:37 am
Just an imperfect attempt at explaining my thoughts, nothing more.
there's "imperfect attempt at explaining", and then there's "axiomatic idea that makes useful conclusions impossible". brute thinks qualiae are of the latter nature.

brute will attempt to make an analogy.

brute read about 10-20 books on Austrian economics. then, brute attempted to read Marx' "Capital". on page 17 or so, brute discovered a fundamental error in Marx' thinking that invalidated his entire theory. Marx simply wasn't up to date on the economic theory of his time, as these things had long been explained better.

Marx uses a fixed (labor) theory of value - a given item or service has an inherent value x. when humans trade the item, the receiver gains x, while the seller receives the price y. in pretty much all trades, x is unequal to y, and therefore, someone is getting shafted in any trade.

the subjective theory of value says that value is not inherent in items or services, but in the eye of the beholder - a thirsty human in the desert might value more than diamonds, whereas humans who have quenched their thirst might prefer to keep the diamonds.

this simple misunderstanding or axiomatic quirk made it impossible for Marx to reach the correct conclusions about reality. it leads to lots of paradoxes (water/diamond paradox), requires lots of ad-hoc making up of things that the theory can't explain, and inevitably leads to the solution of class warfare.

brute thinks that qualia is an idea like this. it's a bad idea in the sense that it is anti-useful. it has negative utility in trying to understand consciousness, like the idea of the aether had negative utility in understanding physics.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Right off the top of my head, I can think of umpteen ways in which the notion of qualia could be made useful, or even profitable. For instance, in determining whether or not the expense of shaping dog treats into semblance of bacon strips is worthwhile vs. reducing smell related to alfalfa content.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

I understand brutes point, but it just looks like another ad hoc rationalization to me.

BRUTE
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by BRUTE »

aka philosophy

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Jean
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Jean »

Funny how brute and i stoped reading marx at the same point.

BRUTE
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by BRUTE »

to go back to the OP:
daylen wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:34 am
1. Is panpsychism true? Is every system conscious to some degree?
no
daylen wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:34 am
2. Is the degree of consciousness related to integrated information theory?
what
daylen wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:34 am
3. Is consciousness the mechanism that collapses the wave function?
lol what
daylen wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:34 am
4. Is consciousness just an illusion, byproduct, or mistake?
clearly

7Wannabe5
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

BRUTE wrote:clearly
Disagree.
Cognition, as understood in the Santiago theory, is associated with all levels of life and is thus a much broader phenomenon than consciousness. Consciousness- that is, conscious, lived experience- unfolds at certain levels of cognitive complexity that require a brain and a higher nervous system. In other words, consciousness is a special kind of cognitive process that emerges when cognition reaches a certain level of complexity.- "The Systems View of Life- Capra
I have to get ready to go wedding dress shopping with my DD27, so I can't type at greater length, but pretty much it comes down to the fact that, IMO, it is pretty useless to speculate very far on this topic theseadays without pretty good grasp on math associated with nonlinear dynamics.

Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

The bicameralism thing is interesting.

I think religion (especially Christianity) is mostly humanity subconsciously working out how it relates to itself as a super organism. Maybe the path to consciousness on a species level, is the same journey we took to finding it on an individual level?

We tell ourselves stories to make sense of the world, at first the narrator existed in the subconscious as a god, an external authority, then somewhere along the line the transition to internal monologue occurs and we begin to narrate our own stories. Of course when you narrate your own story, you are the one responsible for the meaning and your actions. Heaven and Hell become the direct result of human action, not places created by the divine.

Nietzsche with the "God is dead", and all that, but maybe he is not really dead, quite the opposite. He was slumbering in the collective subconscious, and now he is beginning to awaken, like we did on an individual level.

Framed in this light, you could almost say that the whole right vs left, individual vs community bullshit going on since Nietzsche pronounced the death of god, is the old consciousness of the individual struggling with the emerging consciousness of the species.

And before you ask, no, I haven't smoked the devil's lettuce today.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I would not frame the the right/left political dichotomy as individual vs community. A Christian on the right or a Socialist on the left are both honoring thy father. One sees God as the Father, the other, the State. Two sides of the same coin.

I know not of this emerging consciousness of the species you speak of. Sounds ghastly.

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fiby41
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by fiby41 »

The idea of God provides a shared frame of reference. For two parties (persons, tribes, countries) who don't know each other, it is easier to forge commerce and trade relations, martial alliances and family ties,... if they worship the same Diety. Having a common frame of reference creates trust. That's why in the Sumerian tablets Gods in which both parties believe are invoked to bear witness to the transaction, who owes whom how much, when will the seller procure the goods and return and for how much the buyer will purchase them.

Mikeallison
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mikeallison »

fiby41 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 am
That's why in the Sumerian tablets Gods in which both parties believe are invoked to bear witness to the transaction, who owes whom how much, when will the seller procure the goods and return and for how much the buyer will purchase them.
For sure, also why we swear on the bible...

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

@daylen

It does not look like this thread went the way you wanted it to.

I may be so brief as to be overly general, but I think your mode of philosophizing tends toward the “Analytical” whereas many of the forumites that have chimed in lean toward a mode that is “Continental” (myself included). Which makes sense- if one’s understanding of economics is Austrian (dominant on the forum) and is informed by praxeology, it naturally follows that one will be skeptical of a mode of philosophizing that tends toward ahistoricism and a priori knowledge. For many of us, the analyzing subject is inseparable from the object.

Even though I am one such a person inclined to disagree you, I highly encourage you follow your natural inclinations and ensure the forum remains diversified in thought. Even though Jason and brute feel the need to pick on you. :twisted:

BRUTE
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by BRUTE »

<defensive overreaction>

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

<unasked for verbose manifesto>

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

fiby41 wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:47 am
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BCE

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

No big deal.

I actually have a lot of respect for continential philosophy. I do not identify with any single school, since I think that they should be used in different context.

In this context, I just happened to lack a historical background, so I resorted to analytic techniques to clarify language.

batbatmanne
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by batbatmanne »

1) Depends on how you define "consciousness" and whether it is considered discrete or continuous. As a Schopenhauerian, I would say that every system in the phenomenal world is an objectification of the underlying metaphysical reality: will. However, I wouldn't define consciousness as equivalent to will, so the answer would be no.

2) No. I was only made aware of IIT by this thread. However, a quick look has revealed that it is (apparently) a non-functionalist theory of consciousness, and so it is therefore vulnerable to the "dancing qualia" argument. I therefore don't think that it can be said to appropriately measure degrees of "consciousness."

See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4574706/
http://consc.net/papers/qualia.html

3) No. I endorse a Bohmian interpretation of QM, so I believe there are no wave-function collapse events that need to be explained.

4) I wouldn't call it any of those things. I think that calling it a "product" is more apt than anything. It's just a word that we use to identify functional mental states that are relevantly similar to our own. What constitutes relevance depends on the context. For example, we often contrast being conscious with being asleep. In an ethical context, we are often interested in the resemblance of the states of others' minds with the states of our own. Since we value our mental states, we also value similar states in others when we are compassionately disposed.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

Here is some constructive criticism on Integrated Information Theory and the Bicameral Mind.

This is a theoretical computer scientist take on IIT. He proposes that no theory can answer the hard problem of consciousness unless you believe there is no problem to begin with. He goes on to say that IIT is a candidate theory for the "Pretty-Hard Problem of Consciousness"; he mentioned in a video that computer scientists are bad at creating new terminology.. how ironic.

https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1799

This paper looks at two major shortcomings of the Bicameral Mind using the tools of physiology and philology.

https://www.functionalneurology.com/mat ... bicamiral/
Last edited by daylen on Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Consciousness Survey

Post by daylen »

As for quantum mechanics, the wave equation is just a black box, and any interpretation that paints a consistent story with it is viable. Some elements of the measurement system should not be represented in the equation describing the measured system. The system required to confirm the wave equation requires an extra element (observing system) to be considered when analyzing measurement error, but this is a different level of analysis.

That being said.. many worlds is clearly best.

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