How to deal with artists and creatives?

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Olaz
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How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Olaz » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:32 pm

Not sure how to phrase this, but, I have met some artist people and creatives before, and I admit, many of their ideas and principles rub me the wrong way in a fairly core way. For instance, I've noticed that their rooms tend to be disheveled, sometimes unclean, and lined with all sorts of art simply because that is the way art is best expressed (I have no problem with their dirty room in itself, it's there's after all). Also, from what I've heard, their perception of planning, especially with money, is that it should not be done because it takes away from the moment, and who knows what life will bring (one is even having children while at 26, with debt, and while taking care of her now older parents financially). Even asking verbally for consent in sexual or relationship matters is not always considered best according to these people, because it again takes away from the moment and can create a strict narrative toward increasing physical connection, such as sex (in other words, rather than asking 'can I put my arm around your shoulder" and possibly starting an explicit train towards greater physical connection, one should trust that the other person will speak up non-verbally if they don't want the arm around the shoulder).

I have some pretty serious contempt with all of the above. It's very possible to create art without being disorganized. Planning can be useful to create a greater sense of freedom to dedicate to art or other pursuits. Financial Independence is worth pursuing for this very reason, and it does *not* take a lifetime. In fact, the reality is that many of these people have a room to practice their art in and food to eat from the return of the endowment, which is very meticulously planned out. Finally, since most women in the West and especially East are generally socialized to accept what is happening rather than speaking up about their needs, not asking verbally about an advance--and not asking verbally what they might want from the connection at an appropriate time--can lead to discomfort, fallout, and even unintended sexual disrespect.

/Rant

------------------------------

Is this just a feeling-rational with a 10-year guideline coming up against "flowy-artsy-fartsy" people and reaction strongly? Is there something of substance to their life philosophy? Or what? How do these people deal with the bills, expectations, and daily requirements (e.g. food, shelter) of living in a market economy? Do they?
Last edited by Olaz on Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: How to deal with artists and "intuitives"?

Post by daylen » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:51 pm

I don't really plan. I think about and consider possibilities, but I hold off making decisions until I absolutely need to. This maximizes future possibilities while also giving me the satisfaction of reacting and responding to change.

For me personally, the uncertainty in life is what I enjoy. Adapting to an ever changing environment with endless variables (life) poses a continuously rewarding challenge. Planning reduces dimensionally, fixes variables, and ultimately makes life more predictable (..and in my opinion, not as fun).

As far as smaller detail is concerned (messy room), I see it as a way to break thought patterns in order to enhance creativity. Art and mild clutter represent a chaotic mix of thoughts. Surrounding myself with art increases the likelihood of considering unorthodox connections (creativity). There is of course a trade off.. opportunity cost of time and social capital.

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Re: How to deal with artists and "intuitives"?

Post by Crazylemon » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:59 pm

Provided they are not harming you what need is their to correct their dirty bedroom? Just don't live with/marry them!

If find also that I am not friends with many because as you mention a lot of the behaviour just seems mad and 'live in the moment' is really shortsighted.

But as acquaintances being civil and never letting them realise you are wealthy and so a potential source to keep their delusions going for another few months/years seems to be the way to go.

I have colleagues who have opted out of the pension scheme at work for the same reasons you describe. Reasoning was pointless and just annoyed me and them. Let them get on with living how they think life should be lived and don't get entangled.

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Re: How to deal with artists and "intuitives"?

Post by Tyler9000 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:57 pm

FWIW, your concern about others disliking the explicit chain of affirmative consent for things like putting your arm around somebody has nothing to do with intuitive personalities. That's a cultural thing very isolated to certain ages and geographies, and honestly you're probably going to find that most people of all personality types who have not recently spent time on a liberal college campus explicitly requiring that process in all physical encounters will find it kinda weird.

When it comes to creative vs. rational personalities, I think it's important to keep an open mind. As someone who walks the line between the two sides, I can see that neither mindset is wrong -- they're just different. I know just as many rational people with terrible money skills as I do creative types, and they simply justify it differently. And I know lots of super smart borderline autistic engineers who live in near squalor not because they're artsy in the slightest but because keeping a tidy home simply doesn't interest them. So be careful not to jump to easy answers to explain why other people act the way they do. Categorizing others rather than listening to them is a common mental trap of rationally-minded people and is a major source of relationship problems.
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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:30 pm

It sounds like you are describing my lesbian artist SJW roommate. Have you been up to our garret recently?

I'll bet most of them are capable of being perfectly pleasant people, with jobs and bills and everything.

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Re: How to deal with artists and "intuitives"?

Post by Lucas » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:00 pm

I believe this is not about being "intuitive" as opposed to, say, "methodical," or having subjective instead of logical standards, but organization vs. disorganization. There are organized, disciplined artistic types who display impressive work ethics, as there are down-to-earth individuals whose behaviour is the opposite; the distinction is between being a professional and an amateur—and although the terminology is work-related, the respective mindsets translate well to personal life.

Creative work, for example, may require inspiration, something we cannot simply "force," but while some people sit down waiting for it to magically happen, others actually take steps to create the conditions that make it more likely to strike (I am reminded of this video) and they are consistent in doing the work. Again, both approaches translate to other areas and across different human types.

Ultimately, despite the original post's pointing to a specific group, I suggest that the real issue here is that of immaturity, which may come in many colours but reveals the same pattern—one I recognize in Olaz's description. Some get angry when inquired about their finances (or relationships) and claim they have been too frigging busy to give it the proper attention, others adopt an ethereal air and rant about their loftier interests, but it is the same thing, really.

And if that is the case, conversation and reasoning being ineffective in correcting bad behaviours, I find that such people respond well to rewards/punishment. They usually expect the world to take care of them and deal with their mess, but take away their buffers, let them feel some pain for their mistakes, and they are quick to learn.

Case in point: X could not drive, thus riding to work with our room-mate, Y, who would spend much of his early mornings trying to wake X up, asking X to hurry, waiting for X, and being stressed about the whole deal. When Y got a different schedule, I agreed to drive X to work, but I said: "I leave at 8. If you're not ready by then, you're on your own." Sure enough, after the first days of missing work and paying taxi fares, X became really, really punctual.

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Olaz
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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Olaz » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:29 am

I think immaturity might have a lot to do with it. I'm super interested to see how these people who use a Subjective/Living in the Moment Mode mature or temper as they graduate from the wealth and privileges afforded at a premier college. Part of me might kindly push back on their ideas to see if we can't learn from one another. Too bad that one of them is virtually impossible to meet with because "texting to meet up is too planned." Interestingly, I don't know why this all bothers me so.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Dragline » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:26 pm

Some people are just a waste of time, even if they may have some surface appeal. You are not missing anything by not accommodating their habits, or lack thereof. And a preference for confusing or lack of communication is really just a mechanism for creating drama in one's life. Some people just live for drama -- they literally view their personal narrative as a soap opera -- and have communication habits that tend to create it by promoting uncertainty and confused relationships.

Another useful thing to consider may be to mentally assign a "reliability" score to the people you know. There are certain old friends of mine that have low scores. Any time I make plans with them, I mentally prepare for the fact that there is a high likelihood that it may not happen or something different may happen, so I adjust my expectations accordingly. And I figure that if they are not going to try very hard with me, I don't have to either when it comes to dealing with them.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by jacob » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:04 pm

@Olaz - Go read Please Understand Me (1 and 2) from David Keirsey. Your artist and creative friends are perfectly normal (within their parameter space).

See ISFP here: https://www.xeromag.com/fun/personality.html (or find something more serious .. like http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ISFP_rel.html )

Each personality type comes with strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses can be compensated for and the strengths can be moderated with maturity and eventual life experience. However, what mainly drives a person is not their experience but their underlying core personality. In particular, some of those strengths become strengths exactly because there are matching weaknesses. For example, people don't do art like accountants complete with step-by-step lists and milestones and checkboxes. People don't do budgets like art complete with brushes and paints after a bad breakup. Well, maybe some do, but you get the point.

PS: They're probably talking about (never on internet forums, mind you) why INTJs are such arrogant bastards and wonders why INTJs always seem aloof with all their future plans and strategies for everything.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by C40 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:28 pm

@Jacob -- Hey, I believe I have both Version I and II of Please Understand me. I've already read II. How are they different? I should also read version I?

As for other people describing INTJs, I like how my cousin describes my INTJ style of Monopoly. (In Monopoly, as an INTJ, I'm obviously good at seeing who has what properties, what trade possibilities exist, etc.. I'm also good at planting ideas of which property types a person will/should try to get a monopoly of, and at discussing this with them and planting seeds a that lead to trades later on). My family is decent at Monopoly, but not all that good. They often wait to trade until they've had a significant number of turns bass by making it super obvious they should've traded a long time ago. We play once or twice per year. I always win. My cousin tells people about how I always win. She says no one can beat me because I'm thinking so much farther ahead than they are on trades, on what happens if certain people land on certain un-bought properties, on what happens if other players make the trades they obviously should, etc.. and I think "Yeah, that's how you win at Monopoly. That's what everyone's supposed to be doing." But they don't do it. They just let the turns pass by. They don't do it in real life either.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Scott 2 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:59 pm

I've been told that when we're young, we are drawn to the people who are different from us, call it curiosity.

As we get older, we get sick of the drama and conflict that produces, and seek out people who are similar.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:21 pm

Well, I agree with Dragline, there are many people not worth knowing. "Artists" usually fall in this category for me. Actually, most people fall in this category, now.

However, variety is the spice of life, and learning to take the good and deal with the rest will make for a richer life. Notice I didn't say take the good with the bad. Life is too short to deal with drama, or the dramatic.

I have a friend, so regularly late, we all know he operates on "Gregtime". Despite his best intentions, he will be late to everything, and not by a little. Show up after the concert, kind of late. He just has no sense of priority, and whatever he is doing at the moment, is the most important to him, at that moment. We have gotten along for almost 30 years now, but because while I invite him along, at no point will I wait for him for anything. We can do things together, but they have to be the kind of thing I can do on my own or with others, without him. This takes the pressure off of him, and the frustration out for me.

If the only people you can get along with are similar to you, there will be a lot you miss out on in life. Finding effective ways to deal with differences, and filter out the differences that aren't worth tolerating, is a key lesson in life. This will be under constant tuning as you get older.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by EdithKeeler » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:23 pm

I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush. I know a lot of artists and creative types and many are just the opposite of what you describe--God forbid if you shift a canvas or move a paintbrush in their studio!

I would say that as I've gotten older, I've come to appreciate "living in the moment" a lot more. I spent a lot of my youth being wound WAY too tightly, worried about what I was doing, what my future was going to be, how I was going to get there, was I doing the "right" things.., and worried way too much about what other people were doing as well. As I've gotten older I've come to realize there is no One Way that everyone should be. Some people are messy, some aren't. Some people are noisy, some people are quiet... I'm much happier, I find, taking them at face value. If their mess doesn't encroach on my life, then all is well and I don't care.

And I think asking someone if you can put your arm around them is just weird. I've read about all that asking for permission stuff on college campuses. Seems super odd to me. But i know times have changed since the dark ages of the 80's. (Oh, what fun they were!!).

Not everyone cares about the same things as you do. And as I recall, you're getting ready to graduate from college or just graduated? I'll tell you, that was a pretty eye-opening experience for me, when I finally got out in the world and started to work. Up until that moment, the vast majority of people I spent time with were very much like me. Pretty much middle class, predominately white kids, products of very good schools, well educated, the same manners, same way of speaking, celebrated the same holidays in pretty much the same way, very similar backgrounds and culture, etc. I THOUGHT I was pretty worldly, but once i graduated, moved to a new city and got a job working with people who were very, very different... well, let's just say my comfortable bubble started to burst.

I think the best thing to do is meet people where they are, for who they are. If they aren't asking you for money, don't worry about their money and lack of financial planning. If their quarters are messy, don't go there any more (or eat anything they cook if they have a dirty kitchen--ugh). It can be a lot of fun to have that crazy friend who calls you at 3 AM to do a doughnut run. You won't want to do it all the time, but it's nice to have people in your life to shake your own life up a little bit. Within your acceptable boundaries, of course.

Anyway, that's my probably condescending life advice.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by halfmoon » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:39 pm

Riggerjack wrote: I have a friend, so regularly late, we all know he operates on "Gregtime". Despite his best intentions, he will be late to everything, and not by a little. Show up after the concert, kind of late. He just has no sense of priority, and whatever he is doing at the moment, is the most important to him, at that moment. We have gotten along for almost 30 years now, but because while I invite him along, at no point will I wait for him for anything. We can do things together, but they have to be the kind of thing I can do on my own or with others, without him. This takes the pressure off of him, and the frustration out for me.
This is such good advice that I want to highlight it in NEON ORANGE CAPITALS. There are people who are or will be in your life who can make you angry (and more importantly: stop liking/loving them) if you don't put aside your expectations. I have one friend and two family members who fit this bill, and I decided awhile ago that my expectations were setting them up for failure in my eyes. Accepting them for who they are let me continue to appreciate their other qualities. You don't need to control everything.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Dragline » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:41 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
I have a friend, so regularly late, we all know he operates on "Gregtime". Despite his best intentions, he will be late to everything, and not by a little. Show up after the concert, kind of late. He just has no sense of priority, and whatever he is doing at the moment, is the most important to him, at that moment. We have gotten along for almost 30 years now, but because while I invite him along, at no point will I wait for him for anything. We can do things together, but they have to be the kind of thing I can do on my own or with others, without him. This takes the pressure off of him, and the frustration out for me.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Accepting people the way they are but not rearranging your life to accommodate their problematic behaviors. If it comes together at a particular time and place for a time, great. If not, so be it.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Campitor » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:25 am

I think People tend to throw artist under the bus a bit undeservedly. Everyone needs a bit of the poet to balance the warrior. DaVinci and Feynman come to mind. DaVinci's artistry and quirkiness help advance medicine via his copious drawings of anatomy from the dissection of corpses despite it being illegal at the time. Feynmann was a bongo playing prankster who loved ant watching but his contributions to quantum electromagnetism were very important. The artist, like everyone else, exist on a curve; most are harmless, some are dangerous, and a few of them are indispensable. INTJ's fall within similar curve comparisons.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by jacob » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:34 am

@C40 - It's been many years since I read them. They are complementary though and IIRC, I got more out of I than II.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Dragline » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:42 am

Campitor wrote: Feynmann was a bongo playing prankster who loved ant watching but his contributions to quantum electromagnetism were very important. The artist, like everyone else, exist on a curve; most are harmless, some are dangerous, and a few of them are indispensable. INTJ's fall within similar curve comparisons.
I can assure you from personal interaction that Feynman was much more professor than prankster, and was usually every bit the arrogant nerd that typified the position he occupied -- just a lot better at social interaction than most. But he has become much more of a prankster since his death through the power of the internet.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Smashter » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:30 am

Dragline wrote:
I can assure you from personal interaction that Feynman was much more professor than prankster
Fascinating, care to elaborate? Count me as one of the many who thought he was all about picking locks and thinking of silly ways to get coded messages out of Los Alamos. Those are the stories he likes to tell in his books, at least.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by JasonR » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:40 am

What I find so fascinating is that this question comes from the same person who showed such a high level of maturity, understanding, and emotional intelligence in the trans gender thread. Deal with "them" (contemptible artists) the same way you deal with Jews and men with vaginas. Problem solved.

But why do you feel a need to put everyone into a box in the first place? Of all the people on this forum I would have put you at the bottom of the list for boxing up humans and ascribing labels to them. Do you seriously think this way about people? Or is this a case of small sample size?
Because you say things like:
Olaz wrote:Also, from what I've heard, their perception of
And I don't know if you've heard this, but, all Jews love gold and all Black people are lazy and all Argentinian's are...
It appears you have contempt for a set of values. What does it have to do with being an artist any more than being a trans gender with shitty money skills, or a research scientist with a filthy home? No need to foist it onto a group of people you arbitrarily defined.
Olaz wrote:Is there something of substance to their life philosophy?
Whose? Black people? PHP programmers? Black PHP programmers in wheelchairs? I have a BFA in printmaking and I don't recall taking any class that taught us all the same life philosophy.

Snark aside, if we accept that there are a group of people called "artists and creatives" and they all share an overriding belief system (how did this ever come from the mind of Zalo/Olaz?!?!) then speaking for all of them (I'm also available to speak for all white men and the Amish) I would say the lessons to learn are:
1. to not measure out your life in coffee spoons
2. iteration
3. divergent thinking

1: There are many people here who will do X when FI where X is something they could do tonight. Start writing that novel tonight.
2: Cinnamon13 had something in her journal before she died where a pottery prof split the class into two groups. Group A is graded on the final bowl they make and group B is graded on how many bowls they make. 90 for an A, 80 for a B, etc. The prof said group B was doing higher quality work by bowl 50 than group A did do all semester. For some reason people get precious with things and want it all to be perfect on attempt 1 or 2, then they "pivot" after failure. It won't ever be, but it will get closer through repetition.
3: I watched a real coder "help" my code by turning three functions into a 3 line loop. Head explosion noise. He's not a loathsome artist, but he sure was good at divergent thinking. Same for the guy who helped me frame my basement. His solution for boxing off the I-beam was elegant and bought us more headroom than my crappy soffit I was hammering away at. Divergent thinking can be learned and exists everywhere, not just with artists. Who aren't a group of people. And don't need to be dealt with.

People are people. You just figure it out like anything else...

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Campitor » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:52 am

I can assure you from personal interaction that Feynman was much more professor than prankster, and was usually every bit the arrogant nerd that typified the position he occupied -- just a lot better at social interaction than most. But he has become much more of a prankster since his death through the power of the internet.
I didn't mean to impugn his character but my opinion of his pranking, and brilliance, was formulated by his public interviews, the book he wrote about himself, his lectures on physics and electromagnetism, and the interviews from his Los Alamos coworkers. For the record, I admire the man immensely for his intelligence and his contribution to science. I use his "Feynman technique" when learning new subjects (it has served me well), and I'm envious that you were able to interact with him personally.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by C40 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:29 pm

Dragline wrote:
Riggerjack wrote:
I have a friend, so regularly late, we all know he operates on "Gregtime".....
This is exactly what I am talking about. Accepting people the way they are but not rearranging your life to accommodate their problematic behaviors. If it comes together at a particular time and place for a time, great. If not, so be it.

Reminds me of one of Thomas Jefferson's Canons of Conduct: (many of which are taken from the Enchiridion) "Take things always by their smooth handle"

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Dragline » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:16 pm

Smashter wrote:
Dragline wrote:
I can assure you from personal interaction that Feynman was much more professor than prankster
Fascinating, care to elaborate? Count me as one of the many who thought he was all about picking locks and thinking of silly ways to get coded messages out of Los Alamos. Those are the stories he likes to tell in his books, at least.
I was at Caltech for the last four years of Feynman's life (and actually remember where I was when I learned he had died.)

He had had some serious health issues starting around 1980 and seemed to be more of shell of his former self (at least what I knew about it). I first met him as a freshman on the orientation where they took everyone to Catalina Island for a couple days and later attended some of his lectures. He really wasn't doing much teaching anymore, although he "taught" an informal class called "Phys X" where people could just ask him stuff. Most of it was trivialities. In general, he was so brilliant he was difficult to understand unless he was really prepared to "perform", which is what you see now from the video archives that had been saved. But he loved performing much to the consternation and/or jealousy of some of his colleagues.

Freeman Dyson's observations about Feynman were accurate:

"Then you met Richard Feynman and you ended up working with him on quantum electrodynamics.

I never worked with Feynman, but I learned a tremendous lot from him. He was a young professor and I was just a student, so I listened to Feynman, and of course he was a genius. He was also a clown and loved to perform, so he always needed an audience. I was very happy to be the audience.

What made Feynman different from other scientists?

He was extremely original. He had his own way of doing science, which was different from everybody else. That’s why he had a hard time communicating. He never wrote down equations. Most people in physics write down an equation and then find the solutions, but that wasn’t the way Feynman did it. Feynman would just write down the solutions without ever writing the equations. It seemed like a sort of magic because he thought in terms of pictures instead of equations. He had these little pictures in his head and he scribbled little pictures on paper and nobody understood what they meant. My job was to translate Feynman into language other people could understand."

Feynman also had a very bad reputation as far as his interpersonal relationships and treatment of women was concerned. But this was common for male scientists of his generation. As another odd quirk, he refused to brush his teeth.


The best lecturer at Caltech around that time was physicist David Goodstein, who created a program called "The Mechanical Universe" and also put together "Feynman's Lost Lecture" in 2000. But my most memorable teachers there were Hans Liepmann, who taught me thermodynamics and dimensional analysis, and Thomas Apostol, who taught calculus and wrote the books we knew as "The Tommy 1 and The Tommy 2". A phrase I still use to this day from Apostol is "Nobody can stop me from . . ." And then he would assume a particular variable was pi or e or something and end up with some Euler equation or number. But I use it more as a generic rallying cry for taking action or breaking conventions.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by jacob » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:29 pm

@Dragline - I wonder whether that Dyson observation was strictly about QED? The general process for that is to write out the pictures for particle interactions and then realize that each part of the picture (e.g. electron transmits photon) corresponds to a term under an integral. It's these integrals that are then integrated to get reaction cross sections. Today, one can get mathematica packages that do this automagically. What was so impressive about Feynman's method at the time was that these integrals are really hard to construct without having some visual idea of what's going on. Other physicists would frequently miss some of the partial cross sections when summing up all of them because certain interactions didn't occur to them (whereas it's more clear in pictures). Also ... the first time this way of deriving the answer is introduced, it's almost unbelievable (because people are so used to doing things algebraically).

So I guess my question is ... whether this thinking in pictures and writing the solution down was a more general thing or it was "just" QED. Most physicists with some years of experience tend to become very visually intuitive ... but few will be able to construct solutions in equation form directly from that.

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Re: How to deal with artists and creatives?

Post by Dragline » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:46 pm

Dyson's comments are from this interview: http://nautil.us/issue/43/heroes/my-lif ... dream-team

All I was trying to say was that Feynman's reputation for being this "Great Communicator" is a little overblown and is based on his best performances, although its not that hard to gain that rep among that peer group, because most great scientists are not great communicators. He was a great self-promoter for sure, and his legacy reflects those efforts.

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