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Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:07 pm
by Alphaville
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:10 pm
everybody who is or ever was married considers themselves to be very invested in their relationship. That's why it's also almost always the realm in which "sunk cost fallacy" is most relevant for most people. Resentment doesn't grow directly from incompatibility, no two people are perfectly compatible; it grows out of covert contracts. Hoping the other will change. Assuming the other is or believes the same. Expecting that the other won't change. Not recognizing that relationship is often is the catalyst for conflict towards the growth; sexual tension only exists with an "other", so compromise often results in short term wins which add up to long term fail, etc. etc. etc.
yes but i see the "investment" in failing relationships as more of an expectation of returns, an exchange of commodities, wanting something out of said exchange. e.g. the person who wants to "marry a doctor" or "a rich man" or "a hot lady" or something. they want stuff. they count beans. they're not partners but trade partners.

e.g. one time i made the mistake to say to this highly unevolved guy that his girlfriend was very pretty and he replied yes but she was "starting to sag a bit." wtf. he didn't see a person, just the declining commodity of a firm breast. the fucking idiot.

this is not what i meant by investment though, not that we're "locked in together" by some force. i meant that we work our asses off to make things work constantly. it's like athletic training or something. and that work amounts to something that has a very obvious presence in our lives. we're much better than we were two decades ago and we don't long for some golden past. this is the golden era. today. better than yesterday. it grows.

and yes it is a sunk cost in a sense and one day one of us will die and the other will be left ruined, but we're willing to give it a go anyway. life is just better that way for us. we're compatible in this sense-- not in minor characteristics to fill out surveys, but in choosing this.

also i hear you on the covert contracts bit, which is why a good part of the hard work consists of communication and negotiation. constantly. morning day and night, working through the conflicts not away from them. i wanna hear all the complaints. then i wanna work on solutions.

a lot of couples get tired and stop fighting and go on grumbling to themselves, each inside their own tunnel. we prefer to hash it out. always. to a non-predetermined, non-stereotypical, non-socially constructed end. this stuff is ours and nobody else's. we make the rules. it's our own private world.

as for sexual tension, sure, who hasn't looked at the neighbor lady (or lad, as it may apply) with lust in their eyes? i mean. you walk by the bakery window and there's a hot croissant, looking at you, saying take a bite. having pigged out on too many croissants to the point of indigestion i can now keep walking. i guess if i hadn't it would be more tempting.

and then also turns out that the neighbor lady has a really annoying side to her, and beyond the fantasy of the zipless fuck (thanks erica jong for the words) there is a whole package of neuroses and aggravations or even malevolence waiting to be unleashed like so many girlfriends of yore, so... no thanks, it's just a mirage, i don't want a new person.

i'll reply to the part about the house in a separate post. i got long winded with this and had to delete hahaha.

ETA:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:10 pm
I've been searching around for cheap housing options and happened upon an advertisement for a room in an intentional community which is based on anti-monogamy beliefs. […]That's what I meant by "Yeah, but what does she get out of it?"
oh, i thought initially this was about housing...!

anyway i guess i'll say... she gets to live with her favorite person in the world? ;)

(and i with mine)

https://vimeo.com/130598297

i don't know what else to say. we really have a blast together and support each other in every way. and if she has a problem with something... she's always sure to let me know :lol:

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:41 am
by Crusader
@Alphaville
I think you have a great outlook on relationships! I have a feeling that the level of maturity you have reached will mean that the one you are in right now will be your last one (in the right sense of the word).

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:50 am
by 7Wannabe5
@Alphaville:

First off, I want to note that I do believe you when you say you have a great relationship. I think we are talking a bit at cross purposes or from not entirely shared perspectives, but it is still rather useful.
yes but i see the "investment" in failing relationships as more of an expectation of returns, an exchange of commodities, wanting something out of said exchange. e.g. the person who wants to "marry a doctor" or "a rich man" or "a hot lady" or something. they want stuff. they count beans. they're not partners but trade partners.
Yes, superficial assholes exist, but that's definitely NOT what I saw in play during the years I spent in thoughtful marriage/divorce therapy groups full of intelligent people who worked VERY hard on their relationships for a long time. Does this seem like an accurate description of Biscuits'n'Gravy, Suo, IlliniDave, reepicheep, or me (off the top of my head list) or other divorced individuals you know in other contexts in which you might find intelligent, mature individuals?
she gets to live with her favorite person in the world? ;)...we really have a blast together
This made me reflect on the fact that part of my problem has been that I tend to attract men who are so depressive/grouchy/misanthropic that even though I am their favorite person in the world, that's still not good enough because it just means that they REALLY can't stand everybody else. So, it's like when I dump them or just runaway to spend a week in a motel room, I feel somewhat like Persephone rising up into the sunshine of my own more cheerful temperament.( This is true even though I very well comprehend the concept of emotional differentiation and do not think it is my job to make other people be happy.) So, when I was semi-successfully practicing polyamory a few years ago, and I had 3 old grouchy/glum swains, it was more of a "blast" for me than being in full-time relationship with any one of them, because they all had to at least try to not act grouchy/glum and make things more fun for me within the context of dating, travel or short-term cohabitation. Also, if/when they did get grouchy/glum, I was always free to leave and go back to my own domain. Of course, it is true that at my age I am shopping on the discards or long-on-the-shelf market, so maybe there do exist more consistently cheerful old men who are still happily married.

ETA: This would also validate surveys which indicate that number one factor in marriage longevity is wife's rating of husband as "agreeable" and number one trait that causes women to reject man in dating context being reported as "anger." I am kind of dysfunctional because I, obviously, frequently fail at immediately rejecting men who are disagreeable/angry at the dating level, because I have an odd tendency to view this as being funny, like Yosemite Sam, in the short run.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:58 pm
by Alphaville
Crusader wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:41 am
the level of maturity
in this area anyway, perhaps. i used to be a walking catastrophe, like a one-man 3-stooges act, so there is hope for everyone :lol:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:50 am
Does this seem like an accurate description of ...
whoa whoa... i don't know the first thing about their personal lives or who they were married to, or how they related to each other, etc... how could i accurately describe the first thing about them? did they volunteer any information to me? i'm sorry but i'll have to pass on that question, which... feels almost like a trap? seriously. no. oooof...
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:50 am
ETA: This would also validate surveys which indicate that number one factor in marriage longevity is wife's rating of husband as "agreeable" and number one trait that causes women to reject man in dating context being reported as "anger."
again i don't know about surveys, and i'm not married to a statistical representation. we're 2 particular persons.

i guess this is where we have different perspectives. and it relates to the point that i'm trying to make about picking people from predefined lists of "traits".

so, re: those factors: i'm hardly "agreeable," and i don't lack in anger, but a) i agree to hash out the problem, b) she has her own disagreeableness and anger, and c) she also agrees to hash out the problem, and d) it's important for us to identify what we're angry at, and what we disagree with, and help each other out through effort and negotiation and mutual support. shit's not magic, it's a lot of hard work.

and that there is part of the complicity i mentioned early. neither of us is great or perfect. neither of us are non-entities following the other like a mindless sidekick. we're committed to deal with our own particularities, not with "roles" or "expectations" or "social functions" or "lists" or "statistical factors" or "ideals" or "what my friends say" or "what my mother wants." we're two whole messy persons with issues who have each other's backs.

and that i guess is how we ended up becoming each other's favorite person.

not through checklists or surveys, or matching alorithms, but through... a genuine like, followed by love and choice and loyalty and work and conscious cultivation, sometimes against forces or people that would try to split us.

i mean, if you don't really like each other in the first place as people then going through the motions will be a false pretense. but if you do... that's just the starting point for the real work of creating a relationship. it's a lot of work. with a lot of threats and dangers and obstacles in the way. the only real love potion is... sweat. ok, aside from a nice smell :lol:

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:34 pm
by 7Wannabe5
“Alphaville” wrote: d) it's important for us to identify what we're angry at,
Right, but sometimes people are just angry or depressed about everything or nothing, and then it’s not about you or your relationship. It’s just an unattractive, unfortunate trait they possess whether you are in the room or not. For instance, how do you “hash out” somebody being highly irritated because you are making a sniffly noise when you breath? How do you “hash out” somebody wanting to do nothing but watch movies and smoke cigarettes in a darkened room for two weeks? You can like somebody as a person, but still not want to spend a great deal of time in their company. Sometimes the “hashing it out” comes down to “Either you take a Xanax or I’m out of here.”

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:53 pm
by Alphaville
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:34 pm
Right, but sometimes people are just angry or depressed about everything or nothing, and then it’s not about you or your relationship. It’s just an unattractive, unfortunate trait they possess whether you are in the room or not. [...]You can like somebody as a person, but still not want to spend a great deal of time in their company. Sometimes the “hashing it out” comes down to “Either you take a Xanax or I’m out of here.”
:lol:

ok that sounds to me like a superficial relationship of the "can we just be friends?" variety.

i mean if you don't like them enough to justify the work of sticking it out--just don't. if on the other hand you beloved falls ill--well that's a different dragon to kill--that's a common enemy you fight together. you do everything to protect your family.

some of my failed relationships pre-marriage involved misunderstood friendships. and unfortunately the attempted relationship killed the friendship. that's one of the possible pitfalls of casual sex: it can confuse people into misreading their relationships.

anyway regarding your hypothetical insufferable companion: this is why i think it's more natural to meet people in a social setting. because if you spot an unknown person sitting in a corner being weepy and miserable, or ranting angrily against women and minorities... you just walk the hell away from said corner :lol:

and not all social settings are bars or drunken parties. anything from a volunteer organization to a sports club to a night at the planetarium or an adult education class or the city council or whatever you're into can provide the opportunity to connect with someone. especially if it's an ongoing thing. you get to observe people.

in spite of their theoretical promise, i just don't trust these "love algorithms" of online matches. not like i trust my eyes and nose and all the other senses.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:39 pm
by 7Wannabe5
@Alphaville:

Yeah, like when I moved out on The Cowboy he suggested that we go to a Zoom relationship counselor and I said something like “Isn’t actually agreeing that you want to have a relationship kind of a prerequisite?”

OTOH, it’s not necessarily the case that your beloved’s battle with depression or alcohol or gambling or talk radio addiction is one that you can effectively help them fight, and the long run can become very long indeed. As a member of my divorce support group put it, trying to have a relationship with a severe depressive is like trying to play fetch with a dead dog.

Anyways, good point that people can sometimes temporarily fake better behavior in dating vs casual social setting. However, I think that maybe each of us might be better at spotting some red flags than others. For instance, pot smoking used car salesman types never make it to second date with me. I also have very low tolerance for men who pretend like they are listening to me when they are really watching the sports game. Also men with little pudgy hands and/or no biceps.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:08 pm
by Alphaville
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:39 pm
OTOH, it’s not necessarily the case that your beloved’s battle with depression or alcohol or gambling or talk radio addiction is one that you can effectively help them fight, and the long run can become very long indeed. As a member of my divorce support group put it, trying to have a relationship with a severe depressive is like trying to play fetch with a dead dog.
how and why did you acquire said dead dog in the first place though? what was the initial attraction? how did it sustain? that was the original problem i guess, but i can't comment on what i don't know.

however: https://edujandon.com/2021/01/shocking- ... elow.html/ :mrgreen:
eta: better yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZw35VUBdzo :mrgreen:

also re: the social setting: it's not just about spotting bad behavior outside of a date. it's also that you can spot good or great traits & behaviors that were not part of the original search algorithm, or would not have been revealed in a date setting, much less an internet profile.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:52 am
by 7Wannabe5
@Alphaville:

I met him within social setting. We were part-time co-workers and he was friends with a lot of the people I shared a house with in university town. The initial attraction was that he was cool, sexy, artsy. He played the piano while I read books. He bit me on the leg one day at work, so I lured him into bed by doing my sexy dance when we were out with a group of our friends. Then we started dating. Our 4 parents were similarly well-educated. His mother asked me to lunch and approved me. Culturally we were a great match. Obvious fail point was I got knocked up due to failure of Today brand sponge so we were married on the rush. We were young and I finished growing up faster than he did. Several years later, I was comparing insurance, cooking soup, renovating a bathroom, and balancing a baby on my hip, while he was still griping about his relationships within his family of origin while drinking too much beer and/or putting on his man-purse to go out and talk about Nietzsche with one of his dark-brooding interesting hair friends.

So, one of the reasons I like internet dating as opposed to meeting men within circle of friends or social setting is it removes the risk that I might cause relationship to commence with my dance of allurement. IOW, the format greatly reduces the possibility that I will end up semi-consciously “chasing boys.” If I follow the rule of only dating men who date me; never initiating anything myself, never being the one who resumes contact, then I don’t ever get stuck with the heavy lifting and that’s how I like it. The only problem is I probably need a stronger set of filters.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:47 am
by Alphaville
oh damn.

i don't know what to say. i'm stumped. there's a whole bunch of stuff missing from that story i think, like how he got to be so depressed if he wasn't at the beginning? or signals missed and conflicts likely avoided or postponed and the whole alcoholism thing you mentioned elsewhere. but anyway, that stuff would probably take a whole novel a to sort out.

me, when i was in my 20s, i had this live-in artist girlfriend with great legs (lol) and things were great in the sack, but it all went to hell very quickly when she refused to fight with me.

seriously, she wouldn't want to argue, and would shut down things with a haughty "don't talk to me that way" and me answering "i'm angry, how do you want me to talk" and things goign nowhere. i wasn't calling her names or anything unfair, i am just passionate about my causes like i was elsewhere, but she wouldn't deal with it.

that's how i found out that passive aggressive people drive me nuts, and i soon started to get resentful from all the unresolved conflict.

so when i met a hotheaded academic who didn't require that i bottle up my emotional energy... i quickly changed girlfriends :D

i can't imagine being with a person who refuses to address conflict or do something about it. i am guessing that something like that happened with your ex? i don't know. just the memory of my aloof ex came to mind. what if i had stayed with her? brrrrrrr! do not want.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:13 am
by Crusader
Alphaville, see, there is a question on OKC that goes something like "do you go through great lengths to avoid conflict?" :)

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:25 am
by 7Wannabe5
Yeah, it's important to hash things out, but you also have to agree on the ground rules. For instance, I've never been a huge fan of fighting with somebody who is bigger/stronger than me and likely to start breaking furniture. I also don't tolerate yelling about petty shit like how the dishwasher was loaded. Avoiding conflict will increase resentment, so if ground rules aren't agree upon or are violated, then my only option is leaving the room, taking a break, or ending the relationship. So, I am somewhat of the opinion that accusations of "passive-aggressive" can sometimes be a sort of cover for individuals who believe themselves to be more likely to dominate in an aggressive-aggressive vs civilized rational discussion type showdown. Of course, it may be the case that I experience this more than other women, because I am more likely to drive men to dumb violence or loud spewed expletives with my superior quiet verbal sparring ability :lol: Dunno.

OTOH, from what I have observed in my marriage/divorce therapy groups, a point which would be generally relevant to this group is that marital partners who exhibit classic "passive-aggressive" behavior are more likely to be financially motivated. They can't fight because they believe that they can't afford to exit the relationship. This is sometimes even more true for couples who have a great deal of accumulated assets. One partner will believe he has dominance over their entire net worth, so divorce seems like a 50% kick in the balls, so he will just grumble, grumble, grumble along rather than take the hit.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:31 am
by Crusader
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:25 am
likely to start breaking furniture. I also don't tolerate yelling about petty shit like how the dishwasher was loaded.
You really know how to pick 'em!

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:39 am
by Alphaville
Crusader wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:13 am
Alphaville, see, there is a question on OKC that goes something like "do you go through great lengths to avoid conflict?" :)
hahaha! avoid those people, my friend. there is nothing good that comes out of passivity. and sure, one can be gentle when confronting an issue, but one must address problems, or else drown.

at the same time be careful with those addicted to conflict and drama. that can be a sign of other problems :mrgreen:

ah, it's a fine balance... but it can only be resolved in practice. also, people don't know themselves too well or misrepresent things or understand things differently. language is a big source of misunderstanding.

tbh, my wife and i came into this thing with definite "problems." there is nobody perfect for you out there. if you want perfection, you end up with nothing/no one.

what made the difference with us i think was that we were willing to learn and work together from a place of honesty. there are things i think where we would have rejected each other from a list.

but writing this i realize now i was in therapy when we met, and after a while together i asked her if she'd go into it herself (on her own), and she did, and benefited from it, and so i guess that gave us the basis and the tools to function and struggle together. a bit like having a religion, only better :lol:

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:45 am
by IlliniDave
I find these sorts of discussions interesting though I rarely have anything to contribute. For me, I've found that there are some people out there who are basically conflict addicts (not pinning that handle on anyone here). If every one of the first half dozen or dozen free form communcations/conversations contain the detailing of interpersonal conflicts, I surmise odds are conflict will eventually be turned towards me. When the what and why are wrong, I avoid conflict. Alas, my undesirable traits are manifold. :lol:

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:46 am
by Crusader
Alphaville, I agree with you, I was just demonstrating the value of OKC and online dating, given the earlier conversation in this thread :)

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:59 am
by Alphaville
Crusader wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:46 am
Alphaville, I agree with you, I was just demonstrating the value of OKC and online dating, given the earlier conversation in this thread :)
yeah, i don't mean to pan those things completely. i guess i'm trying to suggest, on a philosophical basis of empiricism and anti-platonism, not to put too much trust on it.

i.e., maybe it's a useful tool to meet people, but might be useful to reduce the expectation & "matching" aspect. maybe call it "just coffee" instead of anything to do with "cupid" . :?:

and also remember always to check out the sisters, because one train may hide another train :lol:

https://poets.org/poem/one-train-may-hide-another

great poem, that one.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 am
by Crusader
Haha, believe me, my expectations are so low at this point that I don't put much trust on it. I see it as just another avenue to meet people, especially during these isolation times, and especially as I get older and more introverted.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:07 am
by jacob
@Alphaville - In Scandinavian culture raising your voice or showing anger in an argument is considered childish and a sign of lacking self-control. E.g. children will be told to stop arguing until they've managed to control their emotions in order to hash it out "like adults". This is fundamentally the behavior that everybody is raised to follow.

In other cultures, a lack of emotional display may be interpreted as not caring about the point of the argument or the person making it. However, if you ever find a Scandinavian going cold and calmer on you when arguing, you're in trouble.

In the US, I learned that just raising my voice to make my point will signal that "I really mean it".

Figure that this holds across cultures and temperaments with different set points. It's easy to make mistakes by sending the wrong signals.

Me being strategic rather than tactical, I prefer to know such things about a person in advance to avoid cultural or temperamental mistakes so I rather like the online dating apps way of putting people into boxes. It works a lot better for me than trying to figure it out on the fly which it something I'll try to do anyway insofar I don't know.

Re: An ERE dating site

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:16 am
by Alphaville
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:25 am
agree on the ground rules.
of course. for me, that goes without saying. and it requires a willingness to engage, negotiate, keep track: put in the work. if people are too lazy to work on the relationship, walk away.

my experience with passive aggressive people is one of control: they want all of it and don't like to share. narcissistic/solipsistic in their aloof heights. "do not disturb" sign. okay then.