An ERE dating site

[white belt]

I think this online vs in person dating dichotomy (false as it may be) is more reflective of generational differences and perhaps urban/rural dynamics. COVID accelerated the online dating trend just like the work from home trend. Most spaces where people used to meet potential partners haven’t been viable since March (office, bar, common interest club, classroom). It’s to the point where I don’t know a single (single) millennial who is not on dating apps (Tinder, Bumble, and Hinge are most popular). I suspect adoption is even higher for zoomers who never experienced a world without smart phones.

The consumerist culture moves towards compartmentalization, so it makes sense that dating would move towards that. At work people are focused on work, at the gym they are focused on exercise, and at a restaurant they are focused on eating with their friends. Online dating allows one to control and compartmentalize the dating aspect. There’s much less serendipity, but in my view that’s just the way the world has been moving since smartphones became ubiquitous.

Edit: I will also point out that someone’s enthusiasm for “just meet people IRL from work or social events” is in my experience directly proportional to how favorable work/social activity gender ratios are for dating. For example, a male elementary school teacher who also enjoys yoga is going to be shooting fish in a barrel. A male programmer who enjoys hunting and going to the range is going to be quite frustrated.

[7Wannabe5]

I actually had gotten the impression that you were attracted to men like that, not ithe other way around. I didn't and still don't understand it.

True and False and False. Like many women, I sometimes find some varieties of bad boy types attractive, but not always or exclusively. OTOH, it is my experience or perception that a particular variety of bad boy type is most likely to give strong indication of finding me attractive by directly asking me for a date. One of the male members of my divorce support group suggested that this is because I am like somebody with poor defense moves standing in the middle of the court dribbling a ball, so my ball will always get stolen by somebody who is fast, extroverted and aggressive.

Overly generalized. Yes I like to look at attractive people. But when I close my eyes I can't visualize them at all

I agree that like most generalizations it is only true-ish. I actually only grokked this myself after reading several books written by men with the intent of helping women understand men. One was “It’s a Guy Thing” by Deida and another was “Be Honest, You’re Not That Into Him Either” by Kerner. I think the intent was to help their female readers feel less hyper-sensitive to the “masculine gaze” but it’s possible that it may have contributed to some amateur “economic” field experimentation by a few readers of more analytical than emotional mindset.

An even more terrible example of this sort of thing would be the time I actually said “I don’t want to have to kill my own snakes.” while demurely batting my eyes at a man, based on instructions from a 1960s book on charm. The sad result of this experiment was that it worked shockingly well. In fact, I would estimate solid 85% success rate for every “move” or “practice” I have learned from charm or sexual dichotomy theory based books. And the 15% fail might mostly be due to my lack of comprehension or skill. For instance, I still don’t quite grok “exhibit your anger in a charming childlike manner which serves to emphasize rather than detract from his masculinity.” The example offered was something like “Stomp your little foot and refer to him as a big brute.” Maybe it has to do with the fact that I am 5’9”, but I just can’t see myself pulling that one off.

[7Wannabe5]

So I definitely learned that lesson, and stopped mucking with online dating!

Lol-Now I know why most men do ask me out again. My “competition “ is making me look pretty darn good as Date 4. I have heard from other men about similar experiences as your 3rd date. Apparently alcoholic females have discovered online dating as a good means of funding their addiction.

One thing I like about tinder premium and similar is you can set you location to anywhere in the world, so if you want to meet say an Italian or Scandi guy or girl just put your location in Rome or Stockholm or wherever and its game on...

That sounds like fun. I’ve never used Tinder. Are there any old people on it now? Seems like a good option for single retired snowbirds.

Edit: I will also point out that someone’s enthusiasm for “just meet people IRL from work or social events” is in my experience directly proportional to how favorable work/social activity gender ratios are for dating. For example, a male elementary school teacher who also enjoys yoga is going to be shooting fish in a barrel. A male programmer who enjoys hunting and going to the range is going to be quite frustrated.

Very true. I could make the effort to join real life groups that reflect my more stereotypically masculine interests, s opposed to yoga or knitting circle, but I see two fails with that plan. The first fail would be that I am likely to bring out my masculine energy in a masculine activity.* The second fail would be that when I am in a full-time relationship with a man, especially if living alone with him, I need for my social groups to have more feminine energy. I think this might be a reason why many relationships are falling apart during Covid. Her weekly Stitch nBitch group is essential for tolerating him being him.

*This is also why FIRE dating is unlikely to be huge success. Both parties would be focusing on masculine energy quadrant.

[white belt]

That sounds like fun. I’ve never used Tinder. Are there any old people on it now? Seems like a good option for single retired snowbirds.

There might be. On Tinder you set your age range and distance, so you will only see profiles of people that fall within those criteria if you also fall within their age/distance criteria. Then if you both swipe right, it’s a match and you can start messaging in the app. It’s probably worth a shot since it’s free and takes ~5 min to setup since you only upload a few pics and have a <400 character bio.

I find it quite convenient and have never tried any dating apps with the more involved format. I believe Tinder was originally marketed as an app that allowed matches to quickly meetup to see if there are sparks IRL, rather than doing a lengthy digital courting process. Of course some people will say it’s superficial swiping based only on pictures, but the reality is most people are not going to date someone they aren’t physically attracted to, so I think it’s actually genius.

Edit: I feel like I could run a consultant service or maybe a blog that teaches recently divorced older people how to get back in the dating game with modern tech. Perhaps you can be the spokesperson for the brand?

[jacob]

Edit: I will also point out that someone’s enthusiasm for “just meet people IRL from work or social events” is in my experience directly proportional to how favorable work/social activity gender ratios are for dating.

This!

Also, I think enthusiasm for a given method also proportional to one's autobiography in general, that is, "what worked well/terrible for me must also work well/terrible for others". This is not just influenced by ratio of "targets/competition" in the environment but also by personality, temperament, and social skills. To summarize, there's an optimal "how"-method determined not by absolute standards but by "who" is looking" as well as "where" and "what" they're looking [for].

Add: Basically the same issue as with autobiographical "investment advice"... or fitness advice for that matter.

[Alphaville]

the irl obstacles since covid are real, not just for finding someone but also for getting together, so no argument from me on that front. however it's clear that as soon as this is over meeting places are going to be *packed* with people starved for interpersonal contact.

as for this:

A male programmer who enjoys hunting and going to the range is going to be quite frustrated.

the old fashion advice would be to get off the tree house and go meet some girls where they are.

sticking with the hunting metaphor: if an app offers to help a hunter find gazelles in the north pole, how well can that work?

(im aware that current situation forces things to go online, but in normal circumstances gazelles are not in the north pole)

and social skills.

ive always tended towards solitary pursuits, but i had to force myself to develop social skills in adolescence. it wasn't always easy or fun, but it was well worth it.

i'm aware that i'm starting from biography here, but i think it's logical to say that without interpersonal skills any interpersonal relationships will be virtually impossible.

and yes, it's perhaps annoying and uncomfortable to make the effort, but it's also indispensable to be social, even if circumscribed to the domestic scale, so it's most definitely rewarding to learn and practice.

[jacob]

i'm aware that i'm starting from biography here, but i think it's logical to say that without interpersonal skills any interpersonal relationships will be virtually impossible.

Well, that's almost tautological. However, there's a difference between the "social skills" useful in meeting new people (mingling, flirting, entertaining, salesmanship, closing, small talk, ... ) and the "interpersonal skills" required to building and maintaining a relationship (sympathy, empathy, theory of mind, conflict resolution, ... ).

Regardless of how we define social/interpersonal skills, PUAs are a good example of focusing on the former while ignoring the latter. Conversely, dating apps are an easy way to reduce the need for the former while highlighting other personal strengths.

I'll posit the following:
1) Ultimately an enduring relationship depends on the latter.
2) I don't think the former and the latter skills are strongly correlated in a person.

[Alphaville]

Ultimately an enduring relationship depends on the latter.

yes! absolutely.

and further, i think the other stuff is overrated. you can connect with people without the superficial displays.

to be able to have a quiet conversation with someone while everyone else around is being loud is a social skill too.

there are a lot of introverts in public and one can find them and say hello.

Conversely, dating apps are an easy way to reduce the need for the former while highlighting other personal strengths.

is it really though? or does it just falsify in different ways? that's where i'm a doubting thomas.

[7Wannabe5]

Perhaps you can be the spokesperson for the brand?

I’m not that extroverted or photogenic*. I would be willing to contribute a semi-anonymous, semi-agony column entitled something like “The GILF’s Guide to Dating the After 50.”

*On the topic of photogenic, I am quite frequently told that I look better in person** than in my photos, so that is one reason I haven’t tried Tinder. Apparently, there are now apps that help you improve your internet photos for all sorts of purposes?

**OTOH, maybe it is better to look better in person than photos because it’s better to see a look of relief rather than disappointment on your date’s face when you meet.

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

What if you don’t really drink and you are usually tucked in bed before 9 pm, and you don’t work or go to school, and every time your friends or family tries to set you up with somebody it seems like a practical joke. One of my sisters literally set me up with a 60 year old virgin who glared at me the entire time. One of my friends set me up with a man who was 3 inches shorter and thirty lbs skinnier than me. Etc etc

[white belt]

@7WB5

I have also often been told I look better in person than in my pictures, which is slightly annoying. Certainly it’s preferred to looking worse in person than pics, but the ideal is to have your pics look exactly like you do in person.

Yes, there are various filters and apps available to improve pictures. I’m ok with maybe using some basic filters to improve the lighting of a particular photo, but I draw the line at using Facetune or airbrushing features to change them. Although I think most guys are oblivious, I’ve gotten very good at evaluating whether a picture has been touched up, so I’m hesitant if a girl looks like a super model in every picture with perfect lighting, no pores/lines, lots of makeup, etc. I think one or 2 of those pics is fine, but I also prefer to see a picture of a girl with a more natural look so I can better evaluate attractiveness (I think most guys will just assume you always look like the photoshopped/glammed up version until they meet you).

In terms of the business venture, I don’t quite understand the target customer enough to know what the ideal way is for us to reach them. Maybe figure out how to partner with divorce groups? Do people in your demographic even use social media? How do older people find dates?

[Alphaville]

What if

i can't solve everyone's particular problems-- im not a yenta.

i think it's each person's responsibility to find their "matches." they know their own situation best. they have their own eyes (and noses!)

but what i've been trying to say (or the idea i've been looking for) is... outsourcing that function to an app has to have serious limits.

i mean if it works for some people great, keep doing it. but if it doesn't, maybe time to go looking for the hotties (as you may define them) where they are.

when i wanted a girl for me i never found one through the personal ads of the new york review of books, even though i enjoyed that publication. and i never did well by fronting in clubs with the loud crowds either because i am not in principle attracted to those people.

but asking someone i saw at the library to have coffee with me did work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

[slsdly]

There is firedating.me. MMM crowd for the most part.

I am not sure whether to blame Match Group or the general populace for ruining online dating. I remember a decade ago at how good OkCupid was. You could rate questions about financial responsibility and such as very important and influence the matching algorithm to favour people who would be receptive/tolerant to ERE. It was great reading essays on how people saw their lives, things that influenced their way of thinking, book recommendations, etc.

The new world order with Tinder and its ilk ushered in the era of swiping. Online dating reduced to a game of Hot Or Not, a profile length that can fit in a single SMS, and responses based on how good your texting game is. Yawn.

There was a brief period in the golden age of online dating that favoured the misfits, but that age is passed.

Personally I wouldn't use it at all anymore. I (30s M) could get swipes based on my appearance, but most of the time there was such urgency based on meaningless conversations that I found distasteful. I agree work is fraught with danger nowadays, so I would advocate meeting people via hobbies. Ideally ones you have to commute to -- there is a lot more opportunity for conversation when everyone is on a bus for 1+ hour and confined to their seats. You can take your time, make friends, get to know people.

If you have no interest in hobbies where you have to tolerate other human beings, I think you might be okay on your own . I am very confident I will be okay if I find myself single again.

Paradoxically I think once you stop looking, it can help if you are otherwise still getting out and meeting new people. The lack of pursuit signals worthy partner at the earliest stages more so than over-eagerness and a desire to analyze things, common failings among nerds (or at least, me). Being less flexible and holding my ground on my desires (you can travel, I'll stay home and welcome you back) makes me more confident in the relationship, and probably more attractive, than actually trying to compromise (now I'm worried I'll be press ganged into the lifestyle.) Some compromises must be made, otherwise I'd be murdered, but not on ERE.

[white belt]

The new world order with Tinder and its ilk ushered in the era of swiping. Online dating reduced to a game of Hot Or Not, a profile length that can fit in a single SMS, and responses based on how good your texting game is. Yawn.

Dating has always been a game of hot or not. Sure, in person you can exhibit other traits, but physical attraction at some level is usually a pre-requisite for dating someone.

What you talk about is the whole appeal of Tinder. If I can spend a half hour swiping and messaging someone to set up an IRL coffee/drink date then I’ve only spent maybe an hour total to evaluate a potential mate (and half of that time was in person). This isn’t enough time to figure out someone’s deepest secrets, but is more just a gate to determine if here are any immediately apparent dealbreakers. From there you can schedule a 2nd date that’s more involved with activities, time, etc. I think this is preferred to spending hours surfing profiles and messaging back/forth only to find out there is something that doesn’t click when you finally meet in person. To me it is a tool to quickly get to a first in-person date because I feel IRL interaction trumps anything digital.

Here’s my strategy on Tinder: I am very direct in all communications with what I am looking for. If a match can’t handle direct/honest communication, then I already know this isn’t going to work. Ditto if what she’s looking for is much different then what I’m willing to provide. If it seems like our dating goals are in alignment, then I will set up the date that I talked about in 1st paragraph. I do this within the first 10 messages in the conversation almost always on the same day that she responds to the first message (date isn’t necessarily on the same day, but I mean we confirm a scheduled time to later meet up). Messaging back and forth for extended periods rarely works in my experience, you want to turn the initial excitement/spark into a date or move on.

Note I’m not saying Tinder is superior to other methods, just that it’s a useful tool (and maybe the only viable tool depending on your lifestyle). I think an ideal strategy would make use of both online apps and social/work connections.

[slsdly]

I wouldn't say I was looking for deepest secrets, but definitely something more to go by on than "dogs, travel, food, what else is there in life, lolz." I am not interesting in spending more than one minute scanning a profile to see if we have anything in common over. There seems to be a lot of schools of thought on "chemistry" and such, but I personally don't believe in it. There might be lust one feels early on when meeting someone new, but I find sustained desire is something I build up over time, through extended contact over time. That makes me completely incompatible with the chemistry crowd, but I don't think that means my preferences are bullshit.

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe figure out how to partner with divorce groups? Do people in your demographic even use social media? How do older people find dates?

Even my 80 year old mother uses Facebook and DoorDash My demographic is very familiar with technology, but not so familiar with the intersection of technology and dating if they’ve been coupled up or holed up for a number of years. I first used Match in 2006. I’ve also used POF and OKCupid. As I’m sure you know, if you are a reasonably attractive female, it is common to get barraged with contacts when you first open up a profile. So, I rarely keep mine open for more than a few weeks at a time, because that’s enough time to line up 7 or 8 dates, and that’s usually enough dates to find my next new BF, lover or polyamour. A couple times I’ve opened a profile and then just shut it due to overwhelm/confusion before meeting anybody I liked. Most of the men I date are older than me, but on average they are even more technologically up to date but also more likely to be clueless or frustrated with the unfamiliar social interface.

As slsdy noted, the format of internet dating keeps changing, so even if you have only been away for a few years, you still need to figure things out again. I also preferred the earlier format which required men to compose introductory “letters” rather than just using voice to text while stopped in traffic. OTOH, I absolutely agree with you that as direct as possible path to meeting in person is best practice.

I can’t speak for all older people, but within my extended social circle, I would say the two main methods for dating would either be using sites/apps to meet new people or using other forms of social media to reconnect with old flames/friends. However, just not dating at all is also quite common choice for single people in my demographic.

but asking someone i saw at the library to have coffee with me did work ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

I agree that approaching females in amenable public/social settings is a method that most young men ought to at least attempt if not master. However, not a great method for older females, because (a) rather forward and (b) his wife might come out from behind the periodical rack and slap me down.

when i wanted a girl for me

It just occurred to me that maybe the disconnect on “usefulness “ is that there was only one short period in which I was using internet dating in the attempt to find a serious monogamous relationship. Mostly I’ve used it for casual dating on the rebound. When I did use it to look for serious relationship, it worked well in the sense that I ended up engaged to one man and then “married” to another within a year, but I still didn’t filter hard enough. So, I withhold judgment on whether it could work.

[Alphaville]

However, not a great method for older females, because (a) rather forward and (b) his wife might come out from behind the periodical rack and slap me down.

i don't know, for me it's gotten easier with age to strike a casual chat with strangers over a used book or the quality of the arugula in the market or a piece of music or whatever.

again the point i am attempting to hammer here is that simply meeting people facilitates further connection-- if one choses to go further. i don't need/want to take things further but i could if i wanted. as @sldsly explains so well, it helps not to be in seeking mode/oozing desperation.

in your comedic scenario ideally you'd first be able to glean if the attractive stranger's partner is lurking in the stacks or prone to violent outbursts or if it actually exists in the first place. i mean. how hard is it to chat with people? especially if you have a local hangout and see people repeatedly?

and im no george clooney but i am frequently approached by women my age in casual, friendly fashion. it's not a big deal. they're nice to me, i'm nice back, move on.

if painful shyness is a problem, one can seek treatment. i did when i was a teenager. literally asked to be taken to a doctor. but social anxiety isn't terminal cancer. mine got better with some talking therapy and a prescription placebo. i still have the condition, i suppose, after all these decades, but i manage okay.

[white belt]

@alphaville

I get what you're saying, but that strategy only works with the prerequisite that there are attractive available partners at the places you frequent. I see virtually zero single women when I'm out and about in my day-to-day life. There are no cute strangers at the library, only married women with young children and the elderly. Every attractive woman that frequents my gym is already paired up. I've been work for home, but even pre-COVID when I went in the office I interacted with no single women (my job field is 80%+ male). Smaller cities, suburban, and rural areas are much less favorable for men interested in dating due to skewed gender ratios, because single women live in cities in much greater numbers. This is one of the reasons I almost exclusively use online dating.

I've talked about mating markets before in other threads, but it was quite apparent to see the difference when I traveled from small town/city near military base to large metropolitan area for work trips. Basically it was like my mate value increased instantly by 2 points on an arbitrary 10 point scale because I entered an environment with much more favorable single male/female ratio. I got way more attention on dating apps and in person, and it wasn't because I suddenly learned how to be more charming or approachable on the 2 hour flight. Of course some of that may also be because I am college educated and thus am mostly looking for and appeal to college educated women, who again congregate in cities because that's where the jobs are.

[Alphaville]

I get what you're saying

i get what you're saying too: there are no gazelles in the north pole. i get that.

when my wife and i did the cabin thing there was a nearby town we'd drive to for attempts at a social life. tldr we both agreed being single there would have been HELL.finding friends was already difficult.

i know this sounds stupid obvious, but maybe find a mate first, and then take her to your fortress of solitude later?

also if you can't live in a city, looks to me your gym might be a reasonably fertile ground. im not saying hit on the married women, but by befriending people there, maybe they introduce you to the cute sister who goes to yoga instead of the gym? this again goes towards just meeting people rather than actively looking for a mate.

anyway, i understand the situation. and if online works for you then all of this doesn't matter.

but should that not pan out--consider finding the gazelles where they are, if you can, rather than hoping they show up where you are at the north pole?

afaik even the military has balls.
https://blog.militarybyowner.com/hs-fs/ ... 20ball.jpg
^there's an unpaired girl in that photo

[Jin+Guice]

Sorry I'm late to the party y'all.

Online dating is great. Dating online only widens your horizons. To my knowledge, it hasn't stopped drunken strangers from groping each other in the bar bathroom, only expanded the groping possibilities frontier. It biases those who are good at photography and those who are better at text than talking. Different apps (much like different venues), have different demographics and learning which one is more likely to contain the individuals you are seeking is important to success. IME, online dating fragmented the dating world so that hitting on strangers IRL is easier, because it's become more of a bold/ unexpected move.

OKCupid isn't dead, it's just where the freaks is at.