Is it worth to move to the US from Switzerland?

[maxysu]

I am from Germany and after college, I started my first job in Switzerland doing software engineering. Although I did not know anything about ERE back then, I always was good in finding relatively well-paid jobs and spending little. Thus, Switzerland was a conscious choice.

I started out without any experience, but due to my Masters degree, I could negotiate a rather high starting salary: 6.5k CHF / month in net salary. To lower my expenses, I shop in Germany on weekends and hence I benefit from the geographical price arbitrage. After I reach FI, I could move to Germany and live for little money. Currently, my savings rate is around 82%-85%. My company is rather small, so I can not expect any huge jumps in pay. But there might be a jump in expenses, if I marry and / or make kids.

Salary-wise I am not complaining; in Germany or in the US it would be more like 3k / month (45k EUR/USD per year), and this is only true for SanFran or NYC/Chicago.

This is why I am considering moving to the US:

During my studies, I spent four months in New York and I kind of love the American attitude to many things (e.g., innovation, IT, startups). I like Switzerland, but I notice that few people in Switzerland understand what I am doing. Swiss people earn a lot and spend a lot. That is it.

I see that Jacob moved from California to Chicago to be closer to like-minded ERE people. So I am playing with the same thoughts. A move to the US would be a non-trivial endeavor. For me, there are basically four ways to do this:

1) Move to Canada, get a Canadian passport after three years, and move to the US.
2) H1b-slave, many bad things in this; e.g., wife can not work.
3) L1 company transfer, also many bad things; if the company fires you, you have to leave immediately.
4) O-visa, many freedoms, very hard to get, one has to prove that one is sort of world class in design, UX or whatever sounds artistic. Costs at least 5k USD for the lawyer.

Is it worth the effort, loss in earnings and all that to move to the US? I know, this is a very personal question, and probably only I can give the answer to this. But still, I would be thankful for any input, you might have on this.

Sorry if this does not fit the "inspiration" section; I could not find a better one.

[jacob]

I see that Jacob moved from California to Chicago to be closer to like-minded ERE people. So I am playing with the same thoughts. A move to the US would be a non-trivial endeavor. For me, there are basically four ways to do this:

1) Move to Canada, get a Canadian passport after three years, and move to the US.

That was just a nice and accidental side-effect to my move. That is not why I moved. It probably comes down to cultural differences. You can find cultural differences in the US just like you can in the EU. The difference is that in Europe flags and nationalities tend to be dividing whereas in the US they're uniting. This creates a big practical difference.

I don't think that (1) option will work. You'd still need a US visa.

[maxysu]

I don't think that (1) option will work. You'd still need a US visa.

Due to my degree, I can immigrate to Canada easily because they have a point system that is friendly to people, who look good on paper. After I spend three years working in Canada, I can get a Canadian passport and I can keep my German one. Then, I can work in the US through NAFTA, I thought.

@Jacob
You lived in Switzerland, any thoughts on working there to become FI?

[JuliusFC]

Immigrating to Canada as a stepping stone to the US is pretty common. As a Canadian citizen, you can work in the US provided the US company sponsors you for the TN-1 visa under NAFTA. It is relatively easy visa to get compared to others and there is no cap.

[slsdly]

I thought it took longer to become a Canadian citizen. Nearly 4 years present in the last 6 *after* you become a permanent resident or so I thought. It does not give you a US green card or anything. Not until we get "liberated" for our oil/water/from the NDP anyways.

Sure, we can spend months there as a tourist without a visa, but if you just hop across the border now and then to "refresh" it, you are going to get denied at some point. You certainly cannot work there without a special visa. I've done work for US companies while residing in Canada, and our trade agreements helped with taxation issues, but that's about it....

Former colleagues have gotten into the US on H1B visas as Canadians. To my knowledge, all of them have made the local prevailing wage, not exactly slaves. While I get there is a lot of civic pride down south, it is not like being sent back to Canada due to employer / visa issues is a credible threat to underpay us (as compared to other non-first world immigrants). If you are coming from Europe, it is likely a similar situation...? I think there is also a work visa your spouse can apply if you go over through the H1B (if I recall my colleagues desires for that type correctly).

[SimpleLife]

Your post didn't give a hard reason to move to the US. Instead your post made many assumptions to support and justify your desire to move to the US; you assumed Jacob move to Chicago for the same reasons you want to move to the US without any factual evidence of this being the case and were then corrected on this.

To me, this and the rest of your post signal that you don't have an actual valid reason to move to the US, in fact, it sounds like the salary for you would be lower (how is that possible, to be making 45K as a developer in the US unless you are talking about podunk county USA) and you will face a lot of legal hurdles and costs in doing this.

I don't know that I'd be making any moves to a country with nearly 19 trillion in debt and counting. 1/3 of the country is literally on welfare, and more than half pay no taxes at all and are part of the growing number of people who are living off some form of government entitlement programs even if not directly welfare.

If socialism is your thing, then maybe. But the party is almost over, it's not sustainable, and some prominent figures expect the bubble to burst at around 24 trillion. This is probably the last place I'd be moving to. Certain political parties just don't understand why you can't spend more than you get, and that taking from those who work and giving it to the growing number of people who don't, isn't a formula for success...

[mfi]

At 82-85% savings rate you benefit from a very short accumulation phase. Why would you want to slow yourself down with a potentially lower savings rate in the US and many immigration hurdles along the way?

The fact that people don't understand what you do or don't live like you do is par for the FI/ERE course, but not a good reason to put yourself at a disadvantage. I recall that you questioned your suitability for FI in another thread and I hope that subconsciously you are not trying to sabotage your efforts. Lastly, you can always pursue immigration after FI and give youself a lot more options.

Full disclosure: I've been through F1, H1B, Green card, US citizenship and was successful, but I know many people who failed during the immigration process. Companies fold, relationships break, life happens.....

[sky]

In your situation, you are saving about ten months of expenses each month, and could FI after 30 months of work. This is a very fortunate situation, which you should use not only to FI at current expense levels, but also to an expense level when married and living in Canada. Then you can use your employment experience, language skills and age to score well on the immigration rating application. If successful, you can do contract work that suits you, or start a business.

[chenda]

From what you are saying in your post I don't see any particular benefit to moving. Unless you are looking for an adventure or want to live in another country for the experience.

[RealPerson]

I too fail to see why you would change anything. At that savings rate, I would continue until I am FI (in 5 years or so?). If you want to live in the US, you can enter on a tourist visa and stay in the country for 6 months. Maybe rent an apartment for 6 months? The hassle for a green card and citiizenship are just not worth it. Better come as a tourist. You get to enjoy America without the drawbacks of immigration.

[The Old Man]

...I spent four months in New York and I kind of love the American attitude to many things (e.g., innovation, IT, startups).

If this is your true reason, then I would go to Berlin. Berlin is an international city, gateway to the east, and a mecca for location independent entrepreneurs. Cost of living is also very reasonable especially in comparison to New York City and San Francisco. Go East!

I think Eastern Europe has many opportunities and many creative talented people. It just needs entrepreneurs to pull it all together. Berlin is emerging as its center.

[Jean]

Hi Maxysu,
How old are you? How far away are you from ERE?
I don't think average people will understand bether what you are doing, wherever you move.
Getting to know people can be difficult in Switzerland, it seems to be especialy true for germans, because in my opinion they make a few wrong assumptions. I worked with some otherwise very nice germans, which still had troubles with the swiss ways even after 10 years here.
I'm unfortunately quite far away from Zürich.
But what do you like doing?

[maxysu]

I am pretty sure I can stay for up to three months in the US on a tourist visa, not six.

I am mid-twenty and I am six months into ERE and away from FI 3-5 years, depending on if/when I get kids, how many etc. or other unkown unknowns.

[thrifty++]

Interesting - I have a Canadian passport but never thought it was any assistance to gaining access to working in USA. Surprised to see that it can. I always liked the idea of moving to Detroit. I would have thought Detroit was an ERE dream because the housing prices collapsed enormously. If there is no jobs then maybe working in Windsor could be an option

[jbrown79]

If I were in your shoes, I won't move to the US. But if you are really seeking a change of environment and are very much interested with how your professional life goes here then just go for it. Just make sure to plan for it and do your own research. As with any parts of the world, work hard and do what makes you happy, but make sure to secure your future at the same time.