This thread and this list of weaknesses made me wonder whether all of us INTJs are suffering from the same aspects of our personality.
My biggest problem is that I have a very low need for acceptance.
Using the Reiss personality theory, this means I have not developed the skills needed to fit in or ingratiate myself to/with other people. If we put a positive spin on the low need for acceptance, we can say that I'm very self-confident. Other self-confident people will see it that way.
Those who value acceptance highly, though, will see me either as arrogant (and frankly I have no clue when and how that happens and after 35 years still don't understand what I'm doing wrong) or, if I wisely keep my mouth shut, I will be seen as being aloof which is nearly as bad.
The only saving grace is that at least the arrogance is founded in reality. Thus I am never accused of being conceited.
Incidentally, if we go back to Ayn Rand discussion, I believe her definition of "second-handers" was aimed at people who had a high need for acceptance and thus would fit their reality to what other people thought and did rather than nature aka "the real reality". In short, their understanding was/is "second-hand".
Problems with INTJness
I am also an INTJ - I am balanced by my wife who has not taken the test, but most definitely is not. I'm in the same boat as you Jacob - I really don't need people to accept me to be happy. Maybe that's why I'm still friends with people who I've known more than half my life (over 15 years) - it's almost like they accept me by default - I don't have to pretend to be something I'm not.
I think that I could be perceived as arrogant as well, I generally don't talk a lot in crowds, I tend to listen rather than say something that may offend other people (which sometimes happens). It's not so much shyness, more it's just easier that way....
I agree with the self-confidence spin. I generally have few doubts in my skills, be it a sport or intellectually.
I think that I could be perceived as arrogant as well, I generally don't talk a lot in crowds, I tend to listen rather than say something that may offend other people (which sometimes happens). It's not so much shyness, more it's just easier that way....
I agree with the self-confidence spin. I generally have few doubts in my skills, be it a sport or intellectually.
My definition of arrogance is someone who demands their point of view be taken as truth without question, and wants no part of anyone's own opinion on the subject. Referencing a phrase by Mike Huckabee on FOX News "Huckabee" show: He closes his dialog with "Well, this is my view, and I welcome yours". This is an anti- arrogant, and quite pleasant personality trait. I think anyone who can truthfully make that phrase as a part of their personality also shows a high degree of self confidence.
None of have a tight lock on all subjects. I think people are more at ease with you once you show you, too, are lacking knowledge, yet are remaining confident you can find the answer.
"The wise man has much council"
None of have a tight lock on all subjects. I think people are more at ease with you once you show you, too, are lacking knowledge, yet are remaining confident you can find the answer.
"The wise man has much council"
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jacob
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So this is where the problem enters.
The INTJ has no personal vesting in anything he believes, however, he is only prepared to accept a logical argument. The INTJ is able to flip position on a coin admitting "you are right and I am wrong and now I see why".
Conversely, many people are a) not ready to accept a logical argument and b) mix their personality with their position.
Hence, the INTJs pursuit of truth is seen as an arrogant incursion. The INTJ does not understand this because the incursion goes completely unobserved (how can one's personal opinion ever be relevant to the truth) and the logical method is seen as aggressive.
(I know this in theory. I'm not good at practicing it, because it is very difficult to emulate.)
The INTJ has no personal vesting in anything he believes, however, he is only prepared to accept a logical argument. The INTJ is able to flip position on a coin admitting "you are right and I am wrong and now I see why".
Conversely, many people are a) not ready to accept a logical argument and b) mix their personality with their position.
Hence, the INTJs pursuit of truth is seen as an arrogant incursion. The INTJ does not understand this because the incursion goes completely unobserved (how can one's personal opinion ever be relevant to the truth) and the logical method is seen as aggressive.
(I know this in theory. I'm not good at practicing it, because it is very difficult to emulate.)
LOL, yes, people can build their entire adult lives on some idea they've never analyzed -to question it could be devastating... I seem to be most attracted to the idealist type and many of our discussions have ended in them crying and in a catatonic state of denial. :\
This is a huge one for me:
*May see so many tangents everywhere that they can't stay focused on the bottom line or the big picture.
I am so intent on doing everything well, that sometimes it can be hard to make great progress. I try to recognize and be satisfied with “good enough” and move ahead.
I am easily distracted and amused. I read that INTJs are rarely bored and I agree. Note taking and strict adherence to task lists help tremendously.
*May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others.
I have a hard time understanding people who say they want something, but take literally no action to attain it... I've spent (hopefully not wasted) huge amounts of energy trying to help people, even when it becomes apparent they are obviously less interested in their improvement than I am. I now usually wait for help to be asked, rather than offer it so freely. Lead a horse to water...
I try to keep my guard up for these in social situations, especially if I've been drinking:
*May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it
*May look at external ideas and people with the primary purpose of finding fault
*May believe that they're always right
This is a huge one for me:
*May see so many tangents everywhere that they can't stay focused on the bottom line or the big picture.
I am so intent on doing everything well, that sometimes it can be hard to make great progress. I try to recognize and be satisfied with “good enough” and move ahead.
I am easily distracted and amused. I read that INTJs are rarely bored and I agree. Note taking and strict adherence to task lists help tremendously.
*May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others.
I have a hard time understanding people who say they want something, but take literally no action to attain it... I've spent (hopefully not wasted) huge amounts of energy trying to help people, even when it becomes apparent they are obviously less interested in their improvement than I am. I now usually wait for help to be asked, rather than offer it so freely. Lead a horse to water...
I try to keep my guard up for these in social situations, especially if I've been drinking:
*May quickly dismiss input from others without really considering it
*May look at external ideas and people with the primary purpose of finding fault
*May believe that they're always right
These are my 2 biggest issues:
*May apply their judgment more often towards others, rather than towards themselves
*May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others
I've learned to slow down when I talk to people and let my thoughts sit for a few seconds before letting my words escape.
*May apply their judgment more often towards others, rather than towards themselves
*May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others
I've learned to slow down when I talk to people and let my thoughts sit for a few seconds before letting my words escape.
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jacob
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*May have unrealistic and/or unreasonable expectations of others
That is, "may have the same high expectations of others that they do of themselves".
As a result, INTJs usually start out high. Then discover that others don't follow. Then INTJs try to compensate in their usual socially inept way (due to their lack of skills in seeking acceptance) by lowering their expectation level. (Uhh.. do you know what a proton is then?) With the lack of social grace this comes across as being condescending.
I get that one a lot too.
That is, "may have the same high expectations of others that they do of themselves".
As a result, INTJs usually start out high. Then discover that others don't follow. Then INTJs try to compensate in their usual socially inept way (due to their lack of skills in seeking acceptance) by lowering their expectation level. (Uhh.. do you know what a proton is then?) With the lack of social grace this comes across as being condescending.
I get that one a lot too.
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Steve Austin
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I haven't taken the temperament test for years, but still "self-identify" as INTJ, and believe that it is my core. In another thread (perhaps the comment thread to the ERE personality blog post), someone wise said that with personal growth and experience (read: years of struggle in the universe) comes a balancing of personality. I recall something in the temperament literature about "X" being used when one tests 5/5 in a category. e.g. XNTJ would be someone who scored 5x E and 5x I of the 10 questions. So, would the ideal (for us here) be someone who started life as a "natural" INTJ, but who has learned to *operate* as an XXXX (4X?) when interfacing with the universe? ;-\
Back to this thread, I wanted to share what several mechanisms I have developed to facilitate INTJ-to-Universe communication, on my road to "4X":
* unfortunately, one must embrace some temporary pretense for the purposes of "getting in" to a particular conversation -- the good news is that it's just an intentional mechanism and it does not infect one's inner INTJ core: when you know you are right, you *must pretend* that you do not believe that you are absolutely right, e.g. "That's a strong point. It's possible that you are right and that I am wrong, but for the sake of this little argument, let's consider what the world would look like if I were right, and then compare that world to this world and get a sense of whether it's possible, or maybe probable, that I am right." That's actually a little more strongly worded that I pull off for real. There is more to it than the words; a modest demeanor is key, modest but still with a laser focus on the facts and the direction of the discourse. This is a modified form of "The Colombo". Read the 2nd paragraph here, and if you understand this, you can perhaps see how this applies to INTJ life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo_%2 ... estigation
* you *must not dismiss* any input from others! this is not just a matter of politeness, it's a matter of approaching the Universe as if there is always something to learn -- there may not always be something to learn, but that can only be ascertained after a moderate level of investigation. In a social situation, find some little quantum of interest in some little corner of someone's remark, and drill down as hard as you possibly cannot without crossing the creepiness / insane boundary (that balance is a different skill). You asking the question endears you to those around you. Quite often, I have found that I really can learn something useful from someone whom I thought I could not (and would not wish to) learn anything. The connection won't be on the order of INTJ-to-INTJ conversational serendipity, but it often feels good to have put in a strong effort on something social, even if the yield is not retirement portfolio ready.
Back to this thread, I wanted to share what several mechanisms I have developed to facilitate INTJ-to-Universe communication, on my road to "4X":
* unfortunately, one must embrace some temporary pretense for the purposes of "getting in" to a particular conversation -- the good news is that it's just an intentional mechanism and it does not infect one's inner INTJ core: when you know you are right, you *must pretend* that you do not believe that you are absolutely right, e.g. "That's a strong point. It's possible that you are right and that I am wrong, but for the sake of this little argument, let's consider what the world would look like if I were right, and then compare that world to this world and get a sense of whether it's possible, or maybe probable, that I am right." That's actually a little more strongly worded that I pull off for real. There is more to it than the words; a modest demeanor is key, modest but still with a laser focus on the facts and the direction of the discourse. This is a modified form of "The Colombo". Read the 2nd paragraph here, and if you understand this, you can perhaps see how this applies to INTJ life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbo_%2 ... estigation
* you *must not dismiss* any input from others! this is not just a matter of politeness, it's a matter of approaching the Universe as if there is always something to learn -- there may not always be something to learn, but that can only be ascertained after a moderate level of investigation. In a social situation, find some little quantum of interest in some little corner of someone's remark, and drill down as hard as you possibly cannot without crossing the creepiness / insane boundary (that balance is a different skill). You asking the question endears you to those around you. Quite often, I have found that I really can learn something useful from someone whom I thought I could not (and would not wish to) learn anything. The connection won't be on the order of INTJ-to-INTJ conversational serendipity, but it often feels good to have put in a strong effort on something social, even if the yield is not retirement portfolio ready.
I look in every conversation for something to learn. Some people will give you minute information, and others will spill their guts on and on giving you detail after detail on a subject. We refer to these people as practicing TMI or Too Much Information.
A joke is that a girl asks her mother a question. Mother says "Why not ask your father?" Girl says, "Because I really don't want to know that much about it".
I do want input from others. However I want it to be useful to me. Don't know if I am INTJ, but I think it's fair to have at least one tidbit of useful data from a conversation?
Wouldn't you think so?
A joke is that a girl asks her mother a question. Mother says "Why not ask your father?" Girl says, "Because I really don't want to know that much about it".
I do want input from others. However I want it to be useful to me. Don't know if I am INTJ, but I think it's fair to have at least one tidbit of useful data from a conversation?
Wouldn't you think so?
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Night Runner
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Usually, I'm not the kind that blatantly advertises other sites, but I strongly advise all of you to visit www.intjforum.com - as the name implies, it's a forum for people like us. 
Every topic and tangent that's been mentioned so far is discussed there in great (and I mean *great*) length.
That forum doesn't have too many outspoken experts on ERE, so it would be a mutually beneficial arrangement. (Woot for brain power!)
Every topic and tangent that's been mentioned so far is discussed there in great (and I mean *great*) length. That forum doesn't have too many outspoken experts on ERE, so it would be a mutually beneficial arrangement. (Woot for brain power!)
I'm with Steve Austin here. Some call it balance, others call it average or well-rounded, I call it diversity. While my core preference is INTJ, I've been learning to develop my E and lately shift to the P side. I don't think I "betray" myself by learning to change the gear when situation calls for it.
I don't see the merit in holding on to certain trait/characteristic for the sake of 'consistency' when it is no longer valid/useful in your life. Surely you don't have to let go of one trait completely but I wouldn't go through life being exactly the same person.
I don't see the merit in holding on to certain trait/characteristic for the sake of 'consistency' when it is no longer valid/useful in your life. Surely you don't have to let go of one trait completely but I wouldn't go through life being exactly the same person.