Marriage Trends

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
classical_Liberal
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by classical_Liberal »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@classical_Liberal:

Well, I would note that what Harry Browne might have discovered is that even if you can't imagine a woman who could offer so much value in relationship that you would find it beneficial go so far as to throw down for a ring to sweeten the pot, that doesn't mean that she doesn't exist.

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fiby41
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Re: Marriage Trends

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Dragline
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by Dragline »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:00 am
@classical_Liberal:

Well, I would note that what Harry Browne might have discovered is that even if you can't imagine a woman who could offer so much value in relationship that you would find it beneficial go so far as to throw down for a ring to sweeten the pot, that doesn't mean that she doesn't exist.
Much of HIFFIAUW seemed to me to to be an apologia (that means explanation, not apology) about Browne's then-recent divorce from his first wife and dysfunctional relationship with his then young child. Years later when he remarried and patched up things with his daughter he admitted that many of the things he wrote at that time about family relationships were in error.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by classical_Liberal »

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TopHatFox
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by TopHatFox »

fiby41 wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:39 am

Why marriage is a scam
Ding ding ding!

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Ego
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by Ego »

Hat tip to both Tyler Cowen and David Brooks, The All-or-Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work.

https://www.amazon.com/All-Nothing-Marr ... 052595516X

Brooks's column is excellent, contrasting the two models of human development.

The book was just released so I have not yet read it but I like the premise. As Seligman pointed out in one of his books, experts spend most of their time and energy studying the failures, the sick, the problems.... when what we ought to be doing is studying those who are extremely successful to figure out what they are doing right, then teach people how to replicate it.

A quote from the study on which the book is based:

As we have increasingly come to look to our marriages to help us achieve our deepest psychological needs—rather than helping us harvest crops or even just loving us, for example—we need much stronger communication and responsiveness than ever before. More and more marriages are struggling to achieve those lofty standards, especially on top of all of the other stresses in our lives.

However, those of us who succeed in building a marriage that can meet our deepest psychological needs—a marriage that helps us become closer to our ideal self—are immensely satisfying. That is, achieving a successful marriage today is tougher than in the past, while at the same time the payoff for such achievement is larger than in the past.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I ran into my DS28 at the bus depot yesterday. He told me that my ex-husband, his father, had recently been institutionalized (again) due to suicidal depression. By happenstance, just that morning I found myself walking through the neighborhood in which we had lived when we were first married almost 30 years ago. Our marriage vows were very modern and egalitarian, and inclusive of "support for each other's development as individuals."

So, the above strikes me as very Pollyanna-ish. Or, maybe more like "True, but so what?" The average relationship starts breaking apart after only 3 months of the stress of significantly uneven development or power disequilibrium. I agree that "going all in" and striving for self-awareness is key to performing better than average in this regard, but it still doesn't speak to the reality that oftentimes disequilibrium is not just a cycle that both partners would benefit by riding though, but rather a continuing trend that will find you standing in a bus depot 10 years after your divorce, not knowing how to properly name the emotion you are feeling, or not wanting to admit to what extent it consists of feeling lucky to no longer be significantly yoked in functioning with somebody you once loved.

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Ego
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:16 pm
He told me that my ex-husband, his father, had recently been institutionalized (again) due to suicidal depression.

.... feeling lucky to no longer be significantly yoked in functioning with somebody you once loved.
That's a good point. WHO I yoke myself to is as important as HOW I yoke myself to them. Maybe more important?

He seems to be doing a lot of work on the "who" problem as well. Interesting stuff on machine learning and dating. Look for non-conscious synchrony. You'll like the part about language style matching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS3vBYRYOCw

7Wannabe5
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego wrote:You'll like the part about language style matching.
I watched the video and skimmed the associated paper. Then I attempted to analyze text conversations with my BF based on this research. However, I can't tell whether my relative lack of personal pronoun use is indicative of incompatibility or just poor thumb-typing skills. Also, he frequently uses voice-to-text . IRL, we have an easy time talking with each other, but I have difficulty getting along with him sometimes because he is super-grouchy about the proper way to do things. He says he might end up a lonely old man with a model train collection, and I think he might be right. So, we are compatible in our agreement on this point.

ETA: Seriously, I think the suggested implementation is a bit too geeky and far-fetched. One of the reasons being that even live video-dating does not make a man seem like he is full-size and sitting across a booth from you. I think that is why the very simple dating apps like Tinder are proving increasingly popular. Just enough functionality to make arranging to meet in person sooner rather than later might be ideal. When I first engaged in online dating, I made the mistake of entering into long exchanges of written communication before actually meeting in person with quite horrifying results.

Also, I think the ability to get into synch with anybody in a dating context might be more than a bit of a learned skill. The difference in quality of conversations or simple interactions I have had over coffee or dinner with men I dated in middle-age vs. boys I dated when I was young has been striking. The balance tipped more towards "Where have you been?" rather than "Where are you going?" , and decades of conversations in adult contexts such as job interviews, PTO meetings, directing scuba class, co-operating in cubicles, negotiating for car leases, and all the times we have been around the block in other relationships behind us. IOW, I think the ability to behave or converse in a manner that is pleasant, interested/interesting and affirmative for a period of time, but then make a decision based on other factors is a function of social maturity. People who consciously or unconsciously exhibit a good deal of off-putting behavior if/when they aren't instantly thoroughly attracted to another person will likely not enjoy the process of dating. I sometimes think that the reason why many people stick with unsatisfactory relationships or unsatisfactory work is that they are more put off by the tasks of dating or interviewing.

The modern reality, due to the internet, is such that as a reasonably attractive single woman, I am never more than a week out from spending an enjoyable evening in recreational companionship with a reasonably attractive male peer or even 24 hours out from having sex delivered to me like a free pizza. When I divorced my ex, my final statement was "Regular engagement in sex, social dates, and joint projects or I am done." I am currently engaged in one major project with an ex-lover, another major project and affectionate-cuddly-recreational-social-dating relationship with my BF (who has never been particularly interested in me sexually), and I am free to make arrangements to meet a 41 year old with an 8-pack to discuss the possibility of sexual interaction over coffee next week. I will concede that this sometimes seems more like "confusing mess" than "functional resilient system", but much more happiness-making for me than being locked into a miserable marriage.

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conwy
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Re: Marriage Trends

Post by conwy »

Personally I've just never felt the need.

There was some very mild pressure from my family earlier on, but when it became clear to them that I wasn't going to bend, they stopped trying. People I know generally (relatives, friends, workmates, etc) rarely, if ever, have asked.

I don't see the need, other people don't see the need. Whose interests would it serve?

Women aren't particularly interested in me (or if they occasionally are, I'm hopeless at "reading the signals").

And I enjoy my own company enough to not need to be around someone.

Actually, I'd say my work relationships are really the core of my life and my identity. Those are the people I spend time with and around. Those are the people I struggle and celebrate with. I really think work has taken the place of a relationship in my life.

I can fully understand why marriage is becoming a middle-class and upper-class thing. Those of us who have to get up and work every day to save for a retirement (because the government can't be trusted to help us out in old age) simply don't have the time/money for marriage, let alone the enormous cost of children.

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