@dragon hilarious. if this is your first time at FUME, you must burn your cell phone contract.
ERE Objections
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jeremymday
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:06 am
- Contact:
Just like my "modified" Paleo Diet I am also following a "modified" ERE plan. Not as extreme, but what works for me.
I think we all have to admit that, as Jacob has talked about, there are different levels of learning or adopting anything...
1. Copying
2. Comparing
3. Compiling
4. Computing
5. Coordinating
6. Creating
Most people never really move out of stage 1 or 2. I would see how far along people are and only discuss ERE further with them if they are in stage 3. "Actively compiling tips or tricks to make their lives better"
If they are only in stage 1 or 2 they have to "open their eyes", look around, and see what works and what doesn't. If they can get to stage 3 on their own then I can start to help. If they can't get there, or more likely, don't want to get there, then I can be of no help to them...
I think we all have to admit that, as Jacob has talked about, there are different levels of learning or adopting anything...
1. Copying
2. Comparing
3. Compiling
4. Computing
5. Coordinating
6. Creating
Most people never really move out of stage 1 or 2. I would see how far along people are and only discuss ERE further with them if they are in stage 3. "Actively compiling tips or tricks to make their lives better"
If they are only in stage 1 or 2 they have to "open their eyes", look around, and see what works and what doesn't. If they can get to stage 3 on their own then I can start to help. If they can't get there, or more likely, don't want to get there, then I can be of no help to them...
I talked about it a lot at work before, but soon I was frowned at for my wacky retire early ideas. I still work 6 days a week most of the time to make that goal (among others) but, I keep the retire early thing to myself and my friends (also people who don't quite get it, even by breaking it down).
Sadly, work has been so busy (boss quit, I am interim boss, etc etc) that I barely have the time to read and post here anymore...just skim - and so many fun and exciting topics have come up!
Sadly, work has been so busy (boss quit, I am interim boss, etc etc) that I barely have the time to read and post here anymore...just skim - and so many fun and exciting topics have come up!
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jeremymday
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:06 am
- Contact:
OK, first off, #3 and 5 are just sad.
99% of America is brought up to think one way (work, consume, repeat), when someone comes along and argues against that, the natural reaction is defensiveness. Actually, they are brought up not to think, just do what their parents did. 10 years ago, I would have been the same way. Now that I'm older and a tad wiser, I get the value of ERE - not only the low cost living, but the constant learning and skill building.
I'm not ERE by any means (housing is our biggest ERE sin) since I'm Jacob's age and still working, like Jeremy I'm going for a ERE-lite lifestyle where my wife and I split or alternate the income production. Right now she's at home with the kids, in 5 years when they are in school she hopes to be teaching and I hope to be working a little less and working towards Renaissance Man status. Like Jacob said, things change, but at least we have a plan and are working toward it.
99% of America is brought up to think one way (work, consume, repeat), when someone comes along and argues against that, the natural reaction is defensiveness. Actually, they are brought up not to think, just do what their parents did. 10 years ago, I would have been the same way. Now that I'm older and a tad wiser, I get the value of ERE - not only the low cost living, but the constant learning and skill building.
I'm not ERE by any means (housing is our biggest ERE sin) since I'm Jacob's age and still working, like Jeremy I'm going for a ERE-lite lifestyle where my wife and I split or alternate the income production. Right now she's at home with the kids, in 5 years when they are in school she hopes to be teaching and I hope to be working a little less and working towards Renaissance Man status. Like Jacob said, things change, but at least we have a plan and are working toward it.
Talk to friends? Yes; they just nod. I don’t know what they’re thinking 
Office? It will be to no avail, anyway. Maybe it's an INTP thing Moreover, it helps to fit in, especially at work., the ‘why’ of which I have tried to explain in para2. About the arguments countering ERE, I see as clear as day, the arguments I will be countered with. And I must confess that these were the very questions I posed to myself, and spent months thinking about, in the beginning, before the fog slowly started clearing. It’s still very foggy sometimes (edit).The only arguments worth considering are the ones that deal the moral card. Everything else, and I mean absolutely everything else is just insecurity speaking. The moral argument ie: what happens if everyone stops working, is very valid, however. In the real world, this would never happen-everyone stopping work , that is. But, from a philosophical perspective, it is as valid a question as any. And, it is true that by choosing to not do any work, while you still can, and in the meantime, continuing to consume, you’d be doing society a disservice. But reality is way more complex than that, isn’t it? A lot of other questions must be answered before answering this particular one, and the most important of which would be ‘define work?’ Yes, first ‘work’ would need to be defined thoroughly. That would be an incredibly complex exercise in itself. Work would have to be something that society has absolute need for ( ex: clocks. But then, again, how could you justify all the work that goes into a million dollar diamond studded ornament-of-a-watch, which you still can’t tell the time using, with all those diamonds sparkling so bright ) . Another one would be farming. Then there’s the doctor. Yet another would be that of a school bus driver. Most professions would fall somewhere in the middle, with some vague pointers to utility, but always accompanied by a lot of fuzziness around their REAL utility-a consequence of specialization, another inevitability of modern day society. Just as we finish with the classification, out would come another weighty problem. Say, what if children didn’t need to go to school at all. What if schools were just another inevitability of society that could be done away with, without any loss in value to anyone at all. Where would that leave the school bus driver, whose work initially appeared so meaningful. More complex woud be the question, ‘what about the artists?’ . Life is so much fuller for arts ( the only other thing I’d rather do than do nothing at all is to make art) , but surely not all work ever produced is needed. How can one know which is needed? The deeper you go, the fuzzier and sillier the arguments get, until they get outright insane. So, the question, what work is real work can never be answered in a world of a few billion people. Yet we all have a hunch that most work is just digging up and filling ditches (quoting Jacob). That is what pisses most people off. Because they too know what their work is , deep within. And, yes, acknowledging that would render their life instantly meaningless. Who would want that? That is where all the resentment comes from. It’s just their hopelessness expressing itself. I know first hand, how difficult it is to force oneself to think, that, what you’d thought was THE PATH, and what almost everyone still thinks is, could not be further from the truth. Even armed heavily with the INTP ammo, which I must tell you is as effective as the INTJ one, it gets difficult sometimes 
It would help all of us here to remember that the world can be seen and interpreted in such myriad ways. Asking someone without the right traits to think of the ERE logic is like asking any human to see in 6 or 10 dimensions ( not doing the math, but seeing literally . the math’s easy, I’m told !) It would also help us to realize that everything wrong about the megacorp life etc is nothing more than a side effect of the way society has evolved over a few thousands years. Remember also that that life was never meant to be easy. Or full of goodness! A lot of artisan folks (as the tests, and Jacob, defines them elsewhere) think that way. It’s such a cool way to think about things that way though. It must fill you with eternal peace and bliss I guess. Unfortunately, I myself am not equipped to think that way. But, given the circumstances, and having evolved this much (or only this much) this is almost where we’d ( humans) be expected to be at, as a species. From here, it could get way better or worse, who knows. ( Each one of Jacob’s doomsday predictions come to mind, numerous that they are ) The purpose of life (in an evolutionary way) is anything but to ensure happiness for individual organisms! Just look at the animal kingdom for proof. It is sheer luck that humans are now in a position to make it so, only if we choose to. We’re incredibly lucky. Those of us living in free and prosperous societies at least. So, the life most people force themselves to lead today is not really all that bad, however hard it is for us ERE types to see anything good in it, just like they can’t in ours. It’s just the default. A product of the circumstances. I ,for one, knowing this, and blessed with the right opportunities, cannot ever rest in peace if I choose the default. So, to ERE!!!! (I'm still 'working' on it)
I think I just managed a digression within a digression! Just in case you’re wondering, I’m not a pothead
Back to the topic: I don't talk about it to any one at work, so I wouldn’t know. But, thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone to discuss ERE at work, especially with their boss, and if you wade through the murky corporate waters for a living. The reasoning: Presuming your boss is not an ERE person himself, and this will always be the case, your ERE motivation will be interpreted as nothing more than a lack of drive to succeed! And, in the megacorp world, , which quite a large number of potential ERE folks would currently be part of, why would anyone ( the boss) want to dole out promotions etc to someone whose dream it is to be a directionless, clueless, wannabe hobo ( This is how most megacorp people would see you;) ) If anything, this is corporate harakiri, nothing less. Now, you may ask, how does it matter, since you couldn’t care less, what anyone thought about you anyway? Well, yes , in the cosmic sense, it doesn’t matter. But, from an ERE perspective, it sure does! Fitting in could save you years even , by virtue of earning better while you’re still working- better promotions, salary hikes etc reserved for the go-getters Even if an ERE disclosure wouldn’t deprive you of any future earnings, it could still help create some friction with your colleagues. How? Well, deep within, every person ever born harbors desires of absolute freedom. Only, they lack the courage, the energy, motivation, or whatever it is that drives some of us, like crazy, to freedom. So, your ERE discussions would just piss your co-workers off at one level- because the fog does clear for everyone, even if only for an instant, and then they too get to see as clear as day. But what can they do about it? This is the way life is “supposed” to be lived after all! If you cannot change something, it indeed is better not to think about it. And by discussing ERE, you’re forcing them to remember! Not a good idea for them, unless they can really change. Not a good idea for you, for they’ll resent you a little for it. Ignorance is bliss, they say. Well, so is forgetfulness. It’s better for the ones not capable of changing to remain oblivious to the truth.( On days of extreme self doubt I wish insatnt amnesia on myself) It’s better for everyone that way, IMHO. So, the summary is,I think, you cannot change the whole world or expect it to be in a certain way, no matter how much you'd love it. But you can change youself to fit in or choose to be around what ( the people, the ideas, the communities) you like in the world. And, you can forget about everythign else. ( I am very active on a ER forum dominated by old people...and I am yet to come across one that can now, with thorough conviction, call their past megacorp existance etc meaninful) And, Jacob, in case you’re reading this: Thanks a lot!!!! You’ve been a BIG inspiration.. I’ve been lurking here since long, only never posted before.
Office? It will be to no avail, anyway. Maybe it's an INTP thing Moreover, it helps to fit in, especially at work., the ‘why’ of which I have tried to explain in para2. About the arguments countering ERE, I see as clear as day, the arguments I will be countered with. And I must confess that these were the very questions I posed to myself, and spent months thinking about, in the beginning, before the fog slowly started clearing. It’s still very foggy sometimes (edit).The only arguments worth considering are the ones that deal the moral card. Everything else, and I mean absolutely everything else is just insecurity speaking. The moral argument ie: what happens if everyone stops working, is very valid, however. In the real world, this would never happen-everyone stopping work , that is. But, from a philosophical perspective, it is as valid a question as any. And, it is true that by choosing to not do any work, while you still can, and in the meantime, continuing to consume, you’d be doing society a disservice. But reality is way more complex than that, isn’t it? A lot of other questions must be answered before answering this particular one, and the most important of which would be ‘define work?’ Yes, first ‘work’ would need to be defined thoroughly. That would be an incredibly complex exercise in itself. Work would have to be something that society has absolute need for ( ex: clocks. But then, again, how could you justify all the work that goes into a million dollar diamond studded ornament-of-a-watch, which you still can’t tell the time using, with all those diamonds sparkling so bright ) . Another one would be farming. Then there’s the doctor. Yet another would be that of a school bus driver. Most professions would fall somewhere in the middle, with some vague pointers to utility, but always accompanied by a lot of fuzziness around their REAL utility-a consequence of specialization, another inevitability of modern day society. Just as we finish with the classification, out would come another weighty problem. Say, what if children didn’t need to go to school at all. What if schools were just another inevitability of society that could be done away with, without any loss in value to anyone at all. Where would that leave the school bus driver, whose work initially appeared so meaningful. More complex woud be the question, ‘what about the artists?’ . Life is so much fuller for arts ( the only other thing I’d rather do than do nothing at all is to make art) , but surely not all work ever produced is needed. How can one know which is needed? The deeper you go, the fuzzier and sillier the arguments get, until they get outright insane. So, the question, what work is real work can never be answered in a world of a few billion people. Yet we all have a hunch that most work is just digging up and filling ditches (quoting Jacob). That is what pisses most people off. Because they too know what their work is , deep within. And, yes, acknowledging that would render their life instantly meaningless. Who would want that? That is where all the resentment comes from. It’s just their hopelessness expressing itself. I know first hand, how difficult it is to force oneself to think, that, what you’d thought was THE PATH, and what almost everyone still thinks is, could not be further from the truth. Even armed heavily with the INTP ammo, which I must tell you is as effective as the INTJ one, it gets difficult sometimes It would help all of us here to remember that the world can be seen and interpreted in such myriad ways. Asking someone without the right traits to think of the ERE logic is like asking any human to see in 6 or 10 dimensions ( not doing the math, but seeing literally . the math’s easy, I’m told !) It would also help us to realize that everything wrong about the megacorp life etc is nothing more than a side effect of the way society has evolved over a few thousands years. Remember also that that life was never meant to be easy. Or full of goodness! A lot of artisan folks (as the tests, and Jacob, defines them elsewhere) think that way. It’s such a cool way to think about things that way though. It must fill you with eternal peace and bliss I guess. Unfortunately, I myself am not equipped to think that way. But, given the circumstances, and having evolved this much (or only this much) this is almost where we’d ( humans) be expected to be at, as a species. From here, it could get way better or worse, who knows. ( Each one of Jacob’s doomsday predictions come to mind, numerous that they are ) The purpose of life (in an evolutionary way) is anything but to ensure happiness for individual organisms! Just look at the animal kingdom for proof. It is sheer luck that humans are now in a position to make it so, only if we choose to. We’re incredibly lucky. Those of us living in free and prosperous societies at least. So, the life most people force themselves to lead today is not really all that bad, however hard it is for us ERE types to see anything good in it, just like they can’t in ours. It’s just the default. A product of the circumstances. I ,for one, knowing this, and blessed with the right opportunities, cannot ever rest in peace if I choose the default. So, to ERE!!!! (I'm still 'working' on it)I think I just managed a digression within a digression! Just in case you’re wondering, I’m not a pothead
Back to the topic: I don't talk about it to any one at work, so I wouldn’t know. But, thinking about it, I don’t think it’s a good idea for anyone to discuss ERE at work, especially with their boss, and if you wade through the murky corporate waters for a living. The reasoning: Presuming your boss is not an ERE person himself, and this will always be the case, your ERE motivation will be interpreted as nothing more than a lack of drive to succeed! And, in the megacorp world, , which quite a large number of potential ERE folks would currently be part of, why would anyone ( the boss) want to dole out promotions etc to someone whose dream it is to be a directionless, clueless, wannabe hobo ( This is how most megacorp people would see you;) ) If anything, this is corporate harakiri, nothing less. Now, you may ask, how does it matter, since you couldn’t care less, what anyone thought about you anyway? Well, yes , in the cosmic sense, it doesn’t matter. But, from an ERE perspective, it sure does! Fitting in could save you years even , by virtue of earning better while you’re still working- better promotions, salary hikes etc reserved for the go-getters
Even if an ERE disclosure wouldn’t deprive you of any future earnings, it could still help create some friction with your colleagues. How? Well, deep within, every person ever born harbors desires of absolute freedom. Only, they lack the courage, the energy, motivation, or whatever it is that drives some of us, like crazy, to freedom. So, your ERE discussions would just piss your co-workers off at one level- because the fog does clear for everyone, even if only for an instant, and then they too get to see as clear as day. But what can they do about it? This is the way life is “supposed” to be lived after all! If you cannot change something, it indeed is better not to think about it. And by discussing ERE, you’re forcing them to remember! Not a good idea for them, unless they can really change. Not a good idea for you, for they’ll resent you a little for it. Ignorance is bliss, they say. Well, so is forgetfulness. It’s better for the ones not capable of changing to remain oblivious to the truth.( On days of extreme self doubt I wish insatnt amnesia on myself) It’s better for everyone that way, IMHO. So, the summary is,I think, you cannot change the whole world or expect it to be in a certain way, no matter how much you'd love it. But you can change youself to fit in or choose to be around what ( the people, the ideas, the communities) you like in the world. And, you can forget about everythign else. ( I am very active on a ER forum dominated by old people...and I am yet to come across one that can now, with thorough conviction, call their past megacorp existance etc meaninful) And, Jacob, in case you’re reading this: Thanks a lot!!!! You’ve been a BIG inspiration.. I’ve been lurking here since long, only never posted before.hmm...not bad! (from a comment above) "I'm privileged and I don't need to work, I feel morally obligated to leave my high paid job to other people who are in need for a salary.": I could use that one. And then toss around some verbiage and give them a taste of their own medicine:
A quick and coarse rework of the original 'objections'. I'd like to object too!
1) It's awesome to 'produce' right? right? yes. So, once you cover your own expenses, you are morally obligated to stop 'producing',to help other people who are less fortunate reap the benefits of the most awesome thing anyone has ever had the opportunity of doing, ie: being 'productive'.. You are lucky and privileged to be 'productive', but that doesn’t mean you should forget you’re the only one in the world that deserves a shot at this most coveted position. This is a theme park ride, you’re lucky to be riding, but don’t forget, there’s a line. Get off now!
2) Raising kids on a massive budget is selfish, because it denies the less-fortunate-to-be-productive fella’s kids even a little of the important things that cost a lot of money. (Anyone that came up with point 1, from the original list of objections, obviously cares a lot about other people’s welfare. So, isn’t it right that they care about other people’s kids’ welfare too? Sounds fair to me!)
3) If I had to do it right, it would take 50-100 million dollars in assets to actually live off my investments. Yes , it would. But by the time I'd be done amassing that fortune, there’ll be less of that ‘opportunity to work’ available to me for doling out to the other less fortunate…(there we go again) It’s just a matter of priorities, you know. I put other people's needs on the same pedestral as mine. How about you?
4) Convert everyone? Well, yeah..guess what , you're right! When would you like to be converted? How about this sunday? good?
5) Yeah,that's just plain lazy and guess what, I know it! In fact, my joints hurt from being so lazy and all.. But, someone has to do the good deed.
Etc..etc…etc…I’m too tired to do this even.
A quick and coarse rework of the original 'objections'. I'd like to object too!
1) It's awesome to 'produce' right? right? yes. So, once you cover your own expenses, you are morally obligated to stop 'producing',to help other people who are less fortunate reap the benefits of the most awesome thing anyone has ever had the opportunity of doing, ie: being 'productive'.. You are lucky and privileged to be 'productive', but that doesn’t mean you should forget you’re the only one in the world that deserves a shot at this most coveted position. This is a theme park ride, you’re lucky to be riding, but don’t forget, there’s a line. Get off now!
2) Raising kids on a massive budget is selfish, because it denies the less-fortunate-to-be-productive fella’s kids even a little of the important things that cost a lot of money. (Anyone that came up with point 1, from the original list of objections, obviously cares a lot about other people’s welfare. So, isn’t it right that they care about other people’s kids’ welfare too? Sounds fair to me!)
3) If I had to do it right, it would take 50-100 million dollars in assets to actually live off my investments. Yes , it would. But by the time I'd be done amassing that fortune, there’ll be less of that ‘opportunity to work’ available to me for doling out to the other less fortunate…(there we go again) It’s just a matter of priorities, you know. I put other people's needs on the same pedestral as mine. How about you?
4) Convert everyone? Well, yeah..guess what , you're right! When would you like to be converted? How about this sunday? good?
5) Yeah,that's just plain lazy and guess what, I know it! In fact, my joints hurt from being so lazy and all.. But, someone has to do the good deed.
Etc..etc…etc…I’m too tired to do this even.
I've not been shy about stating my early retirement plan with my coworkers and my boss, but that may have been after reaching a degree of financial independence. I think this has actually worked to my benefit, as it is clear I don't have to be at the office so it is important to provide me with good opportunities and make sure I enjoy my work
Recently my employer announced that they were making major changes to the health insurance plan, moving away from a plan where my employer paid 100% of all medical expenses to an HSA plan. I've been doing the optional HSA plan already, and was asked to participate in a focus group to discuss the plan and help sell it to others. On an internal online forum, many people posted anonymously many negative comments, including stating they this would encourage them to seek employment elsewhere. I posted non-anonymously to my 100k coworkers that I chose this plan, what I thought of it, and shared some links to an ERE blog post about HSAs and also to the sticky HSA link at another early retirement forum, along with a note stating something like "this guy lives off 6k a year and retired before he was 35, so quit whining." Most of my coworkers make more than 6 figures
During the focus group, a senior HR manager said I was her favorite person in the company because of my post Hopefully some of those 100k people learn something from my FUME comment
Recently my employer announced that they were making major changes to the health insurance plan, moving away from a plan where my employer paid 100% of all medical expenses to an HSA plan. I've been doing the optional HSA plan already, and was asked to participate in a focus group to discuss the plan and help sell it to others. On an internal online forum, many people posted anonymously many negative comments, including stating they this would encourage them to seek employment elsewhere. I posted non-anonymously to my 100k coworkers that I chose this plan, what I thought of it, and shared some links to an ERE blog post about HSAs and also to the sticky HSA link at another early retirement forum, along with a note stating something like "this guy lives off 6k a year and retired before he was 35, so quit whining." Most of my coworkers make more than 6 figures
During the focus group, a senior HR manager said I was her favorite person in the company because of my post
Hopefully some of those 100k people learn something from my FUME comment@jeremy, ofcourse, ERE discolure or not, everything will start working to your advantage, if you absolutely have no NEED to stick around anymore and make it known ( there may even be a law for this...like the murphy one ), ie: if you're FI, or even almost 80%-90% there. So, nothing on this thread would apply to you, obviously. From an ERE perspective, technically, you're supposed to be on a beach or something, not in office. so...
), ie: if you're FI, or even almost 80%-90% there. So, nothing on this thread would apply to you, obviously. From an ERE perspective, technically, you're supposed to be on a beach or something, not in office. so... @slacker: I _am_ on the beach, at least through Thanksgiving
Frequent Flyer miles and Starwood Hotel points make for cheap vacations...
In case others took the same tone from my post, my point was this:
A coworker of mine related a comment from a former boss, when he said: "I like to hire smart people with low self-esteem, because I know they will work hard without being challenging for management, and they aren't likely to look for new jobs elsewhere." I don't think anybody wants to be perceived as that low self-esteem employee. The opposite of this perception is probably the saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease
Perhaps related to personality type (ENTJ) I don't keep a low profile regardless of topic, and even when I had student loan debt and minimal savings, I still told my boss I needed a 25% raise at the next review period or I was going to have to find a new job (I did get the raise.) You get what you ask for
My friends, family, coworkers, boss, etc... all know that I will retire early, and if they are interested in learning more they will ask. Done with tact, I have experienced zero negative consequences, but nobody likes a preacher. I've had push back many times, but its pretty easy to direct energy towards only those people that aren't closed off to the idea of ERE
Frequent Flyer miles and Starwood Hotel points make for cheap vacations...
In case others took the same tone from my post, my point was this:
A coworker of mine related a comment from a former boss, when he said: "I like to hire smart people with low self-esteem, because I know they will work hard without being challenging for management, and they aren't likely to look for new jobs elsewhere." I don't think anybody wants to be perceived as that low self-esteem employee. The opposite of this perception is probably the saying that the squeaky wheel gets the grease
Perhaps related to personality type (ENTJ) I don't keep a low profile regardless of topic, and even when I had student loan debt and minimal savings, I still told my boss I needed a 25% raise at the next review period or I was going to have to find a new job (I did get the raise.) You get what you ask for
My friends, family, coworkers, boss, etc... all know that I will retire early, and if they are interested in learning more they will ask. Done with tact, I have experienced zero negative consequences, but nobody likes a preacher. I've had push back many times, but its pretty easy to direct energy towards only those people that aren't closed off to the idea of ERE
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George the original one
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I speak what's on my mind. Some of my bosses who disagree with my point of view can handle that and some can't... but I'm not being myself if I can't express opinions and plans.
Has that hurt my career? Definitely, but in 15 years of working for the same government agency, I've had 7 bosses and 5 of them were removed involuntarily, so the bosses that couldn't handle my frankness are the ones that disappeared.
If I'd been on a true ERE schedule (5-7 years), it would not have mattered much.
Has that hurt my career? Definitely, but in 15 years of working for the same government agency, I've had 7 bosses and 5 of them were removed involuntarily, so the bosses that couldn't handle my frankness are the ones that disappeared.
If I'd been on a true ERE schedule (5-7 years), it would not have mattered much.
I think the "what would happen if everyone pursued ERE" question isn't worth worrying about really. At this point in time the scale is firmly tipped towards the norm of spending 110%. To get to spending 30% and saving 70% would take an 180 degree turn for our society. I don't see the velocity towards 100+ weakening much even with the economic downturn. If this recession really can't change behavior of our society, what would it take... ?
@jeremy: hmmm..well..the squeaky wheel does get all the grease, and then some more- I've seen it happen all the time In all honesty, I am the person your co-worker described. I don't like conflict ( I know..I know..to disagree is not exactly conflict..but well, that's how I precieve it at the hour..and I do all I can to just get it ( the 'conflict') over with..even if it means nodding vigorously in agreement to what I know is absolute bullshit.) It must be an INTP thing? Or not. Anyway, one size indeed doesn't fit all. A tactful ENTJ (most are, aren't they?) eh? you're born to suceed in megacorp BTW..I'll need to find something else to do. Hmm...an INTP friendly career or something.
In all honesty, I am the person your co-worker described. I don't like conflict ( I know..I know..to disagree is not exactly conflict..but well, that's how I precieve it at the hour..and I do all I can to just get it ( the 'conflict') over with..even if it means nodding vigorously in agreement to what I know is absolute bullshit.) It must be an INTP thing? Or not. Anyway, one size indeed doesn't fit all. A tactful ENTJ (most are, aren't they?) eh? you're born to suceed in megacorp BTW..I'll need to find something else to do. Hmm...an INTP friendly career or something.@slacker INTP here too. You sound just like me! I hate arguing even if I'm right. If the best logic doesn't win pretty quickly, what's the point of continuing to argue? It'll all work out fine anyway... The best (least hassle) job situation is to just surround yourself with other rational thinkers. Try a tech startup or maybe a local business too small for much politics.
@S: hmm..the realization of what's happening as it's happening, but not being able to act on it is what makes it all the more difficult. It's not like I believe it all, and then have an aha! moment later, when I can finally see through the whole thing, and can't believe I fell for it! That'd have been better. Thanks for the encouragement!!! I never equated 'best' to 'least hassle' before. It was always about the pay. But now it sure feels like it's time to re-evaluate, even at the cost of it hurting ERE a bit. As an aside, I also trade in the stock markets very actively (well...one other thing to help me ERE), and it is supposed to be taxing and frustrating. But, I'm rarely frustrated by the rigors of it. I can keep at it for hours, and still feel good. Guess it must have something to do with the trading platform not being able to see that I don't have a fake smile plastered on my face as I place my orders, or that I don't greet it every morning....you know what I mean
The biggest "hardship" associated with ERE, for me, has been the negative, often virulently negative, reactions to my dropping to parttime work around the age of 40. I was a commercial bank officer and elected official. Saving 50%-70% of my income was "a piece of cake" compared to the reactions of people.
Comments such as "you have a family", "what about your daughters college" (it was already saved up), "how could you throw away your future and/or career" could literally wear you out as well as creating a sense of apartness from the small town society I live in. If you have lived in a small town for almost all of your life its hard to be a maverick--but after a while everyone just gets used to it.
It helps that I work parttime. My only recommendation for other small town EREers is to just go with the flow and don't take comments personally. I think most people are just perplexed by something new.
djc
Comments such as "you have a family", "what about your daughters college" (it was already saved up), "how could you throw away your future and/or career" could literally wear you out as well as creating a sense of apartness from the small town society I live in. If you have lived in a small town for almost all of your life its hard to be a maverick--but after a while everyone just gets used to it.
It helps that I work parttime. My only recommendation for other small town EREers is to just go with the flow and don't take comments personally. I think most people are just perplexed by something new.
djc
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veganprimate
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Pretty much everything I do is non-mainstream, so I've learned long ago that being a proselytizer doesn't go very far. People are weird creatures. Sometimes, they won't embrace a perfectly good idea b/c someone else told it to them...they didn't discover it themselves. Because they have invested their ego in being the one-who-knows-stuff, if you tell them something new to them, their ego won't let them embrace it.
I know people who believe that if everyone can't or more likely WON'T do something, then it's pointless for anyone to do it.
I have a friend who's in her mid-70's and is still working. Because it's too late for her to retire early, she gets downright angry about the topic. She can't see past her own personal issues and discuss it rationally or even encourage someone much younger than her to do it. It's as if because she got stuck working into her 70's, she wants everyone else to do it, too. Sad.
Jacob said, "I think it's also quite likely that some people can never find work they love. Or more likely, many people can not find work they love which also pays their livelihood (at their current level of expenses)." That is so true. I can't believe how many new age type books I read years ago that talked about finding your passion and doing what you love. I don't believe that everyone has a passion, necessarily. And even if one were passionate about something or multiple somethings, it doesn't follow that the person will have the personality required to make a living with said passion.
I know people who believe that if everyone can't or more likely WON'T do something, then it's pointless for anyone to do it.
I have a friend who's in her mid-70's and is still working. Because it's too late for her to retire early, she gets downright angry about the topic. She can't see past her own personal issues and discuss it rationally or even encourage someone much younger than her to do it. It's as if because she got stuck working into her 70's, she wants everyone else to do it, too. Sad.
Jacob said, "I think it's also quite likely that some people can never find work they love. Or more likely, many people can not find work they love which also pays their livelihood (at their current level of expenses)." That is so true. I can't believe how many new age type books I read years ago that talked about finding your passion and doing what you love. I don't believe that everyone has a passion, necessarily. And even if one were passionate about something or multiple somethings, it doesn't follow that the person will have the personality required to make a living with said passion.