Pros and cons of introversion

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thrifty++
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

OldPro wrote:I see some obvious misinterpreting of the Myers Briggs test on this forum. It focuses on the Intrapersonal, not the Interpersonal. It is a tool to help you understand YOUR personal preferences. It is not a tool for helping you deal with interpersonal relationships such as dating or getting along with co-workers. You may want to read here for a comparison to another well known system called Social Styles which will do a lot more to help you understand your own behaviour and that of others as well as how to interact in relationships of whatever kind.
http://www.tracomcorp.com/wp-content/up ... Briggs.pdf

Comments like, "I think extroverted people are also more subject to status anxiety.", are also clearly a misinterpretation of what MBTI can tell you.

If someone actually understands MBTI, then they should understand that it tells you ONLY about yourself, not about anyone else. When you start attributing things like 'status anxiety' to other people based on MBTI, you have moved outside of what it is a tool for doing, understanding YOURSELF. It you want to understand others, you need a different tool and especially if you want to understand the BEHAVIOUR of others, something MBTI doesn't measure at all.

MBTI relates to your preferences. Social Styles relates to your behaviour. They are not necessarily directly connected and in fact often aren't. Research says they are only 50% of the time.
I think it can be applied to other people not just yourself. That is the purpose of a classification to define something. Otherwise classifications such as introvert and extrovert are quite meaningless if you can't describe the general characteristics of them.

thrifty++
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

peerifloori wrote: I don't entirely agree. I've met a number of thrifty-living, adventurer, wandering traveler types who are very extroverted. For example a friend of mine who has traveled across the entire Eurasian continent, from East Russia to Europe, with no plans, a backpack on his back, relying solely on the friends he makes for lodging and travel plans.

Conversely, I know plenty of introverts who are very subject to "status anxiety". They're just quieter about it.
Yes I have met a couple of such extroverts but they don't seem to be the norm. Whenever I have been travelling I have noticed that the extroverts were the ones hanging with pack mentality getting drunk all the time, making a lot of noise, going out to bars all the time, looking for someone to have sex with,being concerned with how in fashion they seem and how popular they are, and focussing on the main touristy things to do at each location. I found that it was the introverts who were marching to the beat of their own drum and doing things like learning a language, exploring nature, visiting temples, getting involved in charitable activities, hiking, learning about spirituality and local customs, finding the best surfing spots, and just generally going off the beaten path.
Last edited by thrifty++ on Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OldPro
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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7Wannabe5 wrote:How do two introverts even meet and commence a relationship? The "rules" of dating seem to highly favor extroverted men.
An introvert can act like an extrovert whenever they choose to. That's what gets the shy guy to screw up the courage to walk across the high school gym and ask the girl to dance.

Tending more towards the I end of the scale than the E end, does not mean movement is impossible. Think of it more like where does something end up when it returns to a state of rest. Where is someone most comfortable, not where can a person only ever be on the scale.

Social Styles actually has a very good explanation of how that works under stress, that they call Backup Behaviour. Scroll to 4.3 on the following link. http://drayconsulting.com/pdf/versatili ... sample.pdf
What it doesn't show on that document but is covered if you take a Social Styles course, is that in fact the backup behaviour will escalate under increased tension through all 4 behaviour styles. That's why someone who if pressured might normally avoid conflict or just go along with the majority, can sometimes explode and become far more aggressive and assertive than you have ever seen them to be before.

So an Analytical (in SS parlance) would first avoid but if pushed might agree to go along but if still pushed might become autocratic and 'lay down the law' or 'blow a gasket'. Seen everyday in marriages if you think about it. :D

OldPro
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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thrifty++ wrote:
peerifloori wrote: I don't entirely agree. I've met a number of thrifty-living, adventurer, wandering traveler types who are very extroverted. For example a friend of mine who has traveled across the entire Eurasian continent, from East Russia to Europe, with no plans, a backpack on his back, relying solely on the friends he makes for lodging and travel plans.

Conversely, I know plenty of introverts who are very subject to "status anxiety". They're just quieter about it.
Yes I have met a couple of such extroverts but they don't seem to be the norm. Whenever I have been travelling I have noticed that the extroverts were the ones hanging with pack mentality getting drunk all the time, making a lot of noise, going out to bars all the time, looking for someone to have sex with, and focussing on the main touristy things to do at each location. I found that it was the introverts who were marching to the beat of their own drum and doing things like learning a language, exploring nature, visiting temples, getting involved in charitable activities, hiking, learning about spirituality and local customs, finding the best surfing spots, and just generally going off the beaten path.
Thrifty, that is absolute rubbish. There are plenty of introverted drunks and plenty of extroverts interested in culture, nature, etc. The only difference is as someone else said, extroverts show you while introverts do not.

thrifty++
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

OldPro wrote:
thrifty++ wrote:
peerifloori wrote: I don't entirely agree. I've met a number of thrifty-living, adventurer, wandering traveler types who are very extroverted. For example a friend of mine who has traveled across the entire Eurasian continent, from East Russia to Europe, with no plans, a backpack on his back, relying solely on the friends he makes for lodging and travel plans.

Conversely, I know plenty of introverts who are very subject to "status anxiety". They're just quieter about it.
Yes I have met a couple of such extroverts but they don't seem to be the norm. Whenever I have been travelling I have noticed that the extroverts were the ones hanging with pack mentality getting drunk all the time, making a lot of noise, going out to bars all the time, looking for someone to have sex with, and focussing on the main touristy things to do at each location. I found that it was the introverts who were marching to the beat of their own drum and doing things like learning a language, exploring nature, visiting temples, getting involved in charitable activities, hiking, learning about spirituality and local customs, finding the best surfing spots, and just generally going off the beaten path.
Thrifty, that is absolute rubbish. There are plenty of introverted drunks and plenty of extroverts interested in culture, nature, etc. The only difference is as someone else said, extroverts show you while introverts do not.
Dont tell me its rubbish. It has been my experience. We are talking about generalisations here. I think my generalisations are correct as I have seen them over and over again.

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Ego
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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I am not an introvert but I have to admit, that is my experience as well. The less-extroverted people are the ones who are doing the extreme adventuring. The person in the middle of nowhere climbing a new route, learning the cooking practices of pygmies or measuring the size of a glacier is usually somewhat quiet and self-reflective. That is, if you were to compare them with the average extrovert who, as you say, is generally surrounded by other travelers with drink in hand.

thrifty++
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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I made the mistake of going travelling with an extroverted friend once and will never do that again.
He wanted to constantly get smashed at the backpacking hostel with rent a crowd and didn't care what he was doing as long as it was with everyone in the pack and it ended up being constantly bars and hanging around at the hostel. Whereas I was constantly craving an exploration of things. He never wanted to do any of that stuff. So i got sucked into what the majority extroverts were doing. I started to get very worn out and stressed out and exhausted. I was also sick of the nonsense reality TV discussions about who wants to fuck who and how wasted so and so got last night and how hot so and so was and I am looking sexy tonight. I also found it very stressful to have so many drunk nights acquaintances around who I had to say hi to and make small talk while hungover the next day. I would have an occasional conversation with a more introverted person around the hostel who seemed to be on a more unique experience but it was hard to find and notice those people when distracted by my friend and sucked into the extrovert noise.

So I ended up parting ways with my friend and from that point my travel experience was so much more enriching. From that point that's when I climbed beautiful mountains, found stunning surf spots, explored temples, meditated, stayed with locals on couchsurfing and airbnb, went to wildlife parks, found spiritually focussed yoga ashrams, snorkeled around beautiful corals and tropical fish, as well as take lengthy walks on my own so that my eyes could digest all the foreign beauty without being distracted. Some of these things I did on my own and others with other people. But I started to meet many more introverts while having these experiences and my travel experience became so much more nourishing and rich from that point. From then on I have since travelled on my own and have enjoyed this so much better. It allows me to more easily dip in and out of the extrovert scene and focus more on introverted experiences. I would however travel with an introvert in the future, but not an extrovert.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego said: The less-extroverted people are the ones who are doing the extreme adventuring. The person in the middle of nowhere climbing a new route, learning the cooking practices of pygmies or measuring the size of a glacier is usually somewhat quiet and self-reflective. That is, if you were to compare them with the average extrovert who, as you say, is generally surrounded by other travelers with drink in hand.
Pygmies are people too ; ) I think you are confabulating conventionality and lack of curiosity with extroversion. I am only borderline extroverted myself and also a bit shy, but some of the best adventures I have had have been in the company of the sort of extreme extrovert who will try to make an instant friend of any stranger (as opposed to the drunken pack animal tourist-types you describe.) You can't really learn about another culture if you don't interact with the people, and that's what extroverts do well. Also, some introverts are terrible travel companions because they are like cats with a skin condition combined with the Prince who feels every pea under 50 layers of mattress. Like dragging a sodden, sullen, whining,endlessly critical and complaining albatross around with you.

thrifty++
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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7Wannabe5 wrote: Also, some introverts are terrible travel companions because they are like cats with a skin condition combined with the Prince who feels every pea under 50 layers of mattress. Like dragging a sodden, sullen, whining,endlessly critical and complaining albatross around with you.
hahaha yes this is quite true. Reminds me of probably the worst kind of introvert traveller. An old flatmate of mine. He was only working remotely about 8 hours a week and the rest of the time he had boundless time and money to explore. I kid you not he did absolutely nothing the whole time. Barely left the apartment to grab something to eat. Imagine his holiday photos - this is a picture of the wall, this is my computer screen. WOW AMAZING! I remember he was scared when I took him out once because a friend of mine was smoking 420 and was amazed at eating Indian food for the first time. It was such a huge experience for him. He was also allergic to so many things and complained that peas would get stuck in the back of his throat so he couldn't eat them and had to avoid them all the time. I ended up asking him to leave, as with my hefty privacy requirements, it was doing my head in having someone here 24/7. I did wonder if he had agoraphobia.
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Ego
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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7Wannabe5 wrote: Pygmies are people too ; )
Barely. I found them to be drunk, evil, panga-wielding little buggers who block roads and demand tolls. And they are not much shorter than Mrs. Ego, a fact that really pissed her off. Damn if they aren't extroverts though. :|

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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Ego wrote:I am not an introvert but I have to admit, that is my experience as well. The less-extroverted people are the ones who are doing the extreme adventuring. The person in the middle of nowhere climbing a new route, learning the cooking practices of pygmies or measuring the size of a glacier is usually somewhat quiet and self-reflective. That is, if you were to compare them with the average extrovert who, as you say, is generally surrounded by other travelers with drink in hand.
akratic's tales from the AT seem to confirm this observation

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by henrik »

Some of what the E-s like to do (talking to large audiences, voluntarily going to clubs, costume parties) is extreme adventuring to me. Whenever I'm forced to do one of those things, that's a useful attitude to take, it's just an adventure:)

thrifty++
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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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henrik wrote:Some of what the E-s like to do (talking to large audiences, voluntarily going to clubs, costume parties) is extreme adventuring to me. Whenever I'm forced to do one of those things, that's a useful attitude to take, it's just an adventure:)
lol. I guess that's one way of looking at it. :)

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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OldPro said: So an Analytical (in SS parlance) would first avoid but if pushed might agree to go along but if still pushed might become autocratic and 'lay down the law' or 'blow a gasket'. Seen everyday in marriages if you think about it. :D
lol- Well, certainly in mine. In SS parlance (interesting model), I am an Expressive on the cusp of Amiable. My preferred emotional state is "anticipation." I like to feel like a kid on Christmas morning, waiting for the clock to hit the time when I am allowed to go see what Santa brought me, and I consider myself quite lucky because I often wake up feeling that way, and when I don't, because reasonably adult and self-aware, I do know how to be my own Santa. So, I will acquiesce and go along with the driving plans of some autocrat for as long as I can remain curious and optimistic about what might happen, but if/when an autocrat interferes or tries to squash my own plans for which I have built up anticipation, well, then you better watch out!!! I really do not like being disappointed, and I will do what I want to do, and I will say what I want to say, because I am a free American, grown-up person and you can't stop me!!!If/when I follow the "rules of dating", I always attract very driven, autocratic types, so this is a bit of a pattern for me. If/when I don't follow "the rules of dating", I usually end up trying to cheer/haul some depressive musician or alcoholic writer out/away from the dark abyss until I thoroughly deplete my own supply of optimism, so that is my other pattern. Therefore, I have decided to defy and/or transcend the "rules of dating" by being polyamorous and stick mostly with my own plans. Currently, I am living in anticipation of the brilliant daffodil display I have planned for the spring and/or my next cup of coffee.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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I don't think introverts are more adventurous than extroverts, it's more the sorts of adventures they are inclined to pursue. And like anything with humans you can always find exceptions to generalizations. The pronounced extroverts I know with a big dose of wanderlust like going around to new places and mingling with the people, experience the nightlife in the cities, local events, and whatnot. They are also often very happy to take a day trip/side excursion to visit a remote and lovely spot along the way, but only in small doses. And the pronounced introverts are much more inclined to take the solo/small party backpacking adventure in the remote overseas national park, or if they are older and/or less athletic/action oriented, visit the "countryside" somewhere and explore the smaller towns/villages. They may enjoy a night or two in a bigger city before and after their core adventure, but that's not the focus.

I don't know this, but I'd guess people are spread across the I/E spectrum in something close to a normal distribution, meaning a large fraction of the population are not strongly I or E and can probably function somewhat as either to take best advantage of their circumstances. But at the far ends of the scale, I don't think you find a lot of Es yearning to spend 3 months hiking the Appalachian Trail solo, nor many I's yearning to take a 3-month excursion on a bustling luxury cruise ship.

I'm a pretty strong "I" on the B-M continuum, typically scoring in the mid-80s or higher (the other 10-15% I guess is what makes me "chatty" on anonymous internet forums). I think we tend to be somewhat misunderstood. We are often rather personable and can be reasonably functional in social settings, albeit perhaps with a twinge of discomfort and it not being something we miss terribly when we're away from it. In my case I've been told by people I have in time gotten to know that their first impression of me was "arrogant" or "intimidating". When I probed about that it always came down to the fact that I look "normal" but initially tended to mostly keep to myself (apparently people that look introverted are snap-judged more charitably). That's been happening as far back as high school and as recently as within the past year, a span of 35+ years.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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IllinDave: In my case I've been told by people I have in time gotten to know that their first impression of me was "arrogant" or "intimidating".
But, you don't come off that way in writing. Opposite applies to me. Some people find my "voice" intimidating, but nobody ever finds my physical presence intimidating. The first impression strangers on a bus have of me is that I would say "Yes." if they asked if it would be okay if they slept on me. My most autocratic ex once told me that I didn't need to worry about having money in my old age because, like his nanny, somebody would just put me in a bed in their extra room and tuck a baby in to sleep with me. No endgame to earning my keep as a giant cuddle-toy.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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I find the supposition by some that introverts are more adventurous than extroverts hard to understand. Maybe it depends on what you consider adventurous.

Thrifty, here is a description of an extrovert's travel to compare your own to. https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/ ... ned-travel

I have a real hard time seeing how being an introvert would have made that trip more adventurous for me.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

That's certainly quite a random excursion Oldpro.
I think the aspects of this I would have difficulty with would be spending a lot of time with the same people who I just met unless I really connected with them really well and long term contact did not sap my energy- which is rare. So the week long staying at someone's place getting drunk regularly would be my achilles heel of the scenario. It is more likely I would have stayed for a few days and then ventured on. I can reasonably easily meet and connect with people on a short term basis though, which is how my travel experiences have sometimes gone from segue to segue. However as an introvert I have often trodden my own pathway and determine my own course of destination which has no bearing on who else is going or wants to come. It is just where I want to go.

I think however the achilles heel for extroverts could be that at one of those points where they meet a group of people they get on with they could get trapped into pack mentality and wanting to build a social network from there and live a ground hog day of getting drunk and wasted over and over again in the same place and make sure that they are around that same group of people. Unless they all want to go to the same place from there (which leads to a more regularly trodden path they all flock to - Ibitha?). They want to go where all the popular people go.

Being a highly analytical introvert the other area I might struggle with is spontaneity. I have a regular urge to maximise benefit and minimise risk. So for many of the transitions I would be likely to need to do some thinking and research before taking action to try and meet those goals. Conversely sometimes extrovert spontaneity can lead to doing nothing. If you don't chart and plan a course of action and the whole group does not choose a new course of action you can stay put and end up changing nothing.

I have not hitchhiked much but I have mainly travelled in undeveloped countries rather than Europe. I have hitchhiked in Canada however.

One of the most random bohemian people I have ever met is a guy who stayed with me as a couchsurfer. He had a mainly shaved head but with one big curly dreadlock that curled around from his head. He dressed in all these weird clothes like Peter Pan. He had graduated with a degree but had decided he did not want a working life. So he travelled the world as he pleased. He did so by staying with random people on couchsurfing, hitchhiking (in any country actually) and busking. He juggled for money to pay his meagre travel costs. He also taught yoga sometimes. He was absolutely an introvert. My place was more peaceful with him there than when he was not there. Quiet as a mouse.

I recently read Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunas. He reports his introverted van dwelling adventure across North America. He regularly hitch hiked around between various destinations and the stories are hilarious. He also reports his experiences at different destinations of being surrounded by mindless extroverts getting drunk, smoking crack, having dramatic spousal spats, spending all their money, changing nothing in their lives and living their ground hog day cycle over and over. He is definitely an introvert wanderer. Then also Christopher McCandless from Into the Wild hitchhiked all over Canada USA and Mexico on his own with random interesting colourful people and ultimately tried living in the wild in an old bus he found in Northern Alaska. He was an introvert if ever there was one.

I think introverts are also more likely to to wander around with oddball weird and wonderful (and possibly introverted) people similar to how Christopher McCandless did which can lead to more unique experiences. Whereas extroverts may be more inclined to want to be around more popular, attractive, fashionable, mainstream seemingly "successful" people who they can show being with in their photos.

I'm not sure I would say that introverts are more adventurous. But I would say that we are much better able to put the "independent" into "independent travel". Their travel experience can tend to be more unique.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

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thrifty++ wrote:I recently read Walden on Wheels by Ken Ilgunas. ... He is definitely an introvert wanderer.

I'm not sure I would say that introverts are more adventurous. But I would say that we are much better able to put the "independent" into "independent travel". Their travel experience can tend to be more unique.
The people featured in "Without Bound" are a good example of the kind of introverts you're talking about. They are comfortable living alone and defining their own journey as they go, but they also feel comfortable--and are comforted--by the group of kindred souls to which they belong.
thrifty++ wrote:Delayed gratification seems to feature so heavily in ERE.
I'm not sure it's delayed gratification as much as planned gratification. I thought this was closer to the truth IMO ...
thrifty++ wrote:Being a highly analytical introvert the other area I might struggle with is spontaneity.
Introverts are great at planning adventures that are tailored to their specific desires regardless of what's trendy or cool. OTOH, extroverts are probably more likely to actually go out on an adventure, either because it's the 'thing' to do or because of peer pressure. Not sure if one is better than the other. They're just different.

Fair or not, I've always thought of introverts as more mentally and philosophically adventurous, and extroverts as more socially and physically adventurous.

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Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by jacob »

In the Jungian (psychological) sense (which is not the vernacular, shy, outgoing, etc.), the easy definition is that intraverts derive energy from alone-time, whereas extraverts derive energy from together-time.

Brain chemistry confirms and expands somewhat. (You can google all this.) Intraverts are more sensitive to dopamine than extraverts. If the average generators (<=activities) of dopamine in society are calibrated by the average human being, introverts would tend to be overstimulated and tend to avoid exciting stuff like gambling, social interaction, and reckless driving. Extraverts would tend to seek out such activities. Intraverts also have greater and more complex blood flow going to the brain. Fact! Whatever, but the prefrontal cortex (abstract thought) is [generally] more developed (thicker/more connections) in intraverts. This means that intraverts tend to process information more deeply than extraverts. This is perhaps why intraverts prefer the written word of the internet whereas extraverts prefer IRL interactions. Writing vs talking.

So that's tying the psychological preferences back to inherent brain chemistry. But a preference doesn't automatically cause skills or behaviour even if it tends to. It just makes it physiologically easier to behave in a certain way.

For example, I (INTJ) was the mainsail trimmer when I was racing yachts. That's a position that requires a lot of physical work and a lot of thinking about details (wind speed, direction, heel, traveller, cunningham, vang, leech lines, belly, mast tension, jib leads, jib trim, and helm) but mostly slow moving stuff (you have a few seconds to think and adjust). I tried foredecking a few times and I hated it. The foredeck job is mostly about making fast but simple decisions that prevent disaster. Usually reserved for advanced sailors. I hated it. It was way too exciting for me. Do I need to say that the foredeck was almost always manned by an extravert (ES*) when available? So was the skipper/helm position (EN*). The helm is like trim but with less details but demanding immediate action. The grinders and jib trimmers who took orders from the rear (helm and me) needed immediate and accurate execution. Not surprisingly, they were mostly IS*.

If you think of "living" as running the entire ship, it might give some idea of the pros and cons of the different types.

Given YOUR inherent brain chemistry, you should be capable of both outgoing and "ingoing" behavior. It's just that either one will be easier than the other. Like being tall playing basketball. You can be short and still succeed as long as you practice more than a tall person.

The best distillation I can think of is that it's a trade-off between speed and detail. Intraverts tend to fail in social/gambling/trainwreck situations because these situations move too fast for I*... the intravert is wasting cycles analysing and thus starts to lag ("I now have a response to what you said 20 seconds ago")... effectively the intravert shuts down. Intraverts excel in situations that allow enough time to analyse properly---e.g. information is either slow moving or it's very familiar (e.g. family, work, ERE meetups)---such as retirement planning, DIY skills, long term planning. Here extraverts went wrong because they picked too fast without thinking.

It takes all kinds to make a ship run well in this world. See paragraph 4. If you fill positions at random, maybe think of E* as having more beta and I*s as having more alpha. Overall...

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