Do you lie?

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
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Sclass
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by Sclass » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:16 am

When I read this I feel really ashamed of myself. I lie all the time about my lifestyle now.

I've learned the hard way that people get jealous of you on the ERE path. The ones who do usually can see the big picture but cannot pull it off because of discipline problems or status anxiety. But understanding what you are attempting and knowing that you will go where they cannot drives then crazy. Nowadays when I sniff one of these types I start lying.

Once you actually retire, anyone with half a brain can do the math and become jealous. If not dangerous, they can at least be irritating.

So I've lost some close friends.

Anyhow, I should have lied. I hang out with myself a lot these days. I should have just lied.

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jennypenny
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by jennypenny » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:40 am

Sclass wrote:Anyhow, I should have lied. I hang out with myself a lot these days. I should have just lied.
+1

Being 'authentic' can be very lonely.

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cmonkey
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by cmonkey » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:27 am

This is something that might separate us from one couple that we see from time to time. The wife would totally understand the 'why' but probably not the 'how' of our ERE plans. The husband (whom I used to work with) would never understand and has a sort of protestant work ethic going on. I doubt he would even let his wife RE.

I can honestly see us drifting away from them unless we maintain some sort of fake persona, which I don't like.

On the other side I have another friend that I used to work with, and still talk to regularly that completely understands our ERE plan, but doesn't really have the drive to do it himself. Despite this, we would totally remain friends after we ERE since he knows all about our plans now and thinks it is awesome.

I think if you are authentic from the get go, there is no reason to lie later on. Just find your crowd from the start. Granted this is still difficult. :P

Noided

Re: Do you lie?

Post by Noided » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:51 am

@cmonkey

I have a friend like the 2nd you described. I told him about my ERE plans about a year ago and although he told me he could never spend as little as I do (he is more the traditional young guy looking for wife, kids, house, vacations, restaurants, etc), he doesn't mind about my plans, actually he finds them fascinating. On my side, I don't want to follow his path obviously, but I am also ok with it. I actually helped him with starting a budget and saving when he got his fist job, but aside from that, money is not something important in our friendship.

To other people (most people) I am much more tactical of what I disclose. I only told about my plans to one of my coworkers after months of getting to know him. And he thanked me for the ERE/FI material. The key is to be honest with people that want to learn.

However, I am currently in a rough mental patch. I suspect I have some mental/anxiety/social issues and I will be seeing a psychiatrist soon. This is important because, when you get uber stressed out just being with other people, it doesn't help that they notice you don't eat meat, that you wear the same clothes almost every day, that you don't have a car, that you choose to live in a smaller place etc etc. People notice these things and start asking questions. I still don't know how to handle this quite well. My overall strategy has been to try to evade on most issues, sometimes to be factual (talking about costs of car/house vs alternatives). The evading tacting gets you isolation, the factual answers get you more question (why are you saving that money??)

I really hope someday I can be more extraverted and sure of myself when trying to assert my diferences. For the time being, I mostly focus on the doing, instead of talking, that is something that someone in this forum said to me and really stuck. But talking is also important in life... at least to me.

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fiby41
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by fiby41 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:56 am

Noided wrote:@cmonkey
However, I am currently in a rough mental patch. I suspect I have some mental/anxiety/social issues and I will be seeing a psychiatrist soon. This is important because, when you get uber stressed out just being with other people, it doesn't help that they notice you don't eat meat, that you wear the same clothes almost every day, that you don't have a car, that you choose to live in a smaller place etc etc. People notice these things and start asking questions. I still don't know how to handle this quite well. My overall strategy has been to try to evade on most issues, sometimes to be factual (talking about costs of car/house vs alternatives). The evading tacting gets you isolation, the factual answers get you more question (why are you saving that money??)
A suggestion...

When confronted with too many question, when you risk being judged and fear isolation; you can pick something you do that costs AND people value in general/consider acceptable, and moan about how much it costs.

Imaginary examples:

Coworkers pester Vexed why he cycles to work instead of buying a car. He talks about downpayment on diamond rings and vacations to Greece and US.

When neighbors try to look down upon Sccalas for living modestly, Sccalas tells them how taking care of ailing parents leaves Sccalas with low savings.

SimpleLife tells his friends how he has to fix his rentals of the damage done by previous tenants before letting it out again; when they disapprove of his simple life.

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Dragline
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by Dragline » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:33 am

fiby41 wrote:
But then you will have to maintain a persona that is half a facade which is tedious. Do you lie? Under what circumstances is it okay to lie?
Sure. And its generally ok when you are just dealing with someone else's idle curiosity or personal narrative/cognitive dissonance. One is not required to satisfy the informational wants of the masses and casual acquaintances, unless one actually cares what that particular person thinks. But non-information is generally the better course than dis- or mis-information.

Interesting new book about dishonesty for the reading list: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CD36FF6/re ... nav-subnav

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theanimal
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by theanimal » Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:15 pm

I read Ariely's book. It was decent. It mainly focuses on how the social environment can enable one to lie. Also, how once one lies, it becomes harder and harder for them to break out of that mold. It's your beloved foolish consistency, Dragline.

IlliniDave
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by IlliniDave » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:10 pm

I don't bother to lie, but I don't give out too much information either. On the subject of ER I emphasize living a humble, low cost lifestyle, not having lot of wealth. Just sitting here I can't name anyone who has reacted negatively off the top of my head. Most offer encouragement. At the same time I won't maintain any of the friendships I have now once I ER since I'll be leaving here with no plans to ever return, so I guess I won't get to see how people change once this is more than talk. Maybe no one believes me.

Once I get relocated I look old enough that being "retired" won't be a shocker. In Minnesota one of my "next door" neighbors retired at 55 too, so I'll blend right in. :)

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fiby41
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by fiby41 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:21 am

A thought...

We can apply Games Theory here. Lie to those who have lied to you. But they must be caught first or be habitual liars. In this case, the advantage goes to those who lie first, trust least and cover their tracks well.

Demerit list of those who lie to us based on intent or harm caused:

Lied to us to exploit us
Lied to us to protect their self-interest, with no effect on us
Lied to us to protect their friends, with no effect on us
Lied to us to protect their self-interest, at our cost
Lied to us to protect their friends, at our cost
Lied to us for no discernible reason

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jennypenny
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by jennypenny » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:07 am

It seems like many people (probably unknowingly) use game theory as a basis for lying in social situations. I think that's why some people get mad at an honest person -- they've chosen not to play the game. GT lying feels a lot like Machiavelli's rule about using honestly as a weapon, though. IIRC, his advice was to use the truth as a ploy and means of disarming people, implying that people should lie most of the time to keep the quiver full. (Sorry if I'm remembering that incorrectly, it's been a long time since I actually read Machiavelli.)

Relentless honestly -- not the TMI kind but the 'open book' kind -- is supposed to be the healthiest way to live. Being honest is a way to disarm your opponent, although it can feel like you are just handing over more bullets for their gun. A better metaphor might be when confronted by an attacker, instead of fight or flight, drop your shield and stand your ground. In that way, you take the 'game' out of the situation. Hopefully they will lose interest. Even if they don't, there's no longer a game so there's no longer a winner. You've taken away their victory.

There was also a study that showed that people who were completely honest in all of their dealings were healthier ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/0 ... 48144.html "The researchers found that in the “no lies” group, the fewer lies the study participants told, the better their health. For example, telling fewer white lies was associated with fewer feelings of tension or melancholy, as well as fewer health problems like headaches and sore throats, the researchers found. ... And overall, telling fewer lies over the study period was linked with feeling more honest and having improved relationships."

7Wannabe5
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:09 am

@jennypenny: I agree with what you wrote. However, the issue becomes more problematic when you also consider emotional honesty and forthright communication of preferences. Also, in the realm of honest dealings people sometimes confuse promise with contract.

Person 1 to Person 2: I will love you forever.

Person 2 drowns the kitten that belongs to Person 1

Person 1: I hate you.

Person 2: But, you said you would love me forever. You are a liar!!!

IOW, over even the very short run, rigorous evaluation of honesty can only be relevant in the realm of purely factual matters, and life and human interactions are greatly influenced by matters that are not purely factual, even some that may seem that way on the surface. For instance, was your father lying to you 30 years ago if he told you that investing in your own home was safe? So, it's almost always childish to resort to lying yourself, but it is also childish to overly rely on others to convey the truth. OTOH, the ability to "see" the truth in the moment through unbiased perspective, and the ability to allow yourself to be emotionally honest or vulnerable in the moment, are the hallmarks of childlike strength.

Another problem with the consideration of truth is that it can be a process that doesn't honor complexity. For instance, does there exist a scientific paper written in 1852 that is more honest in its depiction of the world we share than "Bleak House?" Truth is often only in your possession like the umbrella you don't yet know you left on the train.

ShriekingFeralHatred
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by ShriekingFeralHatred » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:09 pm

blah
Last edited by ShriekingFeralHatred on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

James_0011
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by James_0011 » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:55 pm

@ShriekingFeralHatred

Lol, are you serious? Where do you live if you don't mind sharing?

I can't imagine that happening here in ny.

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BRUTE
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:15 pm

@James_0011:

getting phone calls about brute's abducted daughter gets real old real quick. even if brute doesn't have a daughter.

ShriekingFeralHatred
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by ShriekingFeralHatred » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:34 pm

blah
Last edited by ShriekingFeralHatred on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sclass
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by Sclass » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:19 am

Sure I'll share.

I have a family friend who got kidnapped in downtown LA at his business. 1970s. He escaped because the kidnappers were idiots...his ex-employees. They picked him up as he was opening up his business in the early morning. It was an eye opener for our friends. Everyone in my parent's circle started toning things down. At least the smart ones did.

It was a direct result of him showing off. Everyone knew this guy was rich. He told us. Idiot. Rags to riches story that just got retold over and over to anyone who would listen.

I am much poorer than that idiot and I still got my friends upset about my wealth. There is something about all the crabs trying to pull you back into the barrel when you climb out. 90% of my relationships were ruined by disclosing I had enough to retire early.

Admittedly this has to do with acting frugal. People assumed I was poor and liked me because I was a humble and resourceful miser. It was easier for them to look down on me than to feel envious. Once I retired people were genuinely worried about my financial situation because in their eyes I was poor. I screwed up and explained my entire situation with transparency and that torpedoed the friendships.

"Don't worry friends, I won't starve, see I have more money than you could have imagined!" Yup that went over well.

I mean I took "retirement" and "wealth building" advice from people poorer than me for years over beers. I never said, "ridiculous your rules don't apply to people like me." I just nodded my head and listened to their middle class wizdumb. This convinced them of their superior financial standing and thus made them comfortable with little old me.

I guess they kind of felt comfortable pitying me over the years. Reality was always under there but the middle class people I chose to socialize with are good at putting on blinders. I called a couple of days ago to skype in on Thanksgiving. I've missed our usual dinner for two years now after relocating. I'd think they'd want some retirement investing advice but nope. They seem to want to run away from me and my reality. It's got to be a coping mechanism.

Non of this occurred when I looked poor. I could have kept going and kept my old friends had I lied.

ShriekingFeralHatred
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by ShriekingFeralHatred » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:14 pm

blah
Last edited by ShriekingFeralHatred on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sclass
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by Sclass » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:00 am

ShriekingFeralHatred wrote: I am considering to tell people I am on welfare and doing odd jobs on the side and imply my career went south, like I pissed off the wrong person and got shut out off the business or something.

I am just rambling, but I would love to hear people's deceit tips.
My dad has been telling family friends I got really sick and I have a bad heart. This is not really true because I got the heart fixed better than new. He makes me out to be a disability case to our friends who have not retired yet. It kind of pisses me off when people start out after not seeing me for years like I'm dying or something. I bite my lip so I don't mess up my dad's carefully woven lie. He's just trying to protect our friendships.

Nobody has asked for a loan yet. They already know the answer.

Sad stuff. I naively had this vision that it would go well but it didn't. I wasn't sharing in the toil anymore. I wasn't the object of pity. I wasn't the receiver of novice financial planning. I just kind of got cast off. I started to realize our get togethers were complaint fests about work, the economy, retirement, and the lack of money in general. Pretty sad thing to hang on to.

One of my really good pals calls when he's intoxicated. He gets really insulting and frank. The next week he acts like nothing happened. It's amazing to see his heart when his inhibitions are down. Envy mostly. Some anger. Mostly he tries to guess how much money I have and when he comes up with a number (usually wrong) he starts saying how it isn't enough to retire.

Whatever. I'm not sure these friends are even worth lying to.

ShriekingFeralHatred
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by ShriekingFeralHatred » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:00 am

blah
Last edited by ShriekingFeralHatred on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sclass
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by Sclass » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:42 pm

ShriekingFeralHatred wrote:Haha good show, your dad knows what's up.

I take it some of your friends saw through your dad's tale. What do you think gave you away?
Yup. Mostly it is for his friends who are in their fifties and still working. Actually they believe him and they think I'm an invalid. The mind believes what it wants to.

They want to believe I am a nothing. So they go on doing that.

Amazing what people will accept especially if they already want to believe it. Just takes a little push from my dad.

steveo73
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by steveo73 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:48 pm

I tend to not lie but it's tough. I have 6 weeks holiday coming up over Christmas. When I tell people the next question is "where are you going". The problem is that I'm staying at home. People think it's nuts.

James_0011
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by James_0011 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:45 pm

Maybe I am just to young to understand all this, but it seems to me like these people aren't really your friends to begin with....

ShriekingFeralHatred
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by ShriekingFeralHatred » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:59 am

blah

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TimeTravel
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by TimeTravel » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:14 pm

I have never lied in my entire lifetime :roll: .

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BRUTE
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Re: Do you lie?

Post by BRUTE » Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:22 am

pants aflame, full of shame

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