Open relationship?

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
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Ego
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by Ego » Wed May 25, 2016 1:06 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Ego wrote:Yep, that describes me to a T.
Mr. Agreeable.
I think I just pee'd myself.
A few years ago I found a keychain version of Mr. Wonderful at the swap meet for something like 50 cents and gave him to Mrs. Ego. Whenever she doesn't like my response (which is often) she digs out Mr. Wonderful to say just the right thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooHHd8LOoAI

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed May 25, 2016 2:50 pm

I wouldn't completely disrespect or disregard Mr. Wonderful. I knew a female academic with a very soft personality type. She had been dithering on writing a book she needed to write for a long while. She decided she would hire a coach because she thought she needed somebody to whip her into action. The coach she hired turned out to be the gentle, supportive type rather than the hard, directive type, but actually proved to be just what she needed and very helpful. I think people are often clueless about what they really need or want in relationships and the proof only shows up in the pudding. I spent 9 months in relationship with a man who was about 5 shades more directive than your average Russian gymnastic coach. In a few realms I ended up in the best shape of my adult life at the end of our relationship, but I actually dumped him for a sweet, needy man 12 years younger than me because he was so very much the opposite of Mr. Wonderful.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu May 26, 2016 6:12 am

Well, I wimped out on ending monogamy contract with the Cowboy yesterday, but I really have to do it. I do not absolutely preclude the possibility of happiness within monogamous contract for myself at some juncture in the future, but the Cowboy and I both know that he works too much and doesn't have the stamina to handle me on his own. Like how some people think it would be fun to have a pet monkey, but then find out it is too much work. This is also one of the reasons why I agree with the WHO that waist-to-hip or waist-to-height ratio is a much better indicator of health risk than BMI. One of the reasons poly-amory is different than monogamy is that it is like you can partner with 3 men who each want to take one 10-mile run each week, and then you get three 10 mile runs in for yourself. If you are monogamous with another partner who is also high drive then it is more like you do one 10 mile run, two 5 mile runs, three 3 mile runs, and 2 sprints each week. I'm good with either option, but it is actually easier to find 3 otherwise amiable and attractive men who want to do one 10 mile run/week, than one otherwise amiable and attractive man who wants to run a total of over 30 miles/week, especially within my peer group. Also, in order to run a total of over 30 miles a week with the same partner, you pretty much have to live together, so I would have to find somebody who also wants to live in a camper or dilapidated house on my permaculture site, because I am not willing to bike in from the suburbs every day.

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Dragline
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by Dragline » Thu May 26, 2016 7:30 am

7Wannabe5 wrote: but the Cowboy and I both know that he works too much and doesn't have the stamina to handle me on his own.
Are your sure he knows? Sometimes its like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu May 26, 2016 4:12 pm

Dragline said: Are your sure he knows?
Yup. Actually, one of the things I find charming about him is that he is quite conventionally masculine in appearance and skill set, and he is a natural core dominant, but he emits a running, neurotic monologue not unlike Woody Allen. I find the contrast quite amusing. Since he is self-aware and communicative, I thought maybe I could work with him, but...it's kind of really a bad sign if a man feels compelled to utter the phrase "Can't you wait?" to me after only a couple months of acquaintance. My reaction to such a comment has varied over time and relationship, but currently my response is something like "Yes, I could, but why should I?"

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri May 27, 2016 10:20 am

Yippee ki yay-yay-yay... Cowboy got his contract extended. Also, cracked me up with monologue stream note-to-self comment of "Staying in shape is going to be critical." Of course, I do not quite know why I am engaged in the counter-productive behavior of helping to improve the heart health of somebody likely to vote for Trump and recently heard to utter something along the lines of "What the f*ck! They should f*cking instantly give me the coffee when I f*cking throw down the platinum card...Hey, you look good today. All those other bitches are going to be f*cking jealous."

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat May 28, 2016 1:16 pm

Cowboy agreed to polyamorous contract due to acknowledgement of:

1) I am too much for vast majority of men over 50 to handle on their own, and it is nice to share.
2) He is still in love with one of his exes (the "beautiful" one, I am the "gentle" one- blech.)
3) He has forever forsworn marriage due to $1800/month, house and majority of assets hit he recently took to get divorced.

However, he will remain the partner with whom I spend most of my time in boyfriend/girlfriend type relationship for the time being because we get along very well even though he is grouchy and politically conservative. He is an avid gardener and so are both of his best friends, so we are all sort of having a tomato and berry growing competition. Since the Permaculture Manager is, obviously, also growing tomatoes and berries, my polyamorous circle is becoming even more intertwined with my permaculture circle. The Peacemaker wrote me that he was going to bring a picnic lunch to a certain meeting place every day for 3 days in the hope that I would show up on the bicycle he bought me, and he even attached a picture of his grandbaby who looks just like him to win me over, so I wrote and told him that I would. The Permaculture Manager is going to help me rototill my hugelkulture again as soon as we get a bit of rain. So, everything is going great again!!!

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:29 am

At what point do you tell your potential partners that you have other partners from before? How do you tell them and how do they react?

I met a nice woman. My wife likes her. I made some advances but she didn't want to go through with anything because it's "wrong" because Im "married" and she doesn't like the thought of "sharing" me, despite my efforts in trying to explain the contract me and wife have. Anyway, no big deal, but I suspect the story would be different if the advancements were made before she met my wife.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:54 am

wood said: At what point do you tell your potential partners that you have other partners from before? How do you tell them and how do they react?
Varies and depends on definition of "partner", but discussion of recent and/or continuing sexual partners would occur prior or consequent to discussion concerning safe sex. Since, unlike you, I do not have any committed (as opposed to exclusive) relationships, depending on other factors, in some situations my insistence on condom use might serve as adequate communication of non-exclusivity. Sometimes men request exclusivity prior to requesting sex, but they don't insist on it very often. YMMV, but I believe that disclosure of any committed relationship is best practice and in your longer-term self-interest unless you enjoy having vitriol spilled upon your being.

These-a-days it is very rare that I will encounter anybody in my peer group in the dating world that does not have any other sort of continuing partnership. The four main cultural factors that have rendered everybody more poly are effective birth control, full participation by females in the workforce/world-at-large, the internet and full societal acceptance of serial monogamy (divorce, living together, etc.) So, for instance, even my conventionally long-term happily married sister has a "work-spouse" and old boyfriends she is still in communication with on Facebook. Obviously, extremely common-place for divorced people to have ongoing co-parenting/financial and friendly or engaged-combative relationships with exes, and this is currently true for the Cowboy. My own marital-ex called me up out of the blue just this week, and we had a friendly chat and agreed to meet for coffee when he visits the area next week. The Permaculture Manager is best friends with a woman he's known since high school. He assisted her in the raising of her two daughters (not his) and even walked one of them down the aisle when she was married. Very common for me to meet men who have ongoing business/financial partnerships with previous wives or girlfriends. Everybody has a variety of work-spouses, f*ck-buddies, romantic pen-pals, life-style/finance partners, cuddle-mates, very attractive person who has been in your bike group for 10 years, exes and ohs, etc. etc. etc. There's just this very thin line of "not concurrently sexualized or romanticized" separating much of the general public from the self-aware polyamorous, and I'm not even including those who claim to be monogamous but choose to cheat on contract in this model. How many polyamorous Presidents have we had here in the Puritanical United States? I suck at history, but I can think of at least 10 right off the bat.

Anyways, that said, there are at least two non-deceit-laden strategic solutions to your problem. You either have to convince the woman that it would be in her self-interest to practice polyamory herself, or you need to convince her to make an exception to her monogamous practice for the particular instance of interacting with you. One thing you should bear in mind is that women shop differently than men on the dating/mating market. Women are more conservative in terms of considering what they can reasonably "afford" and they consider more factors than men. Studies show that most people have a pretty good idea of their own standing in the dating market. However, no matter what his ranking, men will attempt to date any woman above his bottom standard all the way up the scale, if he thinks he has a chance. Women, otoh, tend to stick to a narrow band of men around their perception of their own standing. Both men and woman are highly influenced by physical appearance, but high-ranking women will date men with low-ranking (bottom 10%) for appearance if they have high ranking (over $250,000/year) for other status markers such as income. OTOH, there is no amount of income a woman in the lowest 10% of appearance can earn that will render her date-able. http://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/do- ... -in-a-mate

So, one strategy would be to convince a woman that it might be in her self-interest to either shop the market more like a man OR less like her female peers (subtle, but very, very important difference.) The main reason why I decided to extend my practice to include polyamory was that I realized (suddenly my own experiences and reading on the topic "clicked") that I was "paying" too much for monogamy/exclusivity/commitment (or the illusion of such), because that is also what most of the other females in my peer group are shopping for on auto-pilot without reality-check on their true self-interest vs. that marketed in the typical Hollywood chick-flick. Ergo, polyamory is the frugal choice for me. Might be more expensive choice for other individuals. OTOH, if you simply wish to convince a woman to make a risky exception to her conservative rule for the particular instance of interacting with you, then you should just consult any well-reviewed book on how to be a player. I have read several of these manuals myself, and they are pretty uniform in the advice they offer and just vary a bit in style. A third obvious strategy for the polyamorous male would be to make it clear that although you are not able to offer exclusivity, you are able/willing to offer commitment or behavior-usually-manifested-in-committed-relationship. Also, you should communicate in a way that makes your wife's other partners, and your potential partner's potential partners, as vivid a reality as possible. IOW, be realistic about what you don't have to offer this woman, and be proactive in suggesting how she might obtain it elsewhere. IOW, fashion yourself into something like the fun, flexible part-time job that pay a fantastic hourly wage offers very interesting benefits, and doesn't interfere with either her long-term full-time career aspirations, and/or her college class load and volunteer activities.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:02 am

So, one strategy would be to convince a woman that it might be in her self-interest to either shop the market more like a man OR less like her female peers (subtle, but very, very important difference.)
Thank you for the insightful post, the quoted part has especially helped my thinking. Maybe I've been to selfish in my thinking and haven't fully considered the possibilities from the other persons perspective. Then again, many or most of the women I encounter are looking for that one man to fulfil all their needs as a monogamous spouse. This brings out the need for me to do some convincing if I want things to excalate, or to leave the prey alone so to speak.

Its interesting that you have taken a rather economic look at this. For me it's more about instinct/emotions/needs/impulse rather than economics. The other day me and wife agreed we both have this want for conquest whenever we feel lust. We are going through a drought period in that it's been a while since any of us had sexual encounters with anyone else. Its absurd when comparing to my previous long term relationship. I could never imagine having this conversation with my ex.
A third obvious strategy for the polyamorous male would be to make it clear that although you are not able to offer exclusivity, you are able/willing to offer commitment or behavior-usually-manifested-in-committed-relationship
Yes, this is something that I've been doing after my lightbulb moment from your post looking at contracts from a behavioral perspective rather than emotional. But I'm having some minor challenges;

I'm currently reading a book on systems thinking (Thinking, Fast and Slow, Kahneman) where our brain is described as consisting of two different ways of thinking. System 1 is our intuition, the knowledge that's just immediately there and comes from experience. It's what makes you think of Paris when I ask what the capitol of France is. It's what tells me that my remote is closer to me than the TV. System 2 on the other hand is what gets activated when I ask you what 17 times 24 equals. You will start to go silent, concentrate, focus, bloodpressure rises, pupils will dilate. System 2, the slow analytic system, is also the system I have to activate in order to not do or say something wrong when dealing and discussing contracts and commitment with females. This system sometimes works against me in that I can appear quite cold/cynical/analytical when they ask something like "so what are we" on the topic of relationship status. The lesson I've learned so far is to do my internal analysis first, then reply, but thinking before speaking works way better when texting than in a face to face situation. In the face to face situation, I will either appear too cynical and they will start second-guessing the point of interacting with me, OR system 1 will cause me to fall into some kind of trap where I commit to something I later regret, like "always being there when she's sad" (just an example). Have you ever had this challenge or does it come natural to you after some time?

I guess training makes perfect.

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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:02 pm

wood said: The other day me and wife agreed we both have this want for conquest whenever we feel lust. We are going through a drought period in that it's been a while since any of us had sexual encounters with anyone else. Its absurd when comparing to my previous long term relationship. I could never imagine having this conversation with my ex.
So, you and your wife are both self-aware dominants? One of my post-marital/divorce therapy practices is that I attempt to have very open conversations with all of my sexual partners with varying degrees of success. The Cowboy keeps saying things like "Mmmmm...there's one I wouldn't mind going poly-amorphous with." whenever a random attractive female walks by. And the Permaculture Manager said "Do you mean are you just one of my many wives?" and started laughing when I asked him if he was poly-amorous. A better word than poly-amorous has got to be found. Maybe just CNM for consensual-non-monogamy. Like world-wide-web vs. internet.
System 2, the slow analytic system, is also the system I have to activate in order to not do or say something wrong when dealing and discussing contracts and commitment with females. This system sometimes works against me in that I can appear quite cold/cynical/analytical when they ask something like "so what are we" on the topic of relationship status. The lesson I've learned so far is to do my internal analysis first, then reply, but thinking before speaking works way better when texting than in a face to face situation. In the face to face situation, I will either appear too cynical and they will start second-guessing the point of interacting with me, OR system 1 will cause me to fall into some kind of trap where I commit to something I later regret, like "always being there when she's sad" (just an example). Have you ever had this challenge or does it come natural to you after some time?
It's different for me because I am not a dominant and/or I am not a male. I currently self-describe as a free-agent, post-feminist, femme submissive. Therefore, generally, I do not offer contract or seek to conquest. I accept or decline offered contracts and I seek, prefer or allow conquest. IOW, as Ginger Rogers said "I do it backwards in heels."

So, I would more likely be the one inclined to ask a question along the lines of "so what are we?", in order to get better grasp on what sort of culturally-pre-packaged contract I was being offered. Except, although I do occasionally slip, it is my best practice to not ask dumb-azz questions like that, but rather to take men/dominants at their literal word. The more control the submissive directly seeks to achieve through contract, the weaker the power exchange becomes. The core value of a dominant is the desire for respect and cheating or disappointing the terms of a FREE contract will kill self-respect, so the vast majority of the time dominants will fulfill contracts they freely offered. My vocabulary is getting a little squidgy here because "can make contract" is pretty much the definition of a free adult, and a submissive is, hopefully, also a free adult. It's like if you agree to give a female a ride in your car to San Diego because you wanted some company, you are kind of a total dick if you dump her on the side of the road in St. Louis, but if she decides to bail out of the car in St. Louis herself because she doesn't like the way you drive or you didn't stop when she said she had to pee, then that is different, because you were the one who had control of the vehicle. IOW, because the dominant has more control within the realm or terms of the contract, in order for the balance of power to be equal, the submissive has to retain more control over the existence of the contract. If the dominant relinquishes too much control or the submissive exerts too much control within the realm of the contract, then the relationship loses potential energy.

Anyways, my simple answer to your question would be that even though "backwards in heels" is a different challenge, the fast vs. slow systems rule of thumb does apply, and it has been my experience that some of the better practices I have learned that were relatively easy for me to apply once accepted or acknowledged to "work" have become so natural for me that at this point I can't not do them. For instance, it has been many years since I gave a speck of thought, speculation, life-energy or hope to whether any particular man was going to call and ask for a second date. Either a specific literal contract/statement was offered, such as "I will call you on Wednesday about the film on Friday." or no contract/no relationship exists. I am naturally absent-minded with short-attention-span, so this practice was easy for me to adopt. Others are more difficult. For instance, according to Deida, if a guy is doing something you don't like, such as accidentally making you feel like your legs are going to be popped out of their sockets, then instead of saying something like "Stop, stop, stop!!! You are hurting me, you evil careless monster.", you are supposed to say something like "I feel pain." or just "Ouch!", and I sometimes find that difficult advice to follow. Actually, I'm pretty easy-going, low-maintenance and low-anxiety, so I usually find it kind of cute how men are almost always pro-actively looking out for my comfort and security as part of the contract-in-the-moment.

I'm kind of regretting suggesting that you offer commitment within the realm of CNM as part of your contracts. The association between exclusivity and commitment is so tight in our culture that this really might be likely to backfire on you. I am not a person who needs very much emotional support, so if somebody offered "I will always be there when you are sad.", that would be of dubious value to me, whereas "I will take you to the symphony or the theater every weekend this season." would make me say "Yay!", but be very disappointed/cold-angry/politely-dismissive if that didn't happen unless there was a very good reason, not inclusive of anything along the lines of "My wife said she felt threatened by this behavior." Can't trust a man to keep contract if he isn't fully in possession of his own gonads, and there are very limited circumstances under which one female is going to give a flying fig about your ability to fulfill your weak contract with another female. So, it is DEFINITELY best practice to err on the side of committing to less than you are likely willing/able/wanting to offer rather than more. In fact, given that most females do not follow the best practice of "listening for the literal", I wouldn't even offer vague suggestions or common associations if I were you. "I will always be there when you are sad." is a seriously weak contract, because a contract requires clear exchange of two valued items/services with enforceable terms. Since "sadness" or any emotion can be infinite, you can't include emotions in strong contracts. Of course, the contract I suggested for theater-going was also phrased as just-a-promise, but the unspoken second half would be something like "in partial exchange for your continuing sexual availability..." , therefore, "cold dismissal" is the to be expected simple enforcement of contract.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:43 pm

My wife, a beautiful and feminine female from a different continent, is also very much a dude like me. I wouldn't describe us as dominant unless you gave me a sensible definition of that word, but she is bisexual, a very good friend of mine and enjoys being dude-like when it comes to all the small things in life. Come to think of it, she is actually quite submissive and likes it when I make small decisions on behalf of her/us, at the same time we are both very caring and loving so it doesn't affect our relationship negatively. I'm not a control freak, but Im more controlling than she is. I guess our dynamic is partly reflected in bed as well, because we can both be submissive or dominant depending on mood and circumstance. She is the type who will comment on some woman's ass and fart in the sofa, while also being very girly and love it when I go all dominant on her.

I get what you mean when you say you regret suggesting commitment within the realm of CNM (skip that abbreviation btw, I've already forgotten the C) because I think I've fallen "victim" for it already. Learning by doing. So when it comes to commitment, I would never agree to "always be there when she's feeling sad" for the specific reason you mention: it's based on feelings and not actions, hence its a weak contract. But like you say, even action-based contract can have undesirable associations that contain "unspoken rules of conduct". This is where the floor is still very slippery for me.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:33 pm

@wood: I agree that my use of the words "Dominant" and "submissive" outside of the realm of S&M is pretty loosey-goosey. There are many related, sometimes confused, but not necessarily even over-lapping concepts such feminine/masculine, predator/prey, lead/follow, assertive-aggressive/relaxed-peaceful, yang/yin, top/bottom, rational-cognitive/emotional-sensual, directive/receptive, alpha/beta. I apologize for making any sort of assumption about your or your wife, it was just that what you wrote about both of you lusting for conquest and experiencing drought, and also your use of the word "prey", made me picture something like two tigers pacing in a cage. OTOH, I might say that it is kind of hard to define, but I know it when I see it or experience it. For instance, in the link below, Elle King is clearly playing a "bad Domme" and the guy she kicks out of the car is clearly a "weak submissive." (Although I own a vintage trailer and had several rather hunky male lovers simultaneously, I am almost the opposite of the character she plays-lol.) We all come back to center as highly intelligent, self-interested, omnivorous, very flexible, socially-motivated primates, but while in the ring or realm of sexuality there is generally a personal preference for how often or to what extent you want to end up on top (psychologically.) A number of years ago, I briefly dated a younger man who self-described as submissive. We remained friends and one time when I was visiting, the younger, dominant female he was with, clearly in a competitive play with me, ordered him to fetch her purse. My reaction was like "Blech, no worries, you can have him."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uLI6BnVh6w

So when it comes to commitment, I would never agree to "always be there when she's feeling sad" for the specific reason you mention: it's based on feelings and not actions, hence its a weak contract. But like you say, even action-based contract can have undesirable associations that contain "unspoken rules of conduct". This is where the floor is still very slippery for me.
I must admit that I am biased in my advice because the Peacemaker's vague contract with his wife is "Do nothing that will threaten the marriage." and she told him she felt threatened and asked him to agree to not be sexual with me for some unstated period until she no longer felt threatened. Now he is madly in love with me because my initial reaction to his agreement with his wife was to tell him I was moving on. Meanwhile, I am spending a lot of time in the company of the Cowboy who exhibits very good boyfriend behavior in relationship to me, yet he is still almost obsessively in love with one of his exes. Meanwhile, it seems like the Perma-culture Manager took a clue from the fact that I kept not being available in the evening and is just engaging with me as bossy gardening buddy. I honestly can not even figure out how I wish this whole situation would resolve itself.

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GandK
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by GandK » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:07 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:I honestly can not even figure out how I wish this whole situation would resolve itself.
It's unresolved to you? It would certainly be unresolved (and frightening) to me, but your use of that wording was unexpected to me as I read this exchange.

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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:44 am

@GandK: Well, first I would note that the situation isn't frightening because the only man who is madly in love with me is core polyamorous and also the most civilized person you can imagine. IOW, it is not just that he tolerates the fact that I have other partners. He positively wants me to have other partners. His wife was polyamorous herself before they met 16 years ago, so her current stance is a unilateral change in contract which she understands is likely to be long-run unacceptable to her husband, whether or not I vaporize from the scene. She is kind of irrationally biting off her nose to spite her face if she wishes to maintain her relationship with her husband, because I do not want to be his primary partner. I just want him to be my polyamorous pivot. Also, he is extremely good-looking and charming, and it is difficult to resist his in person appeal. He met me for a picnic last week and brought me a woven basket for my bike. Also, his blood pressure has shot through the roof since his wife forbade him being with me, so I am rather worried about him.

I like the Cowboy because he has a dorky, frugal, eccentric side to his personality. He saves scraps of hotel soap, lives in one room in the house of a very wealthy, extremely eccentric, super-frugal friend who is in his 70s, and he mowed a strip of grass in the backyard to run back and forth on for exercise. He is also very good about opening car doors, and researching what kind of sunblock will best keep me from burning, and attempting to sit still next to me during symphony performance (I had to pet him a bit.) However, he is also out-of-control aggressive dealing with traffic and other aspects of the human field, and although an avid gardener, he does not believe in global climate change and will likely vote for Trump. He stumped me for a minute with an argument based on the weight of CO2, but now I know the answer, so we are probably about to have a big fight. Also, he is still madly in love with an ex who looks at least 50% more like Giselle Bundchen than me who dumped him for a guy who looks like a cross between Lurch and somebody who plays golf and sells insurance. Therefore, although he could be aggressive, he knows that he has no right to get aggressive because he is not that into me and is mostly just trading good boyfriend behavior and symphony tickets for my availability in the role of calming human cuddle toy. Also, his PSA numbers have gone down significantly since we got together. Plus, he is also quite physically attractive, with broad shoulder tapering down to quite cute azz.

It would also be my preference to resume sexual activity with the Permaculture Manager. Obviously, his life mission is the most closely aligned with my own, although we are not compatible as monogamous life-partners because he wants to do a giant project on 50 acres and father some children. I don't actually know who his ideal feminine partner would be, but I know that one of the men he idolizes is Joseph Kennedy, and that signals WAAAY too much work to me. He is helping me a lot with my project, but he says that is because it is good practice for his much bigger project. He has no right or likelihood to be aggro-jealous at all, because he pretty consistently exhibits behavior in alignment with the fact that he has only every applied the adjective "beautiful" to my azz, not my eyes or my hair, so his interest is clearly only friendship, sex, and not romance. He has thick velvety skin over heavy dense musculature on the widest possible shoulders a person could naturally have at 6'2", so the simple lust is pretty mutual.

Anyways, I have come up with a scheme that may or may not work. It hurts my brain to try and figure out how people will likely behave or respond more than 2 steps out.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:47 pm

@wood: Have you and your wife ever swapped directly with another couple you didn't know previously? If so, how (recommended site?) did you make these arrangements, and how did it go? Part B of my current scheme may require another couple. It's pretty clear that one of the problems that the polyamory scene shares with the S&M scene is a shortage of free-agent females. Like it's almost impossible to plan for a dinner party without ending up with at least one extra man.

Part A of my scheme, so far, went even better than I expected. The Permaculture Manager agreed to escort me to dine this evening with the Peacemaker and his wife. So, now I just need to make further arrangements to keep the Cowboy happy. We get along quite well in a sort of instant-old-married-couple way, so he could maybe be my de facto home-boy primary if he finds that he likes to play.

Of course, this complex scheme may fail completely, leaving me all alone in my decrepit garden camper with nothing but a stack of library books and a bowl of mulberries for company and comfort. Yup, pretty much win-WIN-WIN

EdithKeeler
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by EdithKeeler » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:18 pm

Reading this whole thread is fascinating to me. I guess I don't think about my relationship enough. We go out, eat dinner,go to the movies, have sex, go on vacation, do stuff, share a lot of interests, but not all. And we're both TALKERS. And it's just the two of us, which is good, because one thing we do have in common that much more would be exhausting for both of us. I can't imagine having to deal with more than one person. We also live in separate states, and when we're together, really don't even like to sleep in the same bed that much. We keep talking about taking the next step in our relationship of buying a duplex together, where he'd live on one side and me on the other. We were talking tonight about what loners we both are, and being loners, our "thing" works for us. It's easy. Your deal sounds way more complicated than I'd want, and I love IlliniDave's comment about clutter. Too funny!

Which is to say: I support your choices, and am glad it works for you, but it would not work for me!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:08 pm

EdithKeeler said: Your deal sounds way more complicated than I'd want, and I love IlliniDave's comment about clutter. Too funny!
Many things such as society, economic activities and markets, and cultural behavior are apparently man-made but grow on their own to reach some kind of self-organization. They may not be strictly biological, but they resemble the biological in that, in a way, they multiply and replicate- think of rumors, ideas, technologies and businesses. They are closer to the cat than to the washing machine but tend to be mistaken for washing machines. Accordingly we can generalize our distinction beyond the biological-nonbiological. More effective is the distinction between noncomplex and complex systems.
Artificial, man-made mechanical and engineering contraptions with simple responses are complicated but not "complex," as they don't have interdependencies. You push a button, say, a light switch, and get an exact response, with no possible ambiguity in the consequences, even in Russia. But with complex systems, interdependencies are severe. You need to think in terms of ecology: if you remove a specific animal you disrupt a food chain: its predators will starve and its prey will grow unchecked, causing complication and series of cascading side effects.
"Anti-Fragile"- Taleb
My current theory or argument would be that polyamory does not create complications, it simply recognizes the already existing complexity in human sexual functioning and modern intimate relationships. OTOH, it has been my recent experience that when you attempt to become fully accepting of the actual practices and desires of others, some kind of surreal stuff can happen. A simple example of recognizing the actual in this realm would be that most people in monogamous relationship still have active fantasy or masturbatory relationships with other "partners", and most mature adults are accepting of this, and not overly interested or concerned, as long as their own needs are being met within the context/contract of the relationship. A counter-example would be that the Peacemaker's wife's current stance is that it might be alright if he resumes his sexual relationship with me, as long as he no longer tells me that he loves me. I brought the Permaculture Manager to the dinner where I met the Peacemaker's wife, and he even went so far as to practically nuzzle her neck when the four of us were parting, but to no avail. His instant somewhat objective analysis of the situation was summed up in the 3 words "She hates you." Then the two of us went and had a few more drinks, and he told me that I am not polyamorous, like the Peacemaker and his wife (previously),I am just single-non-committal, like him, but now we seem to just fully be in the "buddy" zone. So, my only remaining sexual partner is the Cowboy, and we spent the weekend living together in a hotel room with a kitchenette in which he pretty much forced me to prove that I can cook. The irony of my situation at the moment is that nobody is primarily using or valuing me as a sex object. If I continue on in this fashion, I am going to end up with this giant collection of old men hanging about my garden camper and informing me that my water system is unbelievably annoyingly f*cking inefficient, I do not know how to use a shovel properly, I am going to hurt myself if I use such a dull knife to slice the onion, I will get all sweaty if I bike all the way downtown by myself, etc. etc. etc. and then solving my unf*cking believably annoying problems for me by either buying me stuff or removing tools from my hands to show me how it is supposed to be done.

I should note that I mostly just find the behavior of high-strung, grouchy people kind of funny. They are comical to me like Yosemite Sam. However, they need to learn that they are not allowed to yell at me just because the inadequacy of some tool at hand causes their masculine energy to feel frustrated in its core quest for freedom through competence. The way that they learn is I don't give them any attention whatsoever until they apologize.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:33 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:@wood: Have you and your wife ever swapped directly with another couple you didn't know previously? If so, how (recommended site?) did you make these arrangements, and how did it go? Part B of my current scheme may require another couple. It's pretty clear that one of the problems that the polyamory scene shares with the S&M scene is a shortage of free-agent females. Like it's almost impossible to plan for a dinner party without ending up with at least one extra man.
We have not yet tried the swingers scene, but we play with the idea from time to time. Our main issue is finding a trustworthy and suitable site/place to go to and so far we have 2 recommendations gathered from friends that we might try out in the future. Both places are basically clubs (not brothels) in European countries and everything happens in one day/night. I don't know of any site apart from a couple of local dating sites/forums and we are yet to strike lucky on those. We live in Scandinavia and will most likely have to travel abroad to find a pool of people around the same age as ours that we both find attractive.

I totally get the extra man problem. I might be biased, but I have reason to believe this problem might stick around for a while.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:18 pm

Last night the Cowboy and I attended a singles night hosted by the dating site we met on. Seriously slim pickings. We tried to pretend like we were each there on our own, but determined that it was pointless after about 15 minutes. Anyways, I can now cross "walk into a bar by myself with semi-obvious intent" off my bucket list of things I've always been marginally too chicken to do. One interesting thing I have noticed is that the effect of this outing with Cowboy, and another recent adventure involving 3rd party with the Peacemaker, was that I actually felt closer to the man with whom I planned the adventure because that's where I was looking for back.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:56 am

Well, to give you an update on my life, I'm currently having an online "fling" with a woman who lives abroad in one of the countries that are on my "to be forever frequently visited" bucket list. She is jealous of the fact I have a primary partner, and we deal with it by me not mentioning my primary partner to her. My future retirement plan involves being located in some 3 different countries throughout the year and ideally I'd want to have one or several women in each location.

I'm also starting to notice that I refer to my wife as "primary partner" more often than before. I think this is partially influenced by you. And partially from the fact we got married primarily for legal reasons. It was the easiest way for us to live in the same country. We are planning to get married in front of friends and family in her home country in 2018.

3 weeks from now we are getting a visit from a common female friend who will stay for some days, then leave, then come back for a few days again. It's the one we threesomed at new year's 6 months ago. She is really nice to hang out with, surprisingly intelligent for a 22 year old but also incredibly hot. The age difference is not too obvious. My wife, lets just call her Megpie, is feeling summer hornyness and is hungry for female sexual interaction. Everything should be primed for some days of extraordinary sex, although I try keep my expectations low.

Apart from that, business as usual, but I did get the "omg but you're married!" reaction last week when attempting to up the game with someone who's been flirting with me. Women... :p It seems very few people deal with this polyamoury thing effortlessly without some form of jealousy/scepticism, and I think it's more common in women than in men.

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GandK
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by GandK » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:10 am

wood wrote:... and I think it's more common in women than in men.
Not my experience with jealousy. I think with men we tend to call it possessiveness, which sounds slightly more acceptable, but I think men and women are equally likely to be uncomfortable with the idea of their partner being intimate with someone else. I think you're probably finding more jealous women because you're not in situations yet that would lead to jealous men.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:01 am

wood: I'm also starting to notice that I refer to my wife as "primary partner" more often than before. I think this is partially influenced by you.
Words are very important, but I only hope to occasionally amuse with my random babble ;)

My wife, lets just call her Megpie, is feeling summer hornyness and is hungry for female sexual interaction.
I'm already coming down from my peak. It's the sunlight, not the heat, that influences my tendency towards hyper-sexuality. I'm only bi-sexual at the very outskirts of my sexuality, but in spite of my extremely short ring finger which is indicative of low exposure to testosterone in the womb, I have a lot of juvenile masculine energy. I sometimes describe myself as being like a highly excitable gay boy bottom with a tendency towards pre-mature ejaculation trapped in an overtly mature female body. OTOH, my feminine functioning is much more mature than my masculine functioning, so I can also be very relaxed, calm, oldest sister or maternal in my energy. My youngest sister is very bi-sexual and used to style herself like a little punk and she thought it was the hugest compliment in the world when gay men would accidentally hit on her. Now, she totally styles herself femme-brainy (let her hair and her hips grow out a bit), and she has an older, very straight, Cuban boyfriend who looks like Antonio Banderas and she calls him Abuela.
It seems very few people deal with this polyamoury thing effortlessly without some form of jealousy/scepticism, and I think it's more common in women than in men.
GandK said: I think with men we tend to call it possessiveness
I agree with both of you. I think there is a level on which men are more accepting of polyamoury because, unlike many women, they are unable to deny their physiological desire to have sex with more than one person, BUT that does not mean they are accepting of females engaging in polyamorous behavior. There are, at least, three situations in which a man might be more accepting, or less possessive. The first would be in any situation in which they do not want to take on the responsibility or authority that would correspond with level of relationship that "possession" would require. The second situation would be one in which they wished to "possess", but also to "share." The third situation would be one in which they are self-aware that the manifestation of "freedom" by a female is what they find attractive or arousing.

sharansingh
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by sharansingh » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:04 pm

Cheating is not a way to make a good relationship. you should be open with your partner what you did and what you have.

wood
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Re: Open relationship?

Post by wood » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:59 am

We had a great weekend. Miss Singapore spent some days and the 3 of us were in holiday mode and just hung out together mostly in the park. On Saturday we drunk and went out. Wife and Miss S dressed up and looked so sexy I wouldn't mind if we just stayed indoors. Upon entering the bar, I have never gotten so many looks from strangers before. I live in a country where people keep their comments/insults to themselves, and this was a night I appreciated that aspect of our culture. We were shameless. We mostly sat down and chatted, danced occasionally and had a drink. I was in paradise. I look right, there's a beautiful woman who wants to make out. I look left and theres another beautiful woman who also wants to make out. I was being smothered all evening, happily so. The bartender, who also happened to be gorgeous, winked and smiled at me. I don't think that has ever happened to me before. Did I just send out some serious alpha signals with my behaviour?

There is a nice dynamic between us 3. My wife gets more dominant than usual. Miss S has a dominant facade but is naturally very submissive. I enjoy being a bit of both and we seem to work smoothly together in all situations we've encountered. This fits well with my wife being "primary" and Miss S being number 2. I won't deny it, in a dream world I'd be married to both of them and play family all day long. But Miss S is young, single, smart and beautiful and this is likely just a fase in her life.

My colleague said something smart. Marriage is about eating and going to bed together. I wouldn't mind having two women for that.

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