Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Favorite quotations, etc.
daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by daylen »

In relation to what 7w5 said, my Ne structure would agree that there is something called a 'frame' and that everyone has one that may be different, but conversely my Ti would say if that were true then I would myself be looking through a single frame that cannot know what another existence is like (hence my existence is a monism).

Jason

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by Jason »

Both your arguments are indicative of the metaphysic you are arguing from: (1) Bi-furcating sexual identity within a metaphysical argument would not be an argument/move made by a Christian or a materialist; (2) 'Frame" is only important if you are placing man as an autonomous arbiter of reality, an argument/move a Christian would not make. That's obviously your prerogative. It is important to how one views human relations, but one needs not only to address the other big ticket items - the existence of evil, the problem of the one and the many, creation of the universe, etc. but to understand what system they are in when they address those questions. That's different from cognitive models. Cognitive models exist within not without metaphysical models. Christians want to have multiple relations. An honest one would admit it. They make distinctions however. A man having multiple wives is the wrong expression of a proper God given identity whereas homosexuality is a breach of that very God given identity. Its based on metaphysic that a heteronomous source of morality, of a difference source and substance, states that humankind holds a special place in the universe i.e. just because rabbits fuck like rabbits it doesn't mean its ok for people. Pantheism posits a divinity within in the created order either in man or nature or both that allows for subjective interpretation and expression of sexuality. Materialists just say, well, who cares, just drill a hole in the wall or put lube on the stick shift.

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by daylen »

From the perspective of my Ti, frame has nothing to do with man unless man is a part in my frame. The part in my frame represented by you (Jason) introduced "man" into this context.

How can you presume to know what I mean by 'frame' and/or 'cognition'? Just as I do not presume to know what you mean by 'metaphysics'.

I am not even sure what I was arguing for.. can you enlighten me?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I am reading "A Reluctant Pantheism: Discovering the Divine in Nature" by Walt McLaughlin, and was very much struck by how his spiritual journey starting from Mid-Century Midwestern "good Catholic boy" (his own description) has varied from mine starting as Mid-Century Midwestern "disinterested Catholic girl." At the age of 16 he was literally screaming in anguish in an empty church, hoping for a response from God, which he did not receive, while I was simply feeling relieved that I no longer had to suffer the boredom of attending services at the Episcopal Church (my family converted from Catholic to Episcopalian when I was around age 9 or 10) since my parents had released me from the requirement once I made the token gesture of participating in the ceremony which granted me adult status in the religion. Very interesting to me that his take on becoming "lost in the Wilderness" is overwhelmingly positive and spiritual, but his take on a period of his life where he became lost in sex and drugs is quite negative. Whereas, for me, nature, particularly "woods and water", has always from earliest memory been my spiritual home, and the first time I had sex, which was around the same time I was allowed to leave the church, it was very much like the experience of coming around a bend in a trail and suddenly seeing a stand of massive "ghost" birch. IOW, the experience was awesome (to make use of 80s girl vernacular :lol: ) on both a physiological and spiritual level for me, even though I wasn't all that romantically engaged with my partner, because he was inhabited with the masculine energy, just like a stand of massive "ghost" birch is inhabited with masculine energy or a body of water may be inhabited with feminine energy.
daylen wrote:In relation to what 7w5 said, my Ne structure would agree that there is something called a 'frame' and that everyone has one that may be different, but conversely my Ti would say if that were true then I would myself be looking through a single frame that cannot know what another existence is like (hence my existence is a monism).
Yes, and/but if language is inherently embodied, the visual perspective of any human is limited to eyeballs positioned in forward facing frame of skull. In ballroom dancing, the partner who is in the lead must form the frame for the partner who is in the follow. This frame allows the partner in the follow to exhibit more chaotic freedom in her artistic expression. This is very much analogous to how a piece of visual art must be appropriately framed or place in appropriate context in order to shine. Also, reading a well-crafted, thoughtful novel is a means by which one human can attempt to inhabit the perspective of another human.

The process of achieving financial independence is very adult masculine. It is equivalent to building a boundary wall in order to create a domain in which one's spirit can then relax or run free. When/if you are alone and deep in the wilderness, the creation of this boundary wall is irrelevant or very differently relevant. Obviously, it is also the case that money has no value when you are alone in the wilderness.



ETA: Unfortunately, I lost the first half of this post in which I responded at length to fiby41 and went on a bit about how the cult of Mani warped Christianity and Western take on sexuality and all things naturally pleasurable.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jason wrote: Pantheism posits a divinity within in the created order either in man or nature or both that allows for subjective interpretation and expression of sexuality.
Agree.

Here is the quote I lost from last post:
Put simply, Manichaeism was based on the idea of a queasy, dystopic creation in which the good- the light-had been overwhelmed and dominated by evil- the demonic- which was itself identified with matter. Through copulation and reproduction (inherently sinful), evil had imprisoned light in matter and had established the dominance of evil on earth. Jesus was able to liberate man from this miserable condition, but only briefly, and the only real hope was the eventual liberation of the spirit in death...

...It would be foolish to attribute all the evils of religion to Mani, but he does seem to have done a remarkably good job of infecting a range of belief systems with the most damaging and depressing ideas about impurity, the corruption of material existence, and the sinfulness of sexual pleasure. Of course, some of his notions were useful also to those wishing to elaborate metaphysically upon misogynistic impulses, and to those with a deterministic bent. His thinking was a kind of Pandora's box of malignity, the particles from which went fluttering off in all directions on their misshapen wings. As the scholar of Persian religion Alessandro Bausami said, Mani seems to have constructed myths out of a sense of the "monstrosity of existence"
Obviously, aspects of this philosophy have also permeated the modern "red pill" movement. As in, "Women seem wicked when you're alone."

daylen
Posts: 2528
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by daylen »

I do not think anyone understands what I mean by 'frame'. :lol:
Last edited by daylen on Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

IOW, when you are teaching your 2 year old to share his snack with a stranger, you are instilling aspects of pure Christian philosophy, but when you are smacking his hand because he was touching his pee-pee, you are instilling the aspects of the cult of Mani which infiltrated pure Christianity and peaked in the Dark Ages.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I do not think anyone gets what I mean by 'frame'. :lol:
Tautology. I was just riffing a bit on the theme to see if something might shake loose.

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by fiby41 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:09 am
, but when you are smacking his hand because he was touching his pee-pee,
Try that when he is in the womb. The way used to tell a baby's gender in an ultrasound is to see where the hands are. If they are down there it's most likely a boy.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

fiby41 wrote:Try that when he is in the womb. The way used to tell a baby's gender in an ultrasound is to see where the hands are. If they are down there it's most likely a boy.
lol- I was, of course, your typical free-spirited young hippie-type Mom, and so were my best friends, so we allowed our sons to freely engage through the phase of toddler exploration, with only minor interference at the intersection with "table manners." I don't know if most people are aware of the fact that there is an early phase of development where the penis practices achieving erections prior to going more dormant in later childhood. Obviously, most men would have little memory of experiencing this phase of development.

When one of my younger sisters was around 10 or 11, a neighborhood boy around the same age had a crush on her. One day he was talking to me about his desire to be her boyfriend, and having recently attended mandatory health education class, he seriously informed me that I didn't need to worry about his interest because he was not yet making sperm :lol:

Jason

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by Jason »

daylen wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:15 am

How can you presume to know what I mean by 'frame' and/or 'cognition'? Just as I do not presume to know what you mean by 'metaphysics'.

A person holding to a Christian metaphysic would never raise such profound concerns over the possibility of basic intelligibility between human beings. The postulation is informative of a distinct worldview.

Edit: It doesn't mean that I know exhaustively what you are talking about, but by dint of us being the same creature, created by the same creator, a basic intelligibility is always in play. That being said, I'd estimate that 95% of the time, I don't understand 95% of what the fuck you are talking about.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jason wrote:address the other big ticket items - the existence of evil
I think most humans with a Scientific Pantheist perspective would hesitate to make use of the term "evil." However, I will take a stab from the perspective of embodied language. First, I would note that what we modern humans mean when we use the word "evil" almost always refers to interaction between humans or humans upon other sentient creatures. The cocktail table we bang our shin on isn't truly "evil", even if we exclaim that is "God damned!" And aspects of nature, such as the spider wrapping up a fly are only regarded as symbolic of evil.

When I attempt to summon up a list of human behaviors which might be categorized as evil, what I notice is that many of them are embodied in a sense of entrapment and many others involve aspects of pollution. For instance, if a young human puts some gerbils in a cage, does not care for her pets, and then the gerbils eat their own young, the presence of the cage is necessary for evil to come into existence if this example is extended by analogy to other examples such as what happened at Abu Ghraib or Dachau.

There was no literal cage at Jamestown when one of the early settlers was said to have eaten the body of his pregnant wife, but ignorance of environment was a virtual cage. So, there are aspects of being "lost" involved in concepts of both good and evil. The Jamestown settler was lost due to ignorance from that which was good for a human in his environment, although nearby Native Americans were not. When later settlers were similarly at risk, the Native Americans, in alignment with the teachings of Jesus of which they had no inkling, shared their knowledge with the settlers. Then most of their population was decimated by a virus (not exactly a living thing.) This was accidental on the part of the Pilgrims, but when Amherst purposefully arranged for small pox infested blankets to be distributed to Native Americans, that was evil. I often wonder why such a liberal minded institution hasn't yet dropped his name.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by chenda »

The Iranian monotheism is more ethical, while the Indian is more metaphysical in its character. Such a difference in their respective spiritual developments was owing, no doubt, to the more active vigour of life in the old Persians and the contemplative quietude of mind in the Indians. This distinction in the latter arises in a great measure out of the climatic conditions of the country, the easy fertility of the soil and the great stretch of plains in Northern India affording no constant obstacles in physical nature to be daily overcome by man, while the climate of Persia is more bracing and the surface of the soil more rugged. The Zoroastrian ideal has accepted the challenge of the principle of evil and has enlisted itself in the fight on the side of Ahura Mazda, the great, the good, the wise. In India, although the ethical side is not absent, the emphasis has been more strongly laid on subjective realisation through a stoical suppression of desire, and the attainment of a perfect equanimity of mind by cultivating indifference to all causes of joy and sorrow. Here the idea, over which the minds of men brooded for ages, in an introspective intensity of silence, was that man as a spiritual being had to realise the truth by breaking through his sheath of self. All the desires and feelings that limit his being are keeping him shut in from the region of spiritual freedom.
Rabindranath Tagore

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@chenda:

Very interesting. As I noted in my response to fiby41 which was lost, I quickly ascertained that translations from early Sanskrit will definitely have to be part of my reading forward on this topic. Also, actually kind of freaky coincidence that as I was semi-consciously trying to envision/anthropomorphize the masculine energy of Scientific Pantheism, I intuited an Indian guy with a Phd, if he went to a gym and buffed up.


****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

I am going a bit cross-post crazy today, but I thought I would share the Nina Simone version of my current top pick for Scientific Pantheism theme song and/or what I might request be played at the occasion of the scattering of my ashes on Lake Huron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Y11hwjMNs

***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

I know some forum members are much younger than me, and some are not of Christian/Western heritage, so I wanted to note that it is pretty obvious that one of my influences would be the 60s movement in America, which I think did make decent attempt to rid Christianity of Mani influence. I know Andrew Lloyd Webber is like cilantro, either you love him or you hate him, so fair warning to those in second camp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbGEuNi2SKs

At 1:15, Mary Magdalene, a prostitute, and one of Jesus's closest companions, brings forth the sensual in the moment, and then Judas Iscariot cautions Jesus about his association with her and that which she stands for, and 60s movement Jesus defends her vigorously.

Similarly, in the Qu'ran, the prophet Jesus is described as a child so intelligent, he is well able to defend his mother from charges of sexual misconduct. In fact, his obvious intelligence is almost offered as prove in and of itself that her conduct must have been good.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by chenda »

@7wannabe5 - I am not sure how much Manichaeism actually influenced Christianity. But you might be interested in The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey is a excellent but disturbing book about the systematic Christian destruction of the classical world.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@chenda:

Added the book to my list.

The historical evidence is very clear on Manichaeism influencing Christianity. St. Augustine of Hippo, quite possibly the greatest influence on the course of Christianity after Christ himself, practiced Manichaesim for 10 years prior to conversion to Christianity. Although he disavowed the practice as heretical, his experience and the prevalence of the practice in the milieu in which he was steeped can not be over-emphasized. Obviously, as Jason noted or implied, a belief system that held the body in disgust, but saw the rising soul as pure, would have had great appeal in the crisis state of falling civilization and in the face of such events as the Black Plague.


*************************************************************************************

Obviously, aspects of the Native American traditions would also reverberate in the practice of Scientific Pantheism. Although the ultimate message of Longfellow's poetic take on the mythology of the Native Americans of my region was that the salvation offered by Christianity was worth the loss of the natural world, I think this hippie era modification by Mike Oldfield is more in alignment with Scientific Pantheism. The imagery is accurate reflection of the beauty of the region which remains relatively untouched by development. Still very easy to find yourself alone on a mist covered beach in Northern Michigan as the sun or a heron crosses the horizon. The spot I most often visit was named by Henry Schoolcraft (his journals were source for Longfellow's writing) with the Ojibwe word for "young warrior."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIXak7HH5ds

Jason

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by Jason »

chenda wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:09 pm
@7wannabe5 - I am not sure how much Manichaeism actually influenced Christianity. But you might be interested in The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey is a excellent but disturbing book about the systematic Christian destruction of the classical world.
Manichaeism was a cult that reflected early Christianity's tendency to move towards Gnosticism, the bi-furcation of the material world as evil and the spiritual world as good. It really has no lasting influence. If you read Augsustine's Confessions, he had a Mani phase. He grew out of it and set the trajectory for the next 1600 years.

To blame the Christianity on the destruction of the classical world is reductionist. There were too many internal issues to blame it on one external influence. I would read Charles Norris Cochrane's Christianity and Classical Culture to understand the relationship better.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jason:

If Mani had no lasting influence, how do you explain 20th century Catholic prohibition of masturbation and patent leather shoes? My father retained a fear of nuns into his 60s.

OTOH, I somewhat agree with your take Re fall of classical world. I think “Quo Vadis” The book not the movie was a master work on the topic.

Jason

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by Jason »

Gnosticism/dualism whatever you want to call it existed a hundred years before Mani. Pretty much started immediately with the New Testament Church in Jewish sects, although no one knows for sure. Saying Gnosticism started with Mani is like saying the blues started with Led Zeppelin.

chenda
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm
Location: Nether Wallop

Re: Celebration of Scientific Pantheism!

Post by chenda »

Jason wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:21 pm
To blame the Christianity on the destruction of the classical world is reductionist. There were too many internal issues to blame it on one external influence.
Right, and Nixey does not suggest that.

Yes, Zoroastrian duality (both ethical and metaphysical) may date back as early as 1200 or 1500 BCE, when the gathic hymms may have been first composed. This was probably a much more influential religion on the west.

Post Reply