An ERE dating site

[7Wannabe5]

my observation is that you tend to flee the problem by platonizing up a storm rather than tackle it.

No. I do tackle it. I express myself very clearly and repeatedly. “Platonizing up a storm”, as you describe it, is one thing I do that helps me be tough enough to pull the bandaid on a failed relationship. My temperament is sunny with occasional afternoon showers. Rational is often as close as I can get to angry in order to get the needful deed done.

[Crusader]

@Alphaville
Values is a big part of it, but not all. I don't think I would like someone who is religiously into watching sports, just because that kind of stuff bores me. Or techno music. But this has nothing to do with my values. I guess how you choose time to spend on hobbies is what also matters, and maybe other things. How open are you with your feelings? How important is physical intimacy? etc etc I am not sure I would call these my "values" as I would call them preferences, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you call them.

@7Wannabe5
Well, then I am screwed. Historically I've desired women who are very different to myself, and/or physically way out of my league. But, I am well aware that I am messed up, and when I quote science research, I am talking about successful relationships

[Alphaville]

No. I do tackle it. I express myself very clearly and repeatedly. “Platonizing up a storm”, as you describe it, is one thing I do that helps me be tough enough to pull the bandaid on a failed relationship. My temperament is sunny with occasional afternoon showers. Rational is often as close as I can get to angry in order to get the needful deed done.

ah! i'm relieved to hear it. honestly, i feel sad when i think of you trapped there. how feminine of me! lol. but seriously. i do.

also...

[Alphaville]

but now and then a dog with a bone comes to mind...

ah yeah i am militant about that

[ZAFCorrection]

It just irks me a little that seemingly every discussion in which models like this, MBTI, Kegan, or the functions @daylen enjoyes, ends in quibbling about the utility/credibility/sense of using mental models.

The social sciences themselves (I assume the source of crusader's forthcoming evidence) have a nice long history of ginning up questionable science in the service of whatever fad has caught their interest (see: replication crisis). More charitably, doing that kind of research in a way that can be generalized is hard.

In that case quibbling about the credibility is along the lines of saying my witch doctor has a shadier looking shack than yours.

[Alphaville]

I don't think I would like someone who is religiously into watching sports, just because that kind of stuff bores me. Or techno music. But this has nothing to do with my values. I guess how you choose time to spend on hobbies is what also matters, and maybe other things.

ok if that is the case, maybe, i'll respectfully say... maybe you're being to controlling?

there is nobody out there who is going to match your every wish. pygmalion is therefore just a myth. yes, you can design a perfect piece of code, but you can't design a person to your specifications. you'll never find them.

this goes toward what i was saying about online questionnares creating biases towards fulfilling expectations. but you can't "find" a relationship, you have to create it, with work, and that means also working on yourself.

in a real relationship with a real person there has to be space for difference and individuality. otherwise you destroy the other person. so you have to work on your ability to accept the "other" as another, rather than trying to mold them to your wishes.

my wife has a number of funny /absurd hobbies and preferences that are a little silly to me, but in time i have learned not only to tolerate them, but to enjoy some of them, and above all to appreciate that this is part of what makes her who she is.

like i said before, i would never have met her from a list--but she's become my favorite person in the world.

and besides, if she had been made exactly according to my preexisting wishes, she would have contributed nothing to my life, i would have been stuck in a bubble.

so, i'm glad for her quirks, and all the surprises, and the way she has expanded my horizons, and all the work that we have put into making this thing work is so well worth it.

so, i hope this was not annoying to read, but yeah, one has to "make space" for another in one's life.

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

I agree that righteous anger can be a way of expressing love for yourself or vulnerable others, but there are other ways to do it too. For instance, simply taking very good care of yourself can form an effective boundary. Tolerating the company of a man with whom I’ve come to agreement that we are incompatible just seems more like sensible self-care than doing something anger-driven and potentially risky and/or very expensive until after I am vaccinated. I did order a new 99% effective mask with filters in order to improve my options. I also cashed out a bunch of equity yesterday, so I can move on purchase if/when right property for my next domicile becomes available. I am obviously quite capable of flouncing out in a huff, but that’s not going to work very well if I haven’t organized my next steps in alignment with maximizing self-aware self-care and happiness.

[Crusader]

I would say that I did have a problem with being controlling in the past. Not in the sense that I would tell people what to do, but that I would sulk when they would do something I don't approve of. But, my feelings of dissatisfaction were definitely real, and I think they have nothing to do with the other person, they have everything to do with anger towards myself for not being brave enough to end the relationship, if I didn't respect them.

It sounds to me like you are being defensive towards your wife. If she has a silly hobby, you don't have to pretend to like or respect it. Or that it brings value to you just because it's different. But hey, if it works for you, great. It never did for me. I just couldn't take the cognitive dissonance.

Well, it is quite possible that I will never find a person I can tolerate, but for me, the answer is, I think: learn to be alone and OK with it, rather than delude myself that I am tolerant and OK with certain things. And if this changes over time, then so be it!

[jacob]

IOW, the clash of formidable 5,10, 30 year plans is inevitable.

Yes, but ... the clash between a 30 year plan and a "YOLO"-plan or the "no-plan"-plan can be even greater. Many journals describe the so-called "spousal-problem" which happens when the Wheaton gap is large (3+ levels). Since FIRE permeates so many aspects of one's way of living(*), it seems helpful if they were at least somewhat lined up as opposed to not at all. It's easier to reconcile a WL5-15 year plan with a WL6-10 year plan that it is ditto with a WL0-never plan.

(*) I think value differences here could be more material than e.g. differences in faith (as described above). The goal of someone who wants to spend their life on travel adventures vs someone who wants to spend a life working and buying stuff for their home are about as incompatible as when the respective difference in sex quantity/quality exceed an order of magnitude.

There are fewer conflicts to navigate when objectives and values are at least somewhat lined up. I would say in general that it's more important to select for partners who are good at resolving and reconciling differences---or even appreciating them---than it is to select for the perfect math. In short, selecting for people who are competent at developing relationships rather than the perfect person. It's a more robust strategy.

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe we could all read Peter Kramer’s “ Should You Leave?: A Psychiatrist Explores Intimacy and Autonomy-And the Nature of Advice” as book group? It’s a bit dated, but generally regarded as excellent, and it came to mind because I believe that he explores the question making use of different theories or models of therapy in each chapter. It’s been on my list for a long time.

[7Wannabe5]

Yes, but ... the clash between a 30 year plan and a "YOLO"-plan or the "no-plan"-plan can be even greater.

Well, I’m not really a FIRE person myself, so my perspective might be a bit off. However, I fought about money matters a lot less with my absolutely clueless about financial matters Bohemian musician type first husband than my Millionaire Next Door engineer type second “husband.” So, I tend to think that some FIRE type might do okay with low spend Bohemian types, if they are able to meet their own savings level psychological security needs on their own. OTOH, it might drive them crazy.

The goal of someone who wants to spend their life on travel adventures vs someone who wants to spend a life working and buying stuff for their home are about as incompatible as when the respective difference in sex quantity/quality exceed an order of magnitude.

I agree. I often think that significant relationships would go better if couples actually wrote down joint mission statements. Except for the fact that at one point she literally went insane, my business partnership with my sister was for the most part a great success according to our standards because we did have a clear mission statement inclusive of clear exit clause.

Another thing I have learned is that in most dealings which party proffers the contract is a not insignificant factor. Therefore, the fact that proffer of date for the evening up to marriage proposal is still for the most part male prerogative in our culture is a huge gender divide issue. And retention of this prerogative combined with otherwise egalitarian contact terms amounts to likelihood of rip-off for many females.

In short, selecting for people who are competent at developing relationships rather than the perfect person. It's a more robust strategy.

Yup. Kind of like the fishing pole vs the fish.

[Alphaville]

simply taking very good care of yourself can form an effective boundary.

that is excellent news, and i'm so glad to see you moving forward. not that you need anyone's approval, but i'm glad regardless.

im for rational action of course, but i think that theories must be applicable to the object of study. also, it's also possible to be rational without a theory, i.e. by testing and tinkering and such. as you remember from the scientific method (and permaculture does the same) everything starts from observation. you can hypothesize and test without rushing to theory. you can be successful without theory. on the other hand the wrong theory when assumed apriori can easily lead one astray.

as for the multiple psychology theories book you mention, it sounds great, but i can't manage to add anything else to my reading list right now. nevertheless, there seems to be something very valuable in that premise, in that different situations require different applications, which--yes. all models have their limits.

[Alphaville]

It sounds to me like you are being defensive towards your wife. If she has a silly hobby, you don't have to pretend to like or respect it. Or that it brings value to you just because it's different. But hey, if it works for you, great. It never did for me. I just couldn't take the cognitive dissonance.

i understand where you 're coming from, but it doesn't work that way. the acceptance comes after the fact. that is part of what "love" is. some of that is in the middle of the lyrics of that funny song you posted in the @b&g journal, in fact. i listened to it and laughed because... a lot of what he says is true. the love is in the doing not so much in the particular "you".

so yes, i love her just like she is, "warts and all" as they say. and it's not... i don't know how to explain if you're not there yet.

ok here's an example. you were born in serbia, yes? i don't know when you moved to canada, but let's assume that you do that once you have your serbian identity. maybe you were 7 or 10 or 15 or whatever (doesn't matter precisely).

now you're in canada,--weird country! and, say, you go to tim hortons and you're like "wtf is this shit! this doesn't hold a candle to orasnice!"

but after 20 or 30 years, you've become a canadian, your life is there, and it's great, and now tim hortons is the taste of canada! and you know, it's not maybe the best thing about canada, but if someone offers you some timbits you say thanks! and eat some and have a chuckle with your watery coffee.

it doesn't have to be your favorite thing, but it's a part of a whole. and maybe you can love it even if you don't like-it like-it. it's no longer a matter of "taste" or "preference." and if you end up one day exiled, maybe you shed a little tear for silly timbits and watery coffee which you can't have again.

ok if not that let's resort to shakespeare then
https://poets.org/poem/my-mistress-eyes ... sonnet-130

[7Wannabe5]

im for rational action of course, but i think that theories must be applicable to the object of study. also, it's also possible to be rational without a theory, i.e. by testing and tinkering and such. as you remember from the scientific method (and permaculture does the same) everything starts from observation. you can hypothesize and test without rushing to theory. you can be successful without theory. on the other hand the wrong theory when assumed apriori can easily lead one astray.

True, but I would note that permaculture does include a large set of design principles and practices of which “observation” is only the critical first (although cyclically revisited.) Actually, my first attempt to apply permaculture philosophy to relationship building was my experiment with polyamory, because one of the principles of designing for resilience is to have more than one way ( at least 3) to provide yourself/system with any important stock or flow. It was a lot of work and kind of confusing, but it was very fun while it lasted (sigh.) Honestly, I think maybe I would prefer it to marriage if I could get it to work.

Anyways, I am going to take your advice and sign up for Bumble and practice asking and taking men out on dates. I will start doing it in person too after I am vaccinated. Unfortunately, I think my pick up style might end up being a little bit like middle aged female version of Howard Wilowitz but you gotta start some place. “If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?” “Hey, baby, you got any burger to go with that shake?”, or I could maybe take it up a notch for the more literate possibilities. Maybe something more like “Forsooth, dear lord, be that an aubergine within thy codpiece else rejoicest thou but for to gaze upon my likeness?!!”

[Alphaville]

Forsooth

haaahaaahaaaa! i think your sense of humor is one of your best traits. if they don't get it, it's their loss.

[IlliniDave]

... learn to be alone and OK with it, rather than delude myself that I am tolerant and OK with certain things. And if this changes over time, then so be it!

This is where I've been parked for quite some time. And the opposite is part of it too--finding someone who will tolerate me, I'm not exactly the perfect catch by any stretch of the imagination. But trying to kid oneself that not okay is okay tends to lead to misery. Maybe I'll change my views on some things some day. For now there are some things I have to do for my own sake. I'm not dead set against company on the journey but the journey must be made.

[Crusader]

It's also important to not delude yourself (at least in my case) that you are better off being single. I would never prefer being without romantic connections over having at least some romance in my life, maybe not necessarily in the traditional monogamous sense. But, in my case, I have been SO focused on finding the right person (who satisfies my list of criteria) that I think that for *myself*, good advice would be to just learn that it is *truly* OK to not be in a relationship, over being in a shitty relationship. I know, I know, a great relationship is something you build, but still.

I know what you mean. My last ex ticked every box on my list: atheist, very close to me on the political spectrum, she even was of native Serbian origin so we could speak in my mother-tongue, had a reasonably good job (she was a nurse), but wasn't a workaholic, definitely wasn't too much into money or class... BUT... we were a terrible match romantically (I'll spare you the details). By the end of it, I couldn't stand her.

Meanwhile, I have some friends that I "love", even though they say/believe some idiotic stuff. But, I only get to hang out with them in limited quantities, I don't know if I would be able to stand them 24/7.

I think that the biggest takeaway from all my dating mistakes has been... listen to your gut feeling and allow the test of time to do its thing. Maybe ask myself every day "do I want to spend time with this person?" and be honest with my answer and then do it.

[IlliniDave]

It's also important to not delude yourself (at least in my case) that you are better off being single.

I'd agree with that, it's best to be open to all possibilities. One thing that might be different in our respective outlooks (maybe) is that I was married for a pretty good length of time once in the past so if it turns out I remain mostly unattached going forward, I won't feel like I missed out on some experience completely.

[Crusader]

I feel the same about relationships as you do with marriage. Been there, done that. But, I like women too much for me to swear off them completely, I just think that I need to learn how to not get carried away and make promises (to myself first) that I cannot keep. I do hope that with this shift in perspective, some woman comes along who will make it impossible for me NOT to commit to her. I haven't been in (requited) love for a long time.

[7Wannabe5]

This reminds me of the more general systems conflict between efficiency and resilience. If you increase “tolerance” you decrease efficiency but you increase resilience.

This morning a grouchy old man made me a piece of toast with jelly to eat with my coffee. I took my toast plate to the kitchen, gave it a quick rinse, and placed it in the dishwasher. Then the wrath of “intolerance” came down upon me, and the grouchy old man grouchily snatched the plate from the dishwasher and put it back on the counter, saying “What the hell are you doing?”, because I had forgotten his new rule of execution regarding the disposition of dishes that only had crumbs on them. Since, I am already resolved to no longer reside with him as soon as I am either vaccinated or have taken possession of cash purchases residence, I chose to ignore this incidence of such behavior, but my word of advice to those who think they can tightly engineer the behavior of other humans to their liking is that they are likely to find themselves increasingly alone, because it is not just the case that easy-going others who try to even be “tolerant of intolerance “ will leave them, but as they get older, they will find that the world itself will change in many ways which will make them feel uncomfortable and out of sphere of control. As long as the sun keeps shining, the feminine force of life and chaos will forever rise abundant over the narrow plans of man.