Pros and cons of introversion

Favorite quotations, etc.
steveo73
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by steveo73 »

I'm reading this book at the moment:- http://www.amazon.com/Introverts-Way-Li ... overts+way

I'm definitely introverted however I can talk a lot in certain situations. I just like a lot of alone and quiet time.

OldPro
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by OldPro »

I don't know where you keep coming up with this extroverts are drunks line thrifty but it's getting a bit tiring. I know plenty of extroverts like myself why know how to drink and socialize without getting drunk. The same is true of your continued insistence that extroverts want mainstream, popular, fashionable, successful, etc. That's simply your opinion however incorrect.

You will find introverts and extroverts in all the places, doing all the things you can mention. They will simply do them differently. There are plenty of introverts who just want to party, get laid and have a lot of money and fame. They just aren't as obvious in showing they want those things as an extrovert is.

Going back to adventure, jennypenny writes, "Introverts are great at planning adventures that are tailored to their specific desires regardless of what's trendy or cool. OTOH, extroverts are probably more likely to actually go out on an adventure, either because it's the 'thing' to do or because of peer pressure. Not sure if one is better than the other. They're just different."

I see it a bit differently. First, you cannot plan an adventure. I think the confusion comes from a common misunderstanding of what the word 'adventure' actually means. Doing a bungy jump is often thought of as adventurous. But it contains only ONE aspect of adventure, that one being risk. So it would more properly be a 'risky venture' rather than an 'adventure.'

An adventure by definition and depending on how many different dictionary definitions you Google, requires two main components. Risk and the unknown. Anything planned does not INTEND for there to be much in the way of unknown, that's the point of planning. It may turn out that some unknowns come up but it was never intended.

I often write about it in travel forums as the difference between a self-planned TOUR and an unplanned adventure. Most introverts will be more comfortable if they plan a tour. Going of on actual unplanned travel which entails far more risk and unknown, is not likely to appeal to the introvert. That to me also makes your comment that, " much better able to put the "independent" into "independent travel".", make no sense to me. An Independent tourist is simply a tourist who plans his/her own tour. An independent traveller, has no plan to begin with beyond going to A. An introvert may do the second and just analyze each step along the way, an extrovert may do the same but simply spend less time on the analysis step. BOTH my find themselves in an adventure when travelling, neither could plan it and often it is those unplanned things that are the best part of travel.

So neither can plan an adventure jennypenny but both can find themselves having one when the UNEXPECTED happens that involves RISK of some kind (it does not have to be physical risk involving the possibility of death). They are as you say, simply 'different' in how they probably ended up there and what their reaction is likely to be.

An introvert OR an extrovert who grew up in a small town with one family restaurant may well see being taken unexpectedly by someone to dinner at a Thai restaurant in the big city as an adventure. It involves both the unknown and risk, it's an adventure. The question might be which one is more likely to baulk if given the chance.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

OldPro said: An adventure by definition and depending on how many different dictionary definitions you Google, requires two main components. Risk and the unknown. Anything planned does not INTEND for there to be much in the way of unknown, that's the point of planning. It may turn out that some unknowns come up but it was never intended.
I mostly agree. It is much more of an adventure for me to take a scavenger/scouting walk in my neighborhood than it would be to take a luxury cruise vacation (yawn, boring.)The rules of a scavenger/scouting walk are that you can't come home until you find 10 items of value, new pieces of information, social interactions, or important things to put on your map. Of course, adding the rules probably makes it more of a quest than an adventure, and it wouldn't necessarily have the element of risk in a different neighborhood. If you lived in a more tame neighborhood, you would have to think about what would make it feel more risky for you.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6521
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by jennypenny »

A quick dictionary search for "adventure" came up with "an exciting or remarkable experience" and "daring and exciting activity calling for enterprise and enthusiasm." I get that some people think spontaneity is required, but I don't. I guess I assume that life always throws a little spontaneity at you, even when you've overplanned. Besides, I still don't think it's required. Look at Alastair Humphreys's adventures, or even akratic's AT hike last year. Those require an immense amount of planning and preparation, yet I don't think that makes them any less of an adventure.

I also wouldn't limit adventures to physical pursuits. That's why I made that comment above. Introvert adventures can take many different forms. Just because something won't kill a person doesn't make it less risky. Any time a person is working without a net, they're on an adventure. ERE can be seen as an adventure in that light.

thrifty++
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

jennypenny wrote:A quick dictionary search for "adventure" came up with "an exciting or remarkable experience" and "daring and exciting activity calling for enterprise and enthusiasm." I get that some people think spontaneity is required, but I don't. I guess I assume that life always throws a little spontaneity at you, even when you've overplanned. Besides, I still don't think it's required. Look at Alastair Humphreys's adventures, or even akratic's AT hike last year. Those require an immense amount of planning and preparation, yet I don't think that makes them any less of an adventure.
Totally agree. Often an adventure which involves much planning can take on a sense of awe due to the impressive rigid determination and individualism it can involve. Sometimes such rigour can take on a spiritual element, especially when taken to the extreme. Take the two examples I have already cited above. You might say ERE itself, and Jacob's experience is an awe inspiring adventure. One which introverts seem to excel at. Also last night I watched Maidentrip. A documentary about the youngest person ever to travel the world on her own in a yacht, a girl from the ages 14 to 16. This was another example of significant planning, from the acquisition of the dilapidated boat, to its remodelling, to the timing of the voyage, to the mapping of it, to the timing of the seas and the winds, to the specific destinations to the food and supplies, and the precise dates required in order to make the record of being the youngest person. Despite such planning this was one hell of an amazing adventure and inspiring to watch.

Despite planning things there is always going be elements of spontaneity because that's how the world works. You could say that planning is a conscious and mindful approach to things which reaps significant rewards in my view and can help reap such rewards with ERE and countless other things.
Last edited by thrifty++ on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

thrifty++
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

OldPro wrote:I don't know where you keep coming up with this extroverts are drunks line thrifty but it's getting a bit tiring. I know plenty of extroverts like myself why know how to drink and socialize without getting drunk. The same is true of your continued insistence that extroverts want mainstream, popular, fashionable, successful, etc. That's simply your opinion however incorrect.

You will find introverts and extroverts in all the places, doing all the things you can mention. They will simply do them differently. There are plenty of introverts who just want to party, get laid and have a lot of money and fame. They just aren't as obvious in showing they want those things as an extrovert is.
My opinion is correct. It is a generalisation. There will always be exceptions of course. Extroverts and introverts are simply not drawn to the same things and that is how it is. They are different so of course they will be drawn to different things. So you are not going to see them in equal quantities doing all the things I mention. There will be more introverts partaking in such things than is natural because of society's current focus on extroverted leanings being superior. There is a societal preoccupation with alcohol and partying being considered more interesting than most other things. Reality TV Show - what percentage of introverts do you think will be on it? How much do the people on such shows drink heavily? How much do they party? How much do you think such people care about what is mainstream and fashionable? And how much do they care about popularity? International Board Gaming Tournament - ask yourself the same questions.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

thrifty ++ said: Reality TV Show - what percentage of introverts do you think will be on it? How much do the people on such shows drink heavily? How much do they party? How much do you think such people care about what is mainstream and fashionable? And how much do they care about popularity? International Board Gaming Tournament - ask yourself the same questions.
No. My youngest sister is so extroverted she would stand in the front yard by the sidewalk when she was 4 waiting for people to come by so she could talk to them. She is also a tournament level Scrabble player and a moderate, social drinker. In fact, one of her methods of seduction is to put a barrette in her hair and go into a bar and challenge some poor victim to a game of Scrabble. My extremely introverted ex-husband drank 6 nights out of 7, and I would have to plead and plead just to get him to maybe take a hike in the woods with me. One of my best friends was an extremely introverted writer and he died of alcoholism in his 40s. My quite extroverted ex-"husband" never drank because he was a practicing Muslim, and because he got into too many bar-room brawls in his youth when he did drink, and he was a meticulous travel planner. He made me nuts because we would have to pack for every eventuality of a half-hour bike ride, but otherwise he was quite game for an adventure. If I were to generalize based on my experience, I would say that intelligent F's are the most likely to really abuse substances due to their sensitivity, and intelligent J's have a tendency towards lacking the spontaneity sometimes associated with adventure.

OldPro
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by OldPro »

Jennypenny, you can pick the one definition of adventure you like from a list or you can look at a longer list for consensus. That's why I wrote, 'depending on how many you Google'. https://www.google.ca/search?q=adventur ... on&ie=&oe=
Look at how many use words like 'risk' and 'unknown'. Both must be present for it to be an adventure vs. a venture.

I think examples like you give of hiking the AT are examples of ventures, not adventures. You can plan a venture obviously and they can even be risky ventures. But they only become adventures when the unknown happens. http://the-difference-between.com/adventure/venture The problem as I said is that the definition of adventure has been in a sense downgraded to include what are really only risky ventures.

Thrifty, your anecdotal 'evidence' is easily rebutted by someone else's anecdotal evidence such as that now provided by 7w5. All I can say is that if you really believe what you say you do about extroverts, then it seems you have somehow managed to meet a majority of only a certain kind of extrovert. Maybe you just need to meet more extroverts. Your generalization is based only on those you have met, it's YOUR generalization, not everyone's. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it but that does not mean it is correct.

It is no different than my saying, all introverts are boring. Obviously there are boring introverts but it does not mean all or even the majority are boring. Extroverts are no more likely to want to drink, party, care about mainstream, fashionable, etc. than introverts are likely to be boring thrifty. Or do you want to agree that most introverts are boring? Are you as willing to pigeon-hole them as you are to pigeon-hole extroverts?

How about. introverts worry about "society's current focus on extroverted leanings being superior" and feel inferior as a result. This leads them to compensate for it by declaring extroverts drink too much. Happy with that?

GandK
Posts: 2018
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by GandK »

OldPro wrote:Your generalization is based only on those you have met, it's YOUR generalization, not everyone's. It's your opinion and you're entitled to it but that does not mean it is correct.
I'm not sure I agree with this line of thinking. Stereotypes become stereotypes because too many people fit them. Public judgments can be dangerous when I use them instead of my own judgment, but I generally find them a useful supplement to my own.

I do not know more boring introverts than extroverts. Introverts are more "boring" IMO in their adherence to quiet routine, yes. But extroverts are more likely to drone on about things that nobody cares about except them. Which is more boring? You decide.

Also, I think it likely that most people know more alcoholic extroverts than alcoholic introverts because extroverts are likely to see/use drinking as a means of meeting new people. I know way more extroverts that get into bar brawls, get DUIs and otherwise make an idiot of themselves when they drink, but I know just as many introverts who use alcohol as a coping mechanism. They just tend to do it at home, maybe with a friend or two.

OldPro
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by OldPro »

Gandk, how many boring introverts or extroverts YOU know is again simply anecdotal evidence. I do agree that whether it is being boring or being alchohilic, the difference is you are more likely to SEE the extroverts doing it.

Rather than relying on stereotypes however, even if tempered with your own observations, I much prefer to look for solid evidence based on research. It used to be that stereotypes ruled the roost but since the advent of the internet and Google, it is far easier today for anyone to do the research and debunk stereotypical myths. Like, 'extroverts do more drinking'.

So you will find a statement like, "It has been observed though that the majority of addicts start off as loners. This can be because they feel shy or because they are introverted." In an article by an alcohol rehab organization. http://alcoholrehab.com/addiction-artic ... addiction/

Another article gives a pro and con, introvert vs. extrovert comparison and suggests the answer to the question is not universally agreed on. http://blog.palmpartners.com/addiction- ... xtroverts/ But does include this, "Nevertheless, the studies that report more introverts among addicts are more common than the ones that report more extroversion." Note they are referring to 'studies', not opinions. I can accept they aren't lying when they say there are 'studies' or I can dig deeper to find the actual studies to read for myself.

How about this statement, "His findings are supported by a study conducted by the University of North Carolina that concluded that seventy-four percent of depressed people are introverts." http://patricia-weber.com/the-health-ri ... roversion/

Or how about this statement, "Research by the University of Houston-Victoria during the year 2001 actually established that introverted personalities suffer from a significantly lower level of subjective well-being and reduced psychological well-being combined with an increased self-awareness (in terms of self reflection) than extroverted persons." http://www.ipersonic.com/blog_files/int ... -risk.html

But a bit more digging turns up an actual study by Oxford University which should be of real interest to those hear who are MBTI fans. It not only connects alchohol/substance abuse directly to MBTI, it also refers to specifics of various other actual studies done by others. I'd say it is as good 'real evidence' as you will find. http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/34/3/370

The relevant conclusions of this study are this: "The above results may help clarify discrepancies which have appeared in the substance misuse literature concerning the underlying personality structure of alcoholics and/or other substance abusers. Significant differences in personality profiles, as measured by the MBTI, were noted between patients who had an affective disorder plus an alcohol/substance-use disorder and those who had only an alcohol/substance-use disorder but no affective disorder. Alcohol/substance-use disorder patients who had no affective diagnosis tended to have profiles which were quite similar to those found in the normative population.

Alcohol/substance-use disorder patients who also had an affective disorder had MBTI profiles very much like those we have noted in individuals who have an affective disorder not associated with an alcohol or other substance disorder. The affective disorder patients were comparatively over-represented as having Introverted, Sensing, Feeling, and Perceiving preferences, and were significantly over-represented as being Introverted/Intuitive/ Feeling/Perceiving and Introverted/Sensing/ Feeling/Perceiving types (Janowsky et al., 1998).

When someone writes, 'my opinion is correct' and then goes on to cherry pick anecdotal evidence as supposed proof of their opinion being right or even suggests GandK, that stereotypes exist for a reason, it is very easy to believe that because you see extroverts drinking or stereotypes suggest they like to drink more, that that comprises evidence of something other than that you SEE them doing it more. It isn't evidence at all. But the evidence is there for anyone willing to take the time to look for it.

Reading the above links, is not going to give you many pros to being an introvert. It's also interesting to see that I Googled 'alcoholism percentage introvert vs extrovert' and I got what I got. I have not left out any links that pointed to extroverts having more of a problem. Heres' my search : https://www.google.ca/search?q=percenta ... on&ie=&oe=

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

OldPro said:Alcohol/substance-use disorder patients who also had an affective disorder had MBTI profiles very much like those we have noted in individuals who have an affective disorder not associated with an alcohol or other substance disorder. The affective disorder patients were comparatively over-represented as having Introverted, Sensing, Feeling, and Perceiving preferences, and were significantly over-represented as being Introverted/Intuitive/ Feeling/Perceiving and Introverted/Sensing/ Feeling/Perceiving types (Janowsky et al., 1998).
Exactly my experience having spent much time in the company of these types. An INFP with an affective disorder is the type who will combine whiskey and psilocybin, disconnect the speakers from the stereo, put on Mozart and then "listen" to the music by gripping the bare ends of the speaker wires.

However, most of the members of this forum are INTJs, which as far as I can ascertain thus far, is the only type that can possess an IQ over 130 and not have some sort of dsm v code. Prior to happening upon this forum, I didn't believe a whole tribe of people like that existed. I thought my only choice was to belong to the tribe of high-IQ-but-cuckoo-bananas or try to fit in with lower-IQ-but-sane.

thrifty++
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

7Wannabe5 wrote: I mostly agree. It is much more of an adventure for me to take a scavenger/scouting walk in my neighborhood than it would be to take a luxury cruise vacation (yawn, boring.)
A luxury cruise vacation is actually my nightmare idea of a vacation. Being trapped around so many people in a small space. I think all the close proximity to people I don't know and small talk with acquaintances would sap far more of my energy than climbing Mt Kilmanjaro, without any of the nourishment the latter would provide, which come to think of it, is probably something I would actually really like to do.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

thrifty++ said: A luxury cruise vacation is actually my nightmare idea of a vacation. Being trapped around so many people in a small space. I think all the close proximity to people I don't know and small talk with acquaintances would sap far more of my energy than climbing Mt Kilmanjaro, without any of the nourishment the latter would provide, which come to think of it, is probably something I would actually really like to do.
Neither option appeals to me much, and my reactive generalizations would be that the first is something only an "old baby" would want to do, and the second is the sort of useless, boring activity that mostly only boys want to do, like putting balls into nets over and over again.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am
Location: Clinton River Watershed

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, forced to hastily eat my poorly-thought-out words once again. It recently came to my attention, that due to small world effect, I am currently the mistress of one of the 400 people who attended the funeral of Sir Edmund Hillary. So, turns out that he was almost certainly one of you people; "nice man, but difficult to talk to", definitely introverted, probably INTJ. And, I am no longer allowed to make mean-spirited comments about people who are driven to climb mountains due to the fact that they are also not unlikely to engage in philanthropy etc, etc, etc. and not just because of obvious sour-grapes due to lack of possession of anything resembling hip-to-shoulder ratio recommended for such an endeavor and paralyzing fear of heights, blah,blah, blah whatever...

enigmaT120
Posts: 1176
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:14 pm
Location: Falls City, OR

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by enigmaT120 »

You're allowed to by me. But I can't remember what the difference is between INTJ and ISTJ (which I tested as).

So my tolerance probably gets you nowhere. I assume people climb that mountain to see the dead leopard and to enjoy the view.

thrifty++
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by thrifty++ »

7Wannabe5 wrote:Well, forced to hastily eat my poorly-thought-out words once again. It recently came to my attention, that due to small world effect, I am currently the mistress of one of the 400 people who attended the funeral of Sir Edmund Hillary. So, turns out that he was almost certainly one of you people; "nice man, but difficult to talk to", definitely introverted, probably INTJ. And, I am no longer allowed to make mean-spirited comments about people who are driven to climb mountains due to the fact that they are also not unlikely to engage in philanthropy etc, etc, etc. and not just because of obvious sour-grapes due to lack of possession of anything resembling hip-to-shoulder ratio recommended for such an endeavor and paralyzing fear of heights, blah,blah, blah whatever...
Interesting. He is a bit of a legend where I am. His face is on many of our coins. Him and the queen of England.

Miss Lonelyhearts
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:53 am

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

Pro: introverts have a natural aversion to saying anything, which means that when they do, it's usually worth listening to.
Con: some good material goes to waste in deference to the natural aversion.

I believe the corollary applies to extraverts. All good ideas are expressed, but all bad ideas as well. Overall I think the extraverts' dilemma is slightly preferable.

For an introvert, once you've acknowledged that the social consequences of saying something stupid tend to be pretty low (or at least lower than imagined for those with severe social anxiety) it gets easier to loosen up and spitball a bit.

Haven't found the corrective for the Es yet.

FBeyer
Posts: 1075
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:25 am

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by FBeyer »

Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:...
I believe the corollary applies to extraverts. All good ideas are expressed, but all bad ideas as well. Overall I think the extraverts' dilemma is slightly preferable...
Only if you are able to take criticism. Mouthing off if you think you're THE shit, when you're actually just shit, makes for some tense working environments. :)

I know I don't know a lot of things and I've found that the fastest way to learn is to expose my ignorance. For those in academia who are too proud to do so, it's a thoroughly embarrassing experience to share a meeting with me :D

User avatar
Stahlmann
Posts: 808
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Re: Pros and cons of introversion

Post by Stahlmann »

another goldmine.

Post Reply