Quiz
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Re: Quiz
Sorry, I meant theology!
I haven't gone too deep, but I thought Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" and Peter Kreeft's "Christianity for Modern Pagans: PASCAL's Pensees Edited, Outlined, and Explained" were well written, clear, and logically consistent. I also Seraphim Rose's "Nihilism" was a good critique of secular modernism from an Orthodox writer.
I grew up Presbyterian (Scottish protestants), which was really nothing more than a liberal charity organization with singing, donations, and a thin veneer of Jesus painted over it. We never learned anything about theology or philosophy. So I assumed, as a teenager, all Christianity was as thin (or just silly) philosophically and never bothered learning anything more until a couple years ago. Amazingly(?), I managed to graduate University with a dual Religion/Philosophy major without ever learning anything more about Christianity other than a basic materialistic, Marxist critique...
I haven't gone too deep, but I thought Frank Sheed's "Theology for Beginners" and Peter Kreeft's "Christianity for Modern Pagans: PASCAL's Pensees Edited, Outlined, and Explained" were well written, clear, and logically consistent. I also Seraphim Rose's "Nihilism" was a good critique of secular modernism from an Orthodox writer.
I grew up Presbyterian (Scottish protestants), which was really nothing more than a liberal charity organization with singing, donations, and a thin veneer of Jesus painted over it. We never learned anything about theology or philosophy. So I assumed, as a teenager, all Christianity was as thin (or just silly) philosophically and never bothered learning anything more until a couple years ago. Amazingly(?), I managed to graduate University with a dual Religion/Philosophy major without ever learning anything more about Christianity other than a basic materialistic, Marxist critique...
Last edited by workathome on Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Quiz
Interesting perspective, though I have to wonder how the faithful would feel about equating those who relinquish a belief in god with those who relinquish nuclear weapons.workathome wrote:WRT to my comment "without the Catholic faith, wouldn't they just be...", I mean that, if secular non-Catholics are largely in praise of the Church's new modernizing/secularizing direction, it might actually be a cause for concern among current Catholics. Maybe like a theoretical case of the Arab world loudly praising a decision by Israel to disarm its nuclear warheads and disband its armed forces - more a "canary in the coal mine" than a cause for joy.
It is also possible that the Vatican is taking pointers from the spin-doctors at The Onion:
Pope To Ease Up On Jesus Talk, Pontiff Trying To Be Not So In-Your-Face With That Stuff
http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-t ... alk,19727/
Funny thing is, I believe that is exactly what he is doing. He realizes that the whole miracles, sea-partings, fish-into-wine, heaven and hell stuff doesn't test very well with most of the people in the pews. They are the ones who have been leaving in droves. They just want to congregate, to be together with other good people, to have a wise person to talk with when they experience a set-back in life, and to earn the right to have a place and priest for their kids weddings and their funerals. To them the magic beans stuff is quaint at best and insulting at worst.
Look carefully at the coverage of the new pope, even in the Catholic press. Notice how he really is making an effort to not be so in your face with that stuff.
Last edited by Ego on Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quiz
I didn't mean to equate faith with nuclear warheads, but just a theoretical concern with the idea of enemies rejoicing.
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Re: Quiz
The problem is, without the miracles, Christianity isn't Christianity. The second you deny Jesus' Godhood, either He was insane, a liar, or the apostles were liars, so really there's no point in having the religion at all. That's why it's not a simple easing towards secularism - the Church is or it isn't.
To a Catholic, a miracle isn't a simple magic trick, but a mystery with important multiple layers of meaning worth meditating on (e.g. Calming the storm is linked to calming the mind, eliminating fear as a dominate emotion, remaining clear-headed through life's "storms." God's power of nature represents the help prayer can provide with assistance over base nature/emotions. Calling to God through prayer is a form of meditation, see prayer of the heart or jesus prayer.)
To a Catholic, a miracle isn't a simple magic trick, but a mystery with important multiple layers of meaning worth meditating on (e.g. Calming the storm is linked to calming the mind, eliminating fear as a dominate emotion, remaining clear-headed through life's "storms." God's power of nature represents the help prayer can provide with assistance over base nature/emotions. Calling to God through prayer is a form of meditation, see prayer of the heart or jesus prayer.)
Re: Quiz
I was baptized into the great big Roman Catholic Mother Church when I was 0. There was little I could do about that. I wrote a letter to count me out when I was 25. But I'm still not sure whether they are counting me when they say the Netherlands has 4 million roman catholics.
When asked, 2.4 million people in the Netherlands consider themselves roman catholic according to this article, but 2 million of them go to church less often than once per month (sorry, Dutch: http://www.hetgoedeleven.com/Samenlevin ... fault.aspx )
While my brother and my sister both married in the church (yes, in separate ceremonies and with different non-related people), I'm glad my nieces and nephew weren't baptized. If they ever want to become a catholic when they're grown, they can be so. But I'm glad they're not feeding the numbers of the RC right now, when they have had no say over it.
When asked, 2.4 million people in the Netherlands consider themselves roman catholic according to this article, but 2 million of them go to church less often than once per month (sorry, Dutch: http://www.hetgoedeleven.com/Samenlevin ... fault.aspx )
While my brother and my sister both married in the church (yes, in separate ceremonies and with different non-related people), I'm glad my nieces and nephew weren't baptized. If they ever want to become a catholic when they're grown, they can be so. But I'm glad they're not feeding the numbers of the RC right now, when they have had no say over it.
- jennypenny
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Re: Quiz
Yes, I understand how statistics work.jacob wrote:@jp - When comparing numbers, always consider whether those are relative numbers or absolute numbers. For example, the world population increases faster than 2%, so if Catholicism is gaining less than that, it's losing the relative game.
Why is the relative game all that matters? Even if 20% are like Dutchgirl and shouldn't be counted, that still leaves a billion Catholics. It's a staggering number if you take into account the stats provided on the population thread that show many countries with large Catholic populations have lower growth rates.
So how are we classifying? They go to Mass once a week? once a month? C & E people? I'm not sure why just indicating they are 'Catholic' isn't enough? It's hard to define "practicing" in a objective way.Another way to see the trend is to look at demographics. Do younger people believe more or less than older people? Be very careful about classifying though. There's a big difference between practicing and non-practicing, e.g. people might check the box for X when describing their religion but if they actually aren't practicing it, what are they really?
Look at it in terms of the people who read the forum. Some post infrequently. Many never post. Does that mean you wouldn't count them among the ERE faithful? Maybe it's better to judge by lifestyle. How much do they need to save every month to be counted? 30%? 50%? 70%? What if they don't post and struggle to save more than 30%, but still aim to live as close to an ERE lifestyle as they are able? They agree with what you say, follow your teachings, and hope to live by at least some of them. Would you still count them?
Re: Quiz
The strange thing here is that being Religious is measured by going to church. If you were checking how many people are cyclists, you wouldn't ask much about which cycling club they are a member of and how often they go to the club meetings.
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Re: Quiz
My point is that debaters tend to classify according to which point they're trying to make. The exact same data can often be used to make two seemingly contradictory points.
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Re: Quiz
I think its more a desire to measure the number of Catholics, who preach as a central tenant that it's important to go to Church, not all religious.