Trump - Clown Genius

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:40 pm

Hopefully, that was peak crazy with that shooting. All the talk gets people riled up and, unfortunately, the nut cases hear the venom too.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:51 pm

@Chad - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucs ... #Political Deja vu?

D will say it's the guns. R will say it's polarization.---All in accordance with the typical value-system (see Haidt) of how people attribute cause to either the individual or society.

Of course it [a mass shooting] requires the exact combination of both. This point will likely be ignored given that it requires people to question their own deeply held values. Therefore, the stalemate will continue.

In an ironic (is that the right word?), the SHARE Act (to deregulate the ownership of silencers) was up a debate hearing on the same morning as the shooting. Duncan, who is the congressman who believed he talked to the shooter is the main sponsor of the act which included this:

http://www.guns.com/2017/06/13/hearing- ... this-week/ (from the day before the shooting)
Other additions Duncan has combined into the draft of the new SHARE Act are the elimination of the ATF’s authority to reclassify popular rifle ammunition as “armor piercing,” rolling back restrictions on the importation of certain ammunition from overseas, limiting how regulators classify some shotguns, shells and rifles as “destructive devices” under the NFA, and broadening temporary interstate transfers of firearms without having to meet a sporting clause.
Wow, just wow! It's hard to make this up. It could have been so much worse.

The hearing was postponed.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:58 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:10 pm
jacob wrote:My point (in my response to brute) was that the way the voters' cognitive process that picks their politicians is apparently different from the process that picks their surgeons, pilots, actors, and everything else in life...
brute isn't sure voters use a better heuristic to determine their surgeons, pilots, or actors. has jacob really ever picked his pilot? brute hasn't. surgeons, brute would have no idea how to pick. actors? certainly no intentional deliberation involved.
Picking a pilot can really only (for the layperson) be approximated by picking your airline. This amalgamates with other factors like equipment maintenance. Would be pretty cool if it were possible to really drill-down your exact aircraft, pilot (not that important tbh), stewardess team, etc. Meh.

Picking a surgeon can be pretty important depending on the operation. I had a major operation when I was younger and my father basically mailed my medical record/reports to various surgeons across the country (so this was before the internet..) and started a dialogue with a handful of them, gathering opinions. Ultimately he picked one, we moved, and I got my surgery. In another instance I broke my collar bone. Instead of having it surgically fixed immediately by whoever, I decided to wait a few days for the holiday when I would be home where there is a surgical practice that most high-profile professional athletes in the US use.

Picking an actor seems like a common thing for laypersons. Without even trying it seems I have a proclivity for Paul Newman, Cillian Murphy, Tom Hardy, etc. And I tilt towards being the type of person that doesn't know actors.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:05 pm

@Tyler
I remember that. I guess I was implying since he has become president.

@Chad
Apparently this guy was quite the consumer of news peddling the anti-Trump message. This lack of balance has consequences and I think we have been seeing some pushback even before this shooting, which encourages me. A lot of people are fed up with the hysterics.

@Jacob
I say its the media. When you have non-stop coverage of how Trump is the next literal Hitler, why wouldn't someone take the bait and try to kill him? Or his minions?

Obviously, there are many issues at play here and no issue can be simplified to one simple element, but factors can be measured in degrees and amplitude, and if this guy was glued to sources that repeatedly reinforced the message that Trump is evil, than we can't ignore that because he had access to a firearm, or he was mentally unbalanced. All of these factors contributed to multiple people getting shot on a baseball field.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:14 pm

@brute/bryan - I think you missed my point ... or I didn't make it well.

When we pick some someone to pull out a tooth, we look to the elite of human tooth-pullers. These are called dentists and we identify them by how they have a DDS or a DMD after their name. I don't know for sure, but it could also be that "dentist" is a protected profession so that not everybody can call themselves a dentist. This way you won't have the local barber or beautician doing oral surgery. This is an example of elitism when it comes to one's teeth.

A pilot would require commercial pilot's license or some such. If you fly, you pick a company that uses such pilots; not a company that employs pilots who have 10 hours of experience in a Cessna or Flightsim-X.

When we pick movies ex ante (without knowing the actor), we're likely to pick something out of Hollywood or a professional film studio. Not a local high school production on youtube. This way we have a good chance of being right. Sure, Hollywood makes terrible movies from time to time, but amateur movies are generally terrible all the time. Put it another way ... most people would agree that you're more likely to find a good movie on Netflix than on Youtube.

This way is so obvious because picking the best humans is all automated by various procedures that just floats the most qualified people to the top.

Except, when it comes to picking politicians. The equivalent here would be in choosing who to extract your tooth, not based on whether they have a DDS or an established dental office even ... but whether you believe that "because they're good with a wrench and know how to fix cars" or "because they have a nice smile which was once used in a ad for gum" somehow translates into actual surgery skills or even the ability to tell who is a good surgeon and who is not.

Here the argument is then made that it's not the elect-auto-mechanic's job to do the actual surgery but merely to decide whether to operate and then hire the right surgeon. However, if the mechanic has nothing to go on in terms of experience or knowledge of oral surgery, how would they ever know who to hire in the first place or whether the tooth needs to be pulled? The mechanic wouldn't ... but a dental hygienist probably would have a somewhat informed opinion about both---sufficient knowledge.

This is why I'm pointing out that a functional representative democracy requires a minimum degree of education/sophistication/intelligence both in the electors and the electee. Otherwise, the system risks breaking down. There's thus an implied responsibility wrt participating in a democracy.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:17 pm

Ah, yes, much more interesting point.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:51 pm

jacob wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:14 pm

Except, when it comes to picking politicians.
I agree with your general premise except in principal we are picking leaders and politicking is only a part of the job. There isn't really a specific training/education/professional background for leaders. Politicians see themselves as leaders but the recent track record of that "profession" here in the US is abysmal (and you saw the field in both primaries, it's not like Trump prevailed over Abraham Lincoln or FDR), so we got one from the business world in the White House this time. What's the quip: insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result? ;)

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:03 pm

ffj wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:35 am
So any thoughts on the attempted assassination of a group of Republican Congressman? If this dude had been competent with a gun and the security detail hadn't been present this would have been much, much worse. To be honest, I'm surprised Trump hasn't been a target yet, but I'm guessing the opportunity hasn't presented itself quite so easily as a bunch of guys throwing a baseball around.
There's an irony in it. People who spent a lot of time alleging the very existence of Trump would embolden the KKK and Nazism to overrun the entire country don't seem to see the same sort of connection when an almost hate-driven media rails 24-7 against Trump and anyone associated with him and subsequently the anti-right movement grows increasingly violent. They sell it as a gun control issue. I can only imagine the narrative that would be out there if the guy was from Alabama and shot up a bunch of Democrats.

Hopefully the guy just had some issues and isn't the first in a series of people poised to go over the edge.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:30 pm

@dave
Since the shooter was fond of MSNBC and Maddow and company, I glanced at their web page a minute ago. Nothing on their possible culpability, and the only story I could find (barely on the front page) about the shooting was Trump's statement on the congressman's condition. Plenty about Russia though. Plenty about Trump. :roll:

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:57 am

Or, the hysteria is only a small part of this. It's not like there wasn't hysteria during Obama, it just wasn't covered as much by the big news agencies except Fox (definitely heavily covered by secondary news sites). I would assume we could probably go back and find statements on here suggesting this lack of coverage was disturbing. Now it's disturbing because of too much coverage? I'm not arguing either way, just pointing out incongruity.

I'm also not suggesting I'm above reproach on being incongruous with my statements. Especially, immediately after the election.

There are plenty of assassination threats, attempts, plans, etc. on every president and to a lesser extent on congress:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... rack_Obama

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threateni ... ted_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... _in_office

Or, the hysteria is the same on both sides: By no means is this the first one against a someone from congress or is it limited to one party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:33 am

ffj wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:30 pm
@dave
Since the shooter was fond of MSNBC and Maddow and company, I glanced at their web page a minute ago. Nothing on their possible culpability, and the only story I could find (barely on the front page) about the shooting was Trump's statement on the congressman's condition. Plenty about Russia though. Plenty about Trump. :roll:
Not a surprise. The leaks about the special prosecutor investigating DT for "obstruction of justice" arrived just in the nick of time to save them from having to do follow-up coverage on an awkward story. Funny how often that seems to happen. :)

I should clarify that I'm not blaming the media/celebrity wing of the Democratic party for this, just pointing out what I see as the irony. There were a lot of people who disliked BO, and there was an underbelly of expression out there I found clearly objectionable, but it was a different beast than what we're seeing now with the widespread actions (some downright vile) of public figures, celebrities, and persons affiliated with news media towards the current administration. To find lunatic hatred of BO you pretty much had to go looking for it. You'd have to go nearly off-grid to avoid the lunatic hatred of Trump.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:21 am

@Chad
I'm pointing out the scale and magnitude. Your incongruity argument is weak tea in lieu of the sheer volume of calls to violence against Trump or his supporters. It is flat out irresponsible not to take into account that this amped up atmosphere has repercussions.

@Dave
Spot on.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by enigmaT120 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:10 am

Ted Nugent thought it was pretty funny to (hopefully) joke about hanging Hillary and lynching Obama.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:37 pm

brute has changed his position on abortion, and has reached a compromise - against-choice and against-life. all humans MUST have abortions.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:37 am

uncle

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Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:41 pm

I consider genius a stretch.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:19 pm

In an ironic (is that the right word?), the SHARE Act (to deregulate the ownership of silencers) was up a debate hearing on the same morning as the shooting. Duncan, who is the congressman who believed he talked to the shooter is the main sponsor of the act which included this:

http://www.guns.com/2017/06/13/hearing- ... this-week/ (from the day before the shooting)

Other additions Duncan has combined into the draft of the new SHARE Act are the elimination of the ATF’s authority to reclassify popular rifle ammunition as “armor piercing,” rolling back restrictions on the importation of certain ammunition from overseas, limiting how regulators classify some shotguns, shells and rifles as “destructive devices” under the NFA, and broadening temporary interstate transfers of firearms without having to meet a sporting clause.

Wow, just wow! It's hard to make this up. It could have been so much worse.

The hearing was postponed.[/weapon

I know this sounds strange to a European, but the weapons they are talking about are crazy regulated, and the BATF has massively abused their power in this area. It works because these are in the hands of the most absolutely law abiding citizens we have. The last time a legally owned NFA weapon was used in a crime was a deputy who shot his wife, back in the 40's IIRC. BATF used abuse of NFA weapon regulation to kick off both Ruby ridge, and Waco, and under Obama, they relaxed the rules on silencers, because they were concerned about the whole mess being thrown out as unconstitutional. (Specifically, they gave chief law enforcement officers the ability to deny without reason anyone in their jurisdiction trying to get an NFA weapon. This was routinely happening in Urban areas.) This set of rules is what the hearing was about.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:14 pm

Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:41 pm
I consider genius a stretch.
Genius definition per Merriam Webster:

  1. exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability.
    "she was a teacher of genius"
    synonyms: brilliance, intelligence, intellect, ability, cleverness, brains, erudition, wisdom, fine mind; More

  2. a person who is exceptionally intelligent or creative, either generally or in some particular respect.
    "one of the great musical geniuses of the 20th century"
    synonyms: brilliant person, gifted person, mastermind, Einstein, intellectual, great intellect, brain, mind; More
    adjectiveinformal

  3. very clever or ingenious.
    "a genius marketing ploy"
I would say he fits into bullet #2: creative, either generally or in some particular respect. I didn't vote for the great bloviator but painting him out to be a clown or idiot only reinforces the narrative that he can be easily dismissed and is without skill - this is how he got elected. He's smart as in Tammany Hall smart. He's a business man who uses thug tactics and demagoguery - he's dangerous because he's underestimated. And you don't get ultra-rich by being stupid or avoiding coalitions. The entire Pussy-Grabbing monologue shows that he's manipulative and opportunistic. Trump POTUS 2.0 groundwork is being built by the Left. The only hope is to take him seriously or pray that Bill Clinton is grooming a Slick Willy that can match Trump blow for blow. And whoever he's up against better be clean or Trump will dirty him up good.
Last edited by Campitor on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:27 pm

IlliniDave wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:33 am
[To find lunatic hatred of BO you pretty much had to go looking for it. You'd have to go nearly off-grid to avoid the lunatic hatred of Trump.
Um, no, this is incorrect. The whole Tea Party movement was lunatic hatred of BO. The whole Birther Movement, championed by Donald Trump, was lunatic hatred of BO. It was in our face almost every day. Every single day.

DT would get off easy if he would stop watching TV and tweeting about it. I know more about what's on TV from DT's tweets than any other source. Because DT loves TV and loves the media, deep down. He does not exist in his own mind, but for the media. That's the irony of it.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by EdithKeeler » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:29 pm

To find lunatic hatred of BO you pretty much had to go looking for it. You'd have to go nearly off-grid to avoid the lunatic hatred of Trump.
Go looking for hatred of Obama? I guess you and I must hang with different people, but from where I sit, the hatred of Obama was common and ever-present; the guy couldn't do anything right, and he tried to run a low-key White House. Trump stirs up crap every single day, and while i think the media coverage of his tweets is overblown, I guess I'm glad for it because I know what's going on. The stuff against Obama was very often overtly racist and not based on anything he did or didn't do. Political cartoons about "watermelon flavored toothpaste," Obama as a pimp, cartoons involving lynchings, the perpetual allegations of his lack of citizenship, he's a Muslim, millions of comparisons of both he and his wife to monkeys or gorillas.... The list goes on. NONE of those things were about policy or about international relations or anything else--there were about HIM as a man, a BLACK man.

Sure, there was stuff directed at Obama about policy stuff--the Affordable Care Act, Benghazi, etc.

But little that he brought on himself because of his behavior. Trump brings the scrutiny upon himself because of how he acts and what he does. If he stayed of the twitter, he'd give his critics a little less fuel to work with. If he had more competent spokespeople (I think Sean Spicer is the best of them, and he's not good) instead of Sarah Sanders and Kellyanne Conway... you know, people who could give coherent, informed answers rather than the gibberish they spout half the time, well, Trump would look better.

I admit that I liked Obama, but didn't agree with everything he did and didn't do, and in my opinion Trump is... a terrible, terrible mistake. I think Trump deserves almost everything he's getting (though the Kathy Griffin thing went too far), but what worries me is what is happening behind the scenes. When all the cameras and microphones are pointed at the latest trainwreck, what dirty deal is going down in the back room? Sometimes it seems that all of this crazy has got to just be a big diversion for something really sinister. Are they all really that inept???

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Campitor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:38 pm

EdithKeeler wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:29 pm
When all the cameras and microphones are pointed at the latest trainwreck, what dirty deal is going down in the back room? Sometimes it seems that all of this crazy has got to just be a big diversion for something really sinister. Are they all really that inept???
Sun Tzu: For should the enemy strengthen his van, he will weaken his rear; should he strengthen his rear, he will weaken his van; should he strengthen his left, he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right, he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak.

Unfortunately Sun Tzu is widely read by every predatory business man. Everyone right now is playing Trump's game of Sun Tzu.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:07 pm

Dragline, I think the Tea Party and birther stuff were somewhat different in degree than seeing someone get fired from a major news network for holding up a mockup of the presidents severed head, or talk show hosts on a major cable channel making thinly veiled incest jokes involving his daughter or holster remarks about his mouth. Or public figures discussing in public/on air desires to blow up the White House or finish their dreams of beating the president with a putting iron on the golf course. That's the kind of stuff I was referring to that I don't recall occurring on an ongoing basis in the public figure discourse about BO. Stuff like Trump's taxes and the collusion with Russia stuff probably equate to the birther nonsense, and weren't the kind of things I was alluding to.

EdithKeeler, I live in the Southeast and hang with run-of-the mill people that span both sides of the political aisle and a number of social classes and education levels. But what I was talking about was the stuff I mentioned above that is out there on the TV networks from public figures. There are a lot of people around here who didn't like BO, but I can probably count on one finger the people I know who actually hated him (and that person is a childhood friend from Illinois I haven't seen in years and knowing him it probably was racial). It isn't really whether hatred exists but how/where it is proclaimed and by whom. The differentiation I was making was the difference between what private citizens might say to each other in private and what has been going on/broadcast in the news organizations, talk shows, etc.

You are right that DT did himself no favors with those he surrounded himself with. If he even had one good adviser surely that person would have taken his phone and closed his freaking twitter account! The Russia collusion and related disinformation campaigns have pretty much vaporized his political/economic agenda. So three more years of bizarro tweets and we'll get to try again.

Trust me, I'm not supporting or defending DT, but suppose I was being critical of the "political" discourse in the media and the public remarks of some public figures.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:42 am

I dunno. I was part of the tea party and most of the people I knew who were active in the movement weren't in it because they hated BO (the person, policies-yes). Once people like Sheriff Joe became the face of the movement (how does that stuff happen??), we moved on to the alt-right. Now alt-right means racist bigot to everyone (I will go to my death denying that about the base of that movement) so we've moved on again. The current group is calling itself the 'deep right' in an attempt to be more inclusive to christians (alt-right was definitely a little anti-religion/libertarian in that regard). We'll see if that loose coalition holds together. It probably depends on the next election and who is running. Some like Pence and hope he takes the reins. The more traditional alt-right likes Rand Paul.


I should explain that I'm disgusted with Trump because he isn't getting anything done. I agreed with a lot of his proposed policies, but he folded on some things and isn't appointing the people who can accomplish his agenda. He's wasting time and political clout. I have some tolerance for people's shortcomings if they are getting things done, but T is all BS with nothing to show for it. I'm ready for Pence.

That said, just because T is a jerk doesn't mean it's ok for everyone to act that way. His behavior is not a pass. While I agree his actions are setting the tone and he's instigating a lot of his own drama, that doesn't mean it's ok for people in the press or politics to take the bait. "He started it" isn't a defense in grade school and it shouldn't be in national politics or the media either. I don't think it's inconsistent for me to believe that T is out of line but so is everyone else most of the time. They are all accountable for their own actions.

It's the same with the MSM. Some are trying to keep their bias in check and not lower their standards. Compare the behavior of Anderson Cooper or Jake Tapper with others at their network. I think their bias still shows but they seem to know where the line in the sand is, like Wallace and Baier at Fox.

A few months ago, Paul Ryan told the press he wasn't going to comment on everything T said for four years. People with that approach might come out of this relatively unscathed. Cory Booker is a good example, who is taking a cautious approach and keeping his rhetoric dignified while staying true to his base. If you want to know who'll survive to 2020/2024, look to those politicians who haven't had to delete a tweet. ;)

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:02 am

@Edith
Where do you live and where did you see all of this stuff about Obama? I live in Kentucky which has its fair share of straight up racists and other than the birther stuff and the occasional references to him being sympathetic to Muslims and its possible origin, which were almost unilaterally dismissed and marginalized by the MSM, I don't recall ever seeing cartoons of him being lynched or portrayed as a monkey. I am truly curious because it always seemed to me the mainstream press went out of its way to be politically correct in regards to the Obamas. I can't imagine the Washington Post or Fox , or the like posting an image of Obama hanging from a tree. Can you even imagine them showing Obama smoking a cigarette?

Now I have read comments from articles and Youtube videos expressing some pretty racist stuff, but to be honest I don't know that I have ever not seen a comment section trolled at some point, so I can't judge our society from that source alone. But I have never seen such behavior displayed by mainstream outlets, and I am as blue collar as they come and I can only recall one person who was an avid birther advocate but he listened to that idiot Glenn Beck all of the time.

Is this what you were referring to: http://www.salon.com/2014/10/01/7_disgu ... artoons_2/
Today was the first time I have ever seen these and I had to actively look for them.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:28 am

When I worked at U. of Notre Dame, I began to watch their football games. While I still don't much about football and couldn't tell a shotgun formation from a triple option, I still like watching ND games, especially when they're winning. I've even been to a real game and I once got "the shirt".

For the record, I don't consider myself a fan of the team as much as I'm a fan of the game. I want a fair game just like the Fightin' Irish which are stand-up athletes who play the way I would if I actually knew anything about football. The Irish sometimes gets penalized, but I don't recall them ever breaking any rules or being unsportsmanlike. I asked other people (mostly ND fans but also some yokel from Northwestern) and they don't remember either.

The Irish play aggressively but very fair. In fact if it wasn't for some bad referee calls, like those frequent but accidental helmet-to-helmet tackles, I doubt the Irish would ever get any calls against them. The commentators where I watch it my local TV station (free) agree with this assessment. They seem like smart guys---they know way more about football than I do, so I like to listen to what they say.

I hate MSU. I can't really explain why. I just do. Hate'm hate'm hate'm. Everybody knows how MSU breaks the rules all the time. It's not just aggressive play. It's downright cheating. You can see the fouls on the re-runs and there's also youtube channel that keeps track of MSU penalties as a public service so everybody can know how terrible they are. The channel shows the worst examples and is completely unbiased. You can watch the typical MSU play style with your own eyes. They have hundreds of calls against them and they only get touchdowns when they cheat. I don't hate MSU fans but why they support a team like that is beyond me.

If it wasn't for MSU, Notre Dame would likely be in the Rose Bowl every year instead of the Toilet Bowl.

Once we went to watch a game against Alabama with some friends because it was only on cable. Most of the people there were Alabama fans and they hated Notre Dame. I didn't know why because until then I had never even heard of Alabama (the team). The host even had to tell them to tone it down because there were also some ND fans at the party. We were just there to watch the game. I don't understand why other people can't be decent. I also once watched an ND game against USC while we lived in California on TV. Those mainstream TV commentators were some of the most biased ever. Not like the ones I usually listen to in Indiana and Illinois.

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