Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
Post Reply
User avatar
Olaz
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: White Plains, NY; 23
Contact:

Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by Olaz » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:55 am

I think Jacob and Ray Jardine, one of the fathers of ultralight weight outdoor recreation, are very similar. Both of you are strong INTJ's, seem to care more about truth than "fitting in" or "looking good", and are seen as "too extreme" by most yet "totally reasonable" by a few. Also, the principles taught by you both cannot be applied well by people without the fitting ideology and acquired skill-sets (whether sewing your own gear or cycling to work). I thought this was interesting as I compared the tone, content, and ideology of the FI based ERE book and the ultralight weight book Beyond Backpacking.

It also got me thinking: why is some of the stuff Jacob, Ray, and other free-thinkers say controversial. I mean, what did Jacob say: if you live more efficiently, you can be financially independent much sooner. "Lentil lover and index hater!!1." And what did Ray say: if you spend time outdoors in a more efficient way, you can enjoy the outdoors in a healthier, safer, and more enjoyable manner. "Oh, but the corn pasta and tarps!!1." Honestly, it's like an entire ideology is dismissed on one misinterpreted idea. The ad hominim attack that bugs me the most is: "I feel sorry for his wife" (partner, etc.). I've heard this used on many non-traditional writers, and it's such a simple-minded rhetoric--the person using it hasn't even met the author, let alone can they accurately asses what their relationship to their partner is.

Meh. I hate the general public. #Rant

-----------

Do you have any insightful, non-traditional authors you like who are unjustly controversial? I find if they're INTJ, or just a T in general, they're more likely to get a bad rap the more popular they get. Actually, more popularity seems to inherently breed more "hater/asshats." Feel free to chime in with that experience if you like Jacob. : )

Somehow MMM has survived the popularity gammut and is fairly well-liked nowadays, though maybe that's because his NW and annual expenses are closer to the norm; a wheaton level closer than a Ray or Jacob, perhaps.

Thoughts?

User avatar
daylen
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by daylen » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:27 am

There does not exist an idea about how life should be lived that is not controversial.

User avatar
luxagraf
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by luxagraf » Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:51 pm

I think it's important to bear in mind that they're controversial *right now*. I don't think Jardine was particularly controversial in 1970s. He always struck me as having a basic "appropriate tech" sort of philosophy, but applied specifically to backpacking/hiking. More broadly there have been plenty of times in the past where both of their ideas would have fit in with prevailing culture. Read some of the various pro/con criticism of Thoreau that's been produced over the last 150 years for a case study of how ideas fall in and out of fashion.

But I think that right now we're at or nearing or recently passed* one of those inflection points of history where the dominant culture myths collapse. That tends to make ideas very polarizing. But right now it seems like one contingent of culture is very desperately clinging to the status quo and very shrilling trying to shout down anything that might undercut it, and another is unwilling to accept anything that might at all be related to the status quo they're so excited to see collapsing that they shout down anything that takes ideas from the past. The net result is that pretty much everyone seems to be shouting down everything.

* hard to say for sure without a good decade of hindsight since collapse is rarely dramatic and all at once.

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 1795
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by Riggerjack » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:29 pm

My model of humans shows that 95% of the population is spending 95% of their thought dedicated to social positioning.
How to advance career.
How to seem smarter than X.
How to look better/stronger/sexier/dominant to Y
Best way to step on Z to gain advantage.

By making critical statements about a challenging idea, that person is trying to position himself further from the edge of the flock. The idea doesn't matter, the position does.

If you aren't obsessed with trying to be on the inside of the flock, this jostling for position seems odd and confusing. But if you look closely, you will see the pattern.

I would say not to worry about it. That the folks obsessing over social positioning aren't likely to be worth much time and effort. So allowing them to filter themselves out will generally make your life better, all around.

If, for some reason you really care about popularity of an idea, you don't need a leader, you need some good joiners. People comfortable with doing things differently, and willing to be seen doing it. Get enough of those, and the the 95% will flock to it, as it is no longer perceived to be outside the flock.

https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_ ... anguage=en

User avatar
Olaz
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: White Plains, NY; 23
Contact:

Re: Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by Olaz » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:31 pm

Now that you mention it, learning how to effectively create social movements sounds great!

James_0011
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:00 am

Re: Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by James_0011 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:22 am

I like a writer Ray Peat, he has unconventional views about nutrition and health - and is considered to be VERY controversial to say the least. I think people don't want to hear that what they are doing is "wrong" or that the world isn't as simple and straightforward as they think. What you challenge the status quo, you challenge peoples egos and identities and no one likes that.

In other words, people perceive free thinkers as a threat.

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 2527
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Why are Ray Jardine, Jacob, and other free-thinkers considered controversial?

Post by BRUTE » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:11 pm

different is threatening

Post Reply