ERE Objections

[jeremymday]

The only person I have tried to convince of this is my girlfriend. After some initial resistance she is moving towards me...
RV won't do but a boat might... Either way she is ok with an inexpensive living situation.
She is already a vegetarian and loves to cook at home... Although she enjoys eating out a lot we are doing it much less and cooking a lot of great inexpensive soups...
She doesn't want to go car-less but having one car for both of us is an option... she also enjoys exercising and going for walks and hikes and biking...
For me personally, she is the only one I need to convince of anything...
If I start to discuss ERE or FI with people, even if they get it, don't seem to want to change their ways. It sounds nice, but its not for them.
But I offer to help anyone who wants to learn how to better manage their money. Its the least I can do.

[il-besa]

Regarding point #1, I would reply:
As I'm privileged and I don't need to work, I feel morally obliged to leave my high paid job to other people who are in need for a salary.

I'll be even more productive in my retirement.
I agree with point #7: if my job would have give me gratification/fulfillment/purpose then I would not be thinking about ERE
Ciao

D

[MossySF]

Even the idea of "early retirement" (ie, 50) instead of extreme version raises the hackles of people. On Bogleheads, somebody posted a link to a MSN article about retiring at 50 and people immediately were derisive about "living a miserable work life to live a miserable retirement life". (Sorry, won't post the exact link here -- no point in having ERE people head there to start more useless arguments). And this is on Bogleheads -- already in the 20% minority of those who live within their means.
The sheer venom leads me to believe people do realize there is something wrong and do not enjoy even thinking about how much of their life they have wasted at work. Otherwise, why the intense hatred? If somebody else lives a different life, why should they care?

[Mo]

I wouldn't dare discuss my plans with my professional colleagues. In a meeting tonight with a bright, well-educated colleague, he remarked that he thought that traditional retirement would disappear in the U.S. within 25-30 years. The essence of his argument seemed to be that soc. security would become useless, and thus a big part of what people count on for retirement wasn't going to exist, and at the same time Americans are becoming poorer in a global sense. Comments such as: "It's a figment of the imagination... you'll never get enough money to retire...." The irony-- he makes greater than $400k per year. How do you think a colleague like that would respond to the concept of retiring on less than $1k per month, under age 40?
The fact that I don't own a house or have kids has been the subject of several inquiries at my work-- the underlying theme being that there is just something not right about me "no house, no kids"... does not compute!... comments such as "renting isn't really a big thing around here" leave me desperate to say things like "but being needlessly in debt is okay, right?"
I don't think ERE is a concept that everyone can embrace initially-- it isn't like switching on a light for everyone, only some. I must admit that at first I read the blog only to learn techniques from those who were more extreme than me. It took a while before I realized I wanted to be extreme too (okay, I'm still not as extreme as many of you!).

[dragoncar]

Mo, I actually think your colleague is right. He's right in that traditional retirement will probably disappear for the majority of Americans. This is because the majority of Americans aren't saving enough. True story. I'm pretty sure I read that our workforce continues to age.
Of course, he's wrong if he's saying it's impossible. It's not impossible for anyone willing to change. But do you really think people will change their ways?

[Cashflow]

One of the best books I've read on financial freedom (besides the ERE book) is Wealth Buys Freedom.
Starting on page 15 of that book is a section on "Quick facts about retirement and wealth." The bottom line is that most people retire in poverty. To paraphrase Henry Ford, whether you think you will retire rich or retire poor, you will always be right. What people think about themselves is what they will become.

[Carlos]

@MossySF
I went to the Bogleheads forum and read the entries. You were right to tell us to stay away. Ugh. Some of those folks are such sheeple.
I've discussed my ER/FI plans with a select few, not many at work (1 actually). Everyone that I've told has been supportive but that's probably because I'm selective in who I tell.
There will be some strange looks and disapproval (envy I imagine) when it gets to the point where my alternate path becomes apparent.
I'm just so fortunate that my partner is on board. Soon we may be running an avocado farm in central america. Or maybe we'll RV across the country and hike the national parks. Who knows?
I know one thing, we'll make the decision and NOT MegaCorp.

[aquadump]

@dragoncar, I think there's a lack of education (or interest?), too. People don't know what enough is, what enough is a function of, and how to have not quite enough last longer than enough.

[jeremymday]

There is a lack of education and a lack of willingness to change. I feel it is my job to educate people the best I can, and let them make their own decisions.
And strongly resist the urge to say, "I told you so..." later on down the road.
Do you guys have trouble with that? It could almost be a separate forum post...

[dragoncar]

I definitely fly under the radar at work. I think most professional companies want people who want to be there (or at least can fake it). If they know you plan to leave after X years, you may be first on the chopping block for layoffs. This is assuming you are early in your career where the company is actually investing in training, etc. and matters much less when you make yourself indispensable.

[jacob]

@jeremyday - I have a hard time resisting saying "I told you so" in general. However, I manage to do so (or I really good at suppressing the memory of it) in person albeit less so on the internet. I've never had any ERE "I told you so" moments, because basically I never really told anyone [in advance]... well, you know what I mean.
I think a lot of these objections can be avoided simply by not stating the coherent plan. Divide and conquer. Most people will write down one's strange habits to quirky but isolated attributes. They can't put the puzzle together.

[JohnnyH]

So true on the positive black swan. You have to be always open to opportunities, willing to go out on a limb and take some chances. You will miss your positive black swan if you develop the common "everything is a scam. No opportunities exist." mentality...
Most people aren't going to pat you on the back, because that would threaten the validity of their choices (mortgage, debt, consumption)... Same concept why you rarely see a jury acquit someone of not paying their taxes, no matter how reasonable the defense.
I've found the more people are invested in the system (23 years out of 30, just "bought" a house/new car, high paying job, advanced degree, student loan debt, boat loan) the more resistant they are to even logically entertaining the idea or ER/FI.
The reactions to my ER plans were so overwhelmingly negative, I learned quickly to keep it to myself.

[S]

I've had mostly positive reactions from friends who think it's a great idea, but I tend to hang out with a bunch of vegetarian cyclists. The main objection from them is that they don't believe it's possible. Family members just shake their head and hope I'll grow out of it, buy a big house in the burbs, and have some kids soon. I just don't bring it up at work since I still need the job for a while.

[mikeBOS]

I've had so many negative reactions from discussing ER that I now just have a blanket policy of not discussing it. It's hard to do, because it's fun to talk about your future plans and successes with people, especially when they start talking about theirs. But I just keep my mouth shut and nod along when they lament about how tough the job market is or tell me about the exotic mortgage they're trying to finagle to refinance their house.
I'll discuss retirement with my closest of friends, but I gave up trying to explain it to family and colleagues long ago.

[B]

I actually have somewhat of the opposite problem. Even though I am on track to retire at 30, to most of my closest friends, I am not prioritizing freedom enough!
Although many of my friends are dreamers, they also pray at the altar of specialization. They can't fathom an escape from industry that isn't simply locking themselves up in some other institution. Academia is a popular choice. A few of them are considering freelancing in their niche as a solution, others have simply taken low-stress entry level jobs.
When I decided to take the ERE long view (work for 5 years as an engineer for WhoCaresInc, reduce expenses, save >70%) many of them saw this as simply "selling out". Even the friend who also took a boring industry job thinks I'm a "sell out" because he has immediate plans to quit (after one year) to pursue freelancing (in a completely unrelated field. wtf!), and I am planning on keeping the job until I am making enough on the side to live on (will probably take 5 years).
Isn't the "free spirited" personality type is supposed to be rare among engineers and scientists?!

[jacob]

That depends on what you mean by free spirited. If it means spontaneous and disregarding consequences (worrying about them later); yes, then it's pretty rare. If it's holding some kind of idiosyncratic view in the face of popular opinion(*), it's not that rare.
(*) Or even in the face of the well-defined standards of remarkable noncomformity ;-D
I think it's more personality dependent than field dependent. It's just that scientists and engineers tend to be dominated by certain personalities.

[mike]

Just spoke with a female colleague who mentioned she would like to move to Hawaii for a extended visit/stay with her boyfriend if only she could pay down her ~$30K credit card debt and just recently incurred another $40K student loan debt (to get a degree in psychology..she is currently a financial analyst making ~ $60K+).
Also 3 months ago bought a used BMW 328i (the choice was between a Honda Civic and a BMW) for like $18K..already been to the shop 2 times since for some tune-up etc that cost over $700 so far.
Also while being at the firm for 3 yrs, claims not to have had any money available to invest in the company's stock purchase plan - get stock a yr from now at 15% discount to current (last 3 trading days of October) trading price and if stock falls below that at time of purchase..you get your full money back. Deductions menahile are made from each paycheck to a max contribution level of $20K. Basically a risk free opportunity to make upto (based on historical data) 26% plus a year and the only lost opportunity being interest one could have possibly earned by keeping those monthly deductions in the bank (2-3%?).
She had wanted my advice while buying the car and I tried to steer her towards the civic but as some others here have alluded...can take a horse to the water..can't make it drink

[Cashflow]

The aspect of human psychology at work here is known as the Crab mentality.
People who try to get ahead at work are often sabotaged by their coworkers; people who want to leave for another lifestyle (such as starting a business or doing consulting work) are often ridiculed and otherwise made to feel unwelcome.
So that I wasn't perceived as a career threat to anyone, I kept a low profile and flew under the radar. By the time anyone had figured out what I had done, I was financially independent and didn't need a job anymore.

[dragoncar]

Crab people, crab people, taste like crab, talk like people...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5wmDhzgY8

[aquadump]

In those situations, maybe change the conversation from financial (and time freedom) aspects of ERE to the skill or development aspects.