Responsibility for Parents

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Responsibility for Parents

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I know there's been other threads on this. I'm starting a new one.

My parents have never saved any money as far as I can tell. Now they're too old to find work. It is falling on me to take care of them.

I had a very uncomfortable conversation with my mom last night where I diplomatically (I thought) suggested some ways to spend less money. She tearfully accused me of trying to control how she lives, and said if I sent her any money she'd just tear up the check.

I'm torn between feeling like a selfish asshole and feeling pissed that they feel entitled to my help in paying for them to continue living beyond their means.

What's the right way to handle this?

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by IlliniDave »

Have they asked for money, or are you just anticipating a possible future need?

There's no one-size-fits-all right answer.

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by GandK »

IlliniDave is right. This is probably more complicated than we can see. But based only on what you said above, I would:

1. Decide how much you are willing to give them.
2. Tell them, when and if it becomes necessary, "This is what I can give you."
3. Hold the line. Most people live on what's available. If less is available, they'll live on less.

Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by Dragline »

That's about right. But you do need to get them to start liquidating any large assets and downsizing.

We bought my parents' house from them and paid them with an annuity for it. But mine are a lot older than yours I think.

Its really difficult to start having these conversations until they actually ask for money. Which is usually after they have blown through whatever liquid assets they had.

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2791
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by Sclass »

Agree with others. She's not ready yet.

I get it, you see the future and you want to start doing damage control. But that isn't the way it works. It isn't a perfect world.

George the original one
Posts: 5404
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by George the original one »

On the preparation side, do you know if they have debt and how much? Are they behind in any payments, even utilities or insurance premiums? If you don't know their finances, then try to find out without getting into the other issues.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by BRUTE »

if he's willing/able to subsidize his parental units, maybe ThisDinosaur could start secretly saving money for them now? if/when they need it in 5 years, it'll be planned for.

User avatar
fiby41
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:09 am
Location: India
Contact:

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by fiby41 »


ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by ThisDinosaur »

More info:
Mom is almost 60 and works in a tech field. Dad has been "retired" since he was fired 3 years ago for taking too long to recover from knee surgery. My mom has been doing mostly contract work for the last few years, being employed about half the time. She worked at a grocery store for a while, too. Dad is on Soc Sec. When my mom started her last contract work a year ago, my dad *immediately* leased a sports car. They gave their paid-off car to my little brother, who is living with them until he finishes school in 18months. So they are three cars in a three person household. They have several television sets and PCs. They have the latest iPad. They also have tons of credit card debt and six figures left on the mortgage.

I finally convinced them to sell the house and downsize, but they won't go lower than 2 bed 2 bath. They refuse to share a bathroom and my dad "needs" a man cave. Which would be fine, if they could afford it. But they can't.

So when my mom asked for some money, I agreed. But I also figured it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to suggest they go for the 1 bed 1 bath to save a good amount on purchase price and a mild amount on HOA dues n such.

scriptbunny is probably right about her being stressed and emotional about their situation. But I've got plans for my money. I'm at least 2 to 3 years away from reaching 28x planned post-FI expenses. I was planning on putting some more money toward's my kids college funds if I can still tolerate work at that time. If I have to start supporting two more people, that delays all of my plans indefinitely. Especially if I have zero say in their COL.

Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by Dragline »

I would not give them any money in these circumstances. And I probably would avoid discussing it with them. The mantra, "Sorry, I'm not a bank" comes to mind. If they want to pretend they are doing fine, you can pretend with them for awhile. I get the feeling that your parents don't discuss this with each other (i.e., your dad may not know that your mom is asking you for money), which may be at the root of the problem.

Your dad is a complete financial disaster. They may be looking at bankruptcy at some point, which actually might not be a bad thing in their case because it would clear their credit card debt and cut off their access to more credit.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

General rule of thumb is don't take responsibility where you don't have authority. Black hole suck. OTOH, you could do something like I did in the fiddly years when my kid were nominally adult, but not yet completely independent, which was to establish a set expense category.

OTOH, since I am generally a younger soul type than both of my adult children, I already have inklings of a day that might come when my XNtJ daughter will contact my INTP son through some communication device of the future and the conversation will go something like:

DD: Nico just called to tell me that he found Mom lying naked in the snow on the path to that dangerous sauna Hank built for her before he died.

DS: Who's Nico?

DD: You know that young guy who helps her sometimes. He was there at Christmas.

DS: Oh, yeah. No worries. I think Nico has probably already seen Mom naked.

DD:( Aaaaargh! Why am I always the child who has to be responsible?!) That is not the point! She was in the snow and could not get up. What are we going to do about this?!

DS: Dunno. Why don't you figure it out and I'll tell Julie to xfer half of whatever it ends up costing to you. But, I don't know if Mom ever even spends the money I xfer to her account.

DD: Hello. You are talking about the woman who fed us muffins baked from oatmeal she bought at a rural food auction and stored in a garbage can. What do you think?

DS: Yeah. Do you think she will be up to making that corned beef I like on St. Patrick's Day?

DD: (tearing hair out) Never mind! (Hangs up phone. Commences to construct well-meant plan to relieve her flakey mother of the burden of authority over self.)

User avatar
Sclass
Posts: 2791
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by Sclass »

Ok. This sounds like a wild emotional roller coaster ride. On one hand mom says she'll tear up any checks you send and on the other she asks for money. You are not dealing with rational adults. Dragline is pretty cold but I think he's right. You may want to say no.

I've had this situation come up with a few friends. It would not have helped to give them a handout. It would have made things worse. They needed money to continue their bad habits. They had no intention of changing their path. So I said no. At that point the friend's wife started begging. One of my mentors (also propositioned for a loan) told me to say no and avoid them till they sold their home in and their office building before I step in.

Basically the strategy was to let them hit rock bottom and then scrape them off the street and rescue them when they'd be grateful for a room in our house and something to eat. However, had we stepped in while their sinking business and loans were sucking boatloads of money out of them we'd just damage ourselves to keep them going. So I stood by and watched them burn. The home was sold as was the office. The business shuttered. What I didn't predict was my friend came down with a degenerative brain disease and died in a year. It was something like Mad Cow. Since he was the business things just collapsed.

His widow is still pissed at me. I don't explain to her how I'd have lost a fortune if I'd propped up their business and her husband had died. I wasn't planning on things going this way but it's all worked out. The Widow has a govt pension and lives well now.

That's the long sclass way of saying your folks aren't ready yet. You're not rich enough to support them. I'm not your accountant but I'd guess you cannot pay for their retirement as well as your own on their terms. It's dreaming. Just say no.

After all it is your money. You get to dictate the terms. He who has the gold makes the rules. 7W said it well. You don't want to take responsibility where you don't have authority. Consider yourself a venture capitalist. You need to control your senior executives.

Sadly I'm facing two more scenarios where friends are about to spin out. Same procedure. Step back. Wait for blast. Return to rescue survivors.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by ThisDinosaur »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:17 am
General rule of thumb is don't take responsibility where you don't have authority. Black hole suck.
Holy shit, 7, that is Ben Franklin-level wise. Now what am I supposed to do about the crushing guilt of letting my stubborn aging parents starve while I'm still able-bodied and employed?
Dragline wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:40 am
And I probably would avoid discussing it with them. The mantra, "Sorry, I'm not a bank" comes to mind. If they want to pretend they are doing fine, you can pretend with them for awhile.
They are definitely not pretending. And not discussing it would entail never talking to them. You can't ask "how are you?" and ignore "I'll be out of money in six weeks, no one will hire me, your father is drinking/taking his pain pills again, and I have permanent neurological side effects from an antidepressant I took last year."

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by IlliniDave »

That sounds like a really difficult situation. As hard as it seems I tend to agree with the general consensus that if they are not ready to change their lifestyle at this time, giving them money is not much different than driving down the interstate throwing $20-bills out the window. If you can afford to do that and it's something you want to do, that's perfectly acceptable. Otherwise, you probably don't want to add financial risk to your future when there's no real indication your parents are striving for a better outcome.

Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by Dragline »

I agree with Sclass -- this movie is an old one and while it has many variations, the plot is essentially the same. Your mother sounds very manipulative actually -- complaining that life is going down the toilet one day and then claiming she'll "tear up your checks" on another. You should recognize that this is ridiculous high melodrama. Not talking to them for periods of time, or refusing to talk about money other to say, "I'm sorry about that, Mom" might actually be a good thing for both you and them.

Guilt driven actions will not fix either their problems or yours -- 7w5 is absolutely correct on the approach.

And don't think I'm heartless -- I support my parents and am happy to do it, but only on my own terms and without the drama or the manipulation. But I don't do it out of guilt -- i.e., to "stop feeling bad" about it. I do it because I feel good about it and its within our means. And they express gratitude for it. So its honor-driven win-win, not guilt and manipulation driven lose-lose. You are just not there yet -- that can only come later in Sclass's movie.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 997
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Well thanks, all, for saying exactly what I wanted to hear. You know, about me being right. Hording all my money like Gollum.

Yes, my old lady is manipulative, melodramatic, histrionic, etc. This is probably overly-Freudian, but I blame their shitty money handling skills for my cheapness. If they had read YMOYL and took it to heart, maybe I wouldn't be an EREer. I'd be a well adjusted consumer, instead.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur:

Admittedly, my advice was at Optimization Wheaton Level, not Systems Wheaton Level. But, unfortunately, I have a good deal of experience in this realm due to having to deal with mentally ill loved ones. Try dealing a time or ten with believable threat of suicide, manic rampage or paranoid delusions featuring you as the villain, and sitting on the sidelines while a relative goes bankrupt will become a cakewalk. Worst case scenario will be you might suffer some moderate level of social shaming.

That said, you could take a whirl at applying higher level analysis to the system. The indications are that your parents aren't exactly functioning as a solid team these-a-days. That might be why your mother became a bit hysterical at the suggestion of only 1 bedroom. Where does your father drive in his sports car? What does he do in his man-cave? You could offer to help support your mother and brother until he graduates on the condition that your Dad either gets a job and stops dropping money at the strip club or moves out.

brighteye
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:02 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by brighteye »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:17 am
General rule of thumb is don't take responsibility where you don't have authority.
7w5, I love this! Wrote it down immediately and will take it to heart.

vexed87
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:02 am
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by vexed87 »

I would consider helping out, but only when your parents demonstrate some willing to take steps to address the mess they have made for themselves. It sounds like they are on course for a financial crisis, when crisis arrives, that would be a good time to introduce them to some Dave Ramsey, I dont think they are quite ready for YMOYL. It sounds like they are in some serious need of financial baby steps. As other's have said, providing financial aid right now will enable your family to kick the can a little longer. Liken it to an economic collapse, the longer the show goes on, the more painful the inevitable fall will be. I reckon in the meantime, emotional support is the best you can do if you hope for better financial health for them.
Last edited by vexed87 on Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Responsibility for Parents

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur:

My last post was a bit rude. I apologize. I am currently dealing with the fact that one of my sisters has been teetering on the edge of requiring commitment for severe mental health problem, and my father is dead, my mother is aging and bi-polar 2, and my two youngest sisters who live further away are doing their very best to avoid involvement in the situation. So, I am wallowing a bit in self-pity mode myself.

Anyways, it's important to note that "Never establish authority" does not necessarily follow from "Don't take responsibility where you don't have authority." It's also important to note that it is only necessary to share this rule of thumb with people who have entirely accepted the premise "You should take responsibility where you exert authority." and are tending towards erring on the side of being "too good" rather than "too villainous."

I believe the fact that most adult moral humans in our culture do accept this premise becomes very obvious when you deconstruct communication meant as "advisory information" vs "instruction from assumed position of leadership", but YMMV ;)

Post Reply