My girlfriend's parent are divorced and almost 60. And her dad is jobless and about to be divorced again from his new wife and on they have money problems (I already borrowed them 2500 euro's to make sure they would survive.. they have 2 kids and I know from my own past how money worries can influence a child). Her mom has a simple job for 200 euro's a month.
The problem for both of them is that they will not get any pension because they have not saved for it and apparently have never payed for the Bulgarian pension system. I don't know exactly what and how.. I only know that they will not be getting any money from the government.
Last week my girl's mother broke her ankle due to ice and currently is in the hospital. I agreed to pay the expenses and I also said it is fine to cover her expenses as long as she can't work (she will not get disability money). Covering these 'little' expenses is fine with me.. things just happens and I'll get the money back (I always have).
But what worries me, especially triggered by this event, is that at some point in time, both of them will not be able to work. And the question is who is going to support them. To be very honest; I'm not willing to pay for them. I don't see a valid reason to give my live energy to them.. I work hard and I'm saving for early retirement and I they had the time to think about pension for a very long time.. but didn't. They are also not my parents.
The problem is that in practice an agreement will be hard to follow since at some point in time things are going to happen and my girl of course wants to help her parents. Even if we don't give any money, but we take care of them by taking them in, it will cost money. Food, bigger house etc. Luckily she has some money (she bought an appartement as an investment and the apartment of her mom is fully paid), her sister makes money (although also spends a lot of it) and there is some money in the family (especially on her mothers side).
So how to deal with these pending liabilities?
girlfriend family liability
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LiquidSapphire
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- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
If you have been together a while and think you might be with your girlfriend for the long term, you should probably start by talking to her about it first. Does she want to take care of them? Does she expect you to take care of them? If she says no, do you believe her, or do you think she is going to have a change of heart when times get hard? Will you?
One possible solution might be to arrange something where you provide them with resources (money, place to live etc) and in return you receive all assets upon death such as the apartment (formal agreement such as a will). Another option is to just suck it up and save for a basic level of subsistence for them. Maybe it'll work out; if they live with you and you have kids you could have free child care.
One possible solution might be to arrange something where you provide them with resources (money, place to live etc) and in return you receive all assets upon death such as the apartment (formal agreement such as a will). Another option is to just suck it up and save for a basic level of subsistence for them. Maybe it'll work out; if they live with you and you have kids you could have free child care.
Another possibility is to just ditch the girlfriend, though I'm sure that isn't a great answer.
My real worry in all of this is that the girlfriend can't pay for all the things you are paying for now. If she can't help them out a little at this time, it seems like she is headed down the same path as her parents.
Unless when you say "you", you actually mean the combined finances of you and your girlfriend.
My real worry in all of this is that the girlfriend can't pay for all the things you are paying for now. If she can't help them out a little at this time, it seems like she is headed down the same path as her parents.
Unless when you say "you", you actually mean the combined finances of you and your girlfriend.
Hi Liquid Sapphire,
I have been with my girl for a bit more than a year.
I have talked to her about it; the idea is that she is going to take care of her mom and her sister is going to take care of her dad. But in all honesty, I don't see the latter happening. Her sister earns well (she works abroad), but doesn't save. She is going to get married and probably she is going to end her job (there will be a lot of layoffs... she is a stewardess). And they are going to live in a different country; libanon (the home country of her soon to be husband).
I don't know if she expects me to take care of them.. I don't think she thinks about this too much.
Providing them resources is not really an option for me since I don't believe it is fair. Why should I take care for people that don't take care of themselves.. and why should I take care for people that are not my blood relatives. I would rather help my nieces with their study. It sounds hard.. and I also realize that it doesn't sound like being a very good partner in a relationship. But my responsibilities go towards myself, my girl and our dog and in the future our children.
I understand that all this sounds hard, but I'm currently the first place to go to when my girl her family runs into money problems and till so far I have always helped them out. So I'm not that bad of a guy as I may appear to be in my words.
I have been with my girl for a bit more than a year.
I have talked to her about it; the idea is that she is going to take care of her mom and her sister is going to take care of her dad. But in all honesty, I don't see the latter happening. Her sister earns well (she works abroad), but doesn't save. She is going to get married and probably she is going to end her job (there will be a lot of layoffs... she is a stewardess). And they are going to live in a different country; libanon (the home country of her soon to be husband).
I don't know if she expects me to take care of them.. I don't think she thinks about this too much.
Providing them resources is not really an option for me since I don't believe it is fair. Why should I take care for people that don't take care of themselves.. and why should I take care for people that are not my blood relatives. I would rather help my nieces with their study. It sounds hard.. and I also realize that it doesn't sound like being a very good partner in a relationship. But my responsibilities go towards myself, my girl and our dog and in the future our children.
I understand that all this sounds hard, but I'm currently the first place to go to when my girl her family runs into money problems and till so far I have always helped them out. So I'm not that bad of a guy as I may appear to be in my words.
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
"I understand that all this sounds hard, but I'm currently the first place to go to when my girl her family runs into money problems and till so far I have always helped them out."
Are you sure that isn't the only (or main) reason why your girlfriend is with you in the first place?
I'm sorry if it comes across as rude or harsh, but I've seen plenty of cases of women in developing countries latching on to a boyfriend more for the financial assistance that he provides than for anything else. If I was dating a girl and she told me she needed money for her family, that'd be a very justifiable reason to dump her.
Are you sure that isn't the only (or main) reason why your girlfriend is with you in the first place?
I'm sorry if it comes across as rude or harsh, but I've seen plenty of cases of women in developing countries latching on to a boyfriend more for the financial assistance that he provides than for anything else. If I was dating a girl and she told me she needed money for her family, that'd be a very justifiable reason to dump her.
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RealPerson
- Posts: 875
- Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm
I don't think you are being hard at all. You are forward thinking and very rational. Those people are not your parents and you and your girlfriend are not even married.
Since you mention your future children, I assume you are serious about this relationship. If that is the case, you are between a rock and a hard place. This issue will always weigh on you and your relationship. Even if your girlfriend doesn't ask for anything, she will feel terrible seeing her parents live in poverty.
I think the very best solution would be that your girlfriend commits to contributing 50% to your household expenses, and supports whoever else she feels she wants to support with what is left over of her income. That way you are not supporting her parents. Anything else is going to frustrate you, and this will probably get worse over time. Your girlfriend should expect her parents to first use up their assets (sell apartment etc) before any support happens. You are absolutely correct in not wanting to support people who don't wish to take care of themselves.
Since you mention your future children, I assume you are serious about this relationship. If that is the case, you are between a rock and a hard place. This issue will always weigh on you and your relationship. Even if your girlfriend doesn't ask for anything, she will feel terrible seeing her parents live in poverty.
I think the very best solution would be that your girlfriend commits to contributing 50% to your household expenses, and supports whoever else she feels she wants to support with what is left over of her income. That way you are not supporting her parents. Anything else is going to frustrate you, and this will probably get worse over time. Your girlfriend should expect her parents to first use up their assets (sell apartment etc) before any support happens. You are absolutely correct in not wanting to support people who don't wish to take care of themselves.
Clash of the old world and the new. Tradition says the young take care of the old. The modern world says the old pay into a system and (in theory) take care of themselves. You are being squashed between the two and burdened by both. I feel for you.
1) Perhaps you could begin to cultivate an aura of poverty. Start talking about mysterious expenses involving your own family. Make it known that you do not have resources to take care of them.
2) You might move to a smaller place where there is simply no room for her parents to live.
3) You might move further away so you are not the first person they think of when trouble occurs.
4) You could insist that her sister shares the burden equally and offer up only your portion.
5) You could encourage her parents to move in with siblings, cousins, or friends.
The goal is to slowly ween them off the idea that you are the big bank account they return to each time they have a problem.
Or accept your new life and the family bank.
1) Perhaps you could begin to cultivate an aura of poverty. Start talking about mysterious expenses involving your own family. Make it known that you do not have resources to take care of them.
2) You might move to a smaller place where there is simply no room for her parents to live.
3) You might move further away so you are not the first person they think of when trouble occurs.
4) You could insist that her sister shares the burden equally and offer up only your portion.
5) You could encourage her parents to move in with siblings, cousins, or friends.
The goal is to slowly ween them off the idea that you are the big bank account they return to each time they have a problem.
Or accept your new life and the family bank.
In agreeance with RealPerson. You are not mean or bad for not wanting support your partners parents.
You will need to talk this over with your partner in some detail.
It appears you are willing to support them somewhat. What is the maximum value you are willing to contribute to supporting them?
You are somewhat in the situation where you will be getting two dependents by being in this relationship.
You'd be prudent to find out if you not supporting your partners parents at all is a dealbreaker for your partner. Also you need to think on whether entirely supporting your partners parents is a dealbreaker for you.
That is your start point to further discussion.
If you are ok with having two dependents then comming to some arrangement as per LiquidSapphire's advice seems like a sensible way forward
@SecretWealth
Your statement "in developing countries" implies that the same thing does not happen in every country. It does happen. I don't mean to be aggressive or argumentative, I just personally feel it is important to highlight this particular feature of society.
You will need to talk this over with your partner in some detail.
It appears you are willing to support them somewhat. What is the maximum value you are willing to contribute to supporting them?
You are somewhat in the situation where you will be getting two dependents by being in this relationship.
You'd be prudent to find out if you not supporting your partners parents at all is a dealbreaker for your partner. Also you need to think on whether entirely supporting your partners parents is a dealbreaker for you.
That is your start point to further discussion.
If you are ok with having two dependents then comming to some arrangement as per LiquidSapphire's advice seems like a sensible way forward
@SecretWealth
Your statement "in developing countries" implies that the same thing does not happen in every country. It does happen. I don't mean to be aggressive or argumentative, I just personally feel it is important to highlight this particular feature of society.
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
Nothing is free. This kind of thing generally gets worse with time. Stop paying and see what happens. Heck, you need to become Scrooge McDuck right now. Your girlfriend may leave but do you really want to continue in this path?
Heck no am I somebody else's ERE plan!
I used to be more idealistic about love. Then I met this coworker who married a much younger mate. The coworker explained it was a mercenary exchange because the mate needed support. The marriage actually works but two of the spouses friends are now living in the guest room as part of their social welfare program.
I have a brother and father who both got involved with spouses from impoverished backgrounds. At first they bragged about how young and beautiful they were but now they financially support half a dozen people in another country...none of those people have jobs. Now they complain. Nothing is free dude.
So I say turn up the Scrooge filter 11 and see what happens. I'm sleeping alone with only an electric blanket to keep me warm but I'm leech free.
Heck no am I somebody else's ERE plan!
I used to be more idealistic about love. Then I met this coworker who married a much younger mate. The coworker explained it was a mercenary exchange because the mate needed support. The marriage actually works but two of the spouses friends are now living in the guest room as part of their social welfare program.
I have a brother and father who both got involved with spouses from impoverished backgrounds. At first they bragged about how young and beautiful they were but now they financially support half a dozen people in another country...none of those people have jobs. Now they complain. Nothing is free dude.
So I say turn up the Scrooge filter 11 and see what happens. I'm sleeping alone with only an electric blanket to keep me warm but I'm leech free.
Bulgaria
Its a tough spot to be in. Speak to your partner. Ask her what she would do if the roles were reversed and she had to support your parents. You need to get her on your side first. Then you can both agree what is reasonable (in terms of how long you will help and how much) and speak to her parents. If they agree they need to get in shape financially then I think it can turn out OK. I am encouraged that they have always paid you back, and accidents and bad health are not really their fault ... you just have to set clear limits as others suggested.
Its a tough spot to be in. Speak to your partner. Ask her what she would do if the roles were reversed and she had to support your parents. You need to get her on your side first. Then you can both agree what is reasonable (in terms of how long you will help and how much) and speak to her parents. If they agree they need to get in shape financially then I think it can turn out OK. I am encouraged that they have always paid you back, and accidents and bad health are not really their fault ... you just have to set clear limits as others suggested.
Asking the partner what she would do sounds great in theory, but it requires that she is honest with the OP, honest with herself, plus... if we assume that the OP's parents are in ok or better shape financially then she can say what she wants knowing there will be no consequences down the road. That's not to say its not a good starting point for a conversation on the issue, but I would be cautious putting too much weight on what she answers to that question.
I'm in the camp its for the best if you let your partner know your feelings on the subject now and don't spare any punches. If she can't handle it, its best to know this now rather than 10 years down the road. If your relationship is with her, and not her family, say so. Its best to find out her priorities as well.
I'm in the camp its for the best if you let your partner know your feelings on the subject now and don't spare any punches. If she can't handle it, its best to know this now rather than 10 years down the road. If your relationship is with her, and not her family, say so. Its best to find out her priorities as well.
I feel your pain.
This is harsh to say, but your girlfriend's parents are in their situation because they didn't plan ahead or save. I don't blame you at all for not wanting to support them.
I'm in a very similar situation, except I am married. Due to extreme financial mismanagement, my 77 year-old mother in law is near destitute. My 40-something year-old sister-in-law, who is also very bad off financially, makes the rounds by living with various family members and mooching off them for several months at a time.
Most importantly, you should talk with your girlfriend to learn about her plans for taking care of her parents and her expectations of you. Coming to an agreement and remaining united is critical, if you hope to have a happy future together.
All of Ego's suggestions are excellent. In our case, cultivating an aura of poverty and living in a very small home has been very helpful. For instance, we drive older cars and wear ratty clothing, especially around my husband's family. If family members visit, they can stay one night on our couch. I also make a point of mentioning how we don't have cable TV, cell phones, etc., which my in-laws interpret as a sign of poverty. Because we are perceived as poor, they are much less likely to view us as their personal ATM, at least for now (sigh).
This is harsh to say, but your girlfriend's parents are in their situation because they didn't plan ahead or save. I don't blame you at all for not wanting to support them.
I'm in a very similar situation, except I am married. Due to extreme financial mismanagement, my 77 year-old mother in law is near destitute. My 40-something year-old sister-in-law, who is also very bad off financially, makes the rounds by living with various family members and mooching off them for several months at a time.
Most importantly, you should talk with your girlfriend to learn about her plans for taking care of her parents and her expectations of you. Coming to an agreement and remaining united is critical, if you hope to have a happy future together.
All of Ego's suggestions are excellent. In our case, cultivating an aura of poverty and living in a very small home has been very helpful. For instance, we drive older cars and wear ratty clothing, especially around my husband's family. If family members visit, they can stay one night on our couch. I also make a point of mentioning how we don't have cable TV, cell phones, etc., which my in-laws interpret as a sign of poverty. Because we are perceived as poor, they are much less likely to view us as their personal ATM, at least for now (sigh).
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secretwealth
- Posts: 1948
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:31 am
"Speak to your partner. Ask her what she would do if the roles were reversed and she had to support your parents. You need to get her on your side first. "
I think this is pretty good advice, as long as it is balanced with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've heard too many stories of guys getting psychologically manipulated by bargirls in Thailand to think this is a panacea. Sure, listen, but also listen for clues that you're being played.
I think this is pretty good advice, as long as it is balanced with a healthy dose of skepticism. I've heard too many stories of guys getting psychologically manipulated by bargirls in Thailand to think this is a panacea. Sure, listen, but also listen for clues that you're being played.
Some more information;
My girl doesn't have an income, so I'm the one providing. Local incomes are very low. Personally I would be perfectly fine if she spends her income completely on her own financial situation or that of her parents. She doesn't need to share our expenses.
I'm sure my girl is not a gold digger. Things are how they are.. She has earned quite a lot of money while she was a stewardess abroad (that is how she afforded her apartment). And she also was very eager to spend it on the people close to her. Although she is very frugal, she doesn't really care for pension and other things far far away. I'm sure that if roles would be reversed, she would give money to my parents.
I do not want to marry; I don't see a reason for that. I don't really believe in ever lasting love. People get together.. they learn from each other. Perhaps you grow in the same direction, perhaps you grow in different directions. So enjoy the time you have together, but don't stick together because you are supposed to. Marriage also means that I have financial responsibilities after the emotional responsibilities have ended; this is not a good thing. Luckily we agreed upon not marrying, although the marriage of her younger sister gives her the feeling of being left behind.
My parents: I don't have contact with my dad for almost 15 years, apart from my the funeral of my grandfather where he caused a lot of stress and grief:
- picking fights with my mother at the death bed of my grandfather
- forcing his grandchildren to be with him
- a lawsuit to exclude my mom and sister from the funeral
He changes a lot due to some strokes, depression etc. He has become a different person and this was the last time we'll deal with each other. He will get sufficient pension from the state and he is not going to get a penny from me. My mother; although I love her a lot, she will get a pension from the state as well, but since so smokes away 20% of her income, I don't see any reason to support her financially. I'm going to give her 2500 euro's in a few months when she is going to divorce her new husband to make sure that her house is a nice place to live in and she doesn't get into debt.
So I'll have another conversion with her about this subject and I'll also explain that from my side it isn't really an option to support them financially all the time. I want to be a free person, free from financial obligations.
My girl doesn't have an income, so I'm the one providing. Local incomes are very low. Personally I would be perfectly fine if she spends her income completely on her own financial situation or that of her parents. She doesn't need to share our expenses.
I'm sure my girl is not a gold digger. Things are how they are.. She has earned quite a lot of money while she was a stewardess abroad (that is how she afforded her apartment). And she also was very eager to spend it on the people close to her. Although she is very frugal, she doesn't really care for pension and other things far far away. I'm sure that if roles would be reversed, she would give money to my parents.
I do not want to marry; I don't see a reason for that. I don't really believe in ever lasting love. People get together.. they learn from each other. Perhaps you grow in the same direction, perhaps you grow in different directions. So enjoy the time you have together, but don't stick together because you are supposed to. Marriage also means that I have financial responsibilities after the emotional responsibilities have ended; this is not a good thing. Luckily we agreed upon not marrying, although the marriage of her younger sister gives her the feeling of being left behind.
My parents: I don't have contact with my dad for almost 15 years, apart from my the funeral of my grandfather where he caused a lot of stress and grief:
- picking fights with my mother at the death bed of my grandfather
- forcing his grandchildren to be with him
- a lawsuit to exclude my mom and sister from the funeral
He changes a lot due to some strokes, depression etc. He has become a different person and this was the last time we'll deal with each other. He will get sufficient pension from the state and he is not going to get a penny from me. My mother; although I love her a lot, she will get a pension from the state as well, but since so smokes away 20% of her income, I don't see any reason to support her financially. I'm going to give her 2500 euro's in a few months when she is going to divorce her new husband to make sure that her house is a nice place to live in and she doesn't get into debt.
So I'll have another conversion with her about this subject and I'll also explain that from my side it isn't really an option to support them financially all the time. I want to be a free person, free from financial obligations.
Hi,
just a comment on your girlfriends parents: That they have no pension is also a result of major socioeconomic change in Bulgaria from socialism to an EU country. I think its hard to blame them personally for having lived in an oppressed society with no way out for the most part of their live.
But that doesn't help you.
Possible solutions: see what other pensioners get in Bulgaria, I think it "only" around 200 euro. Just take that as an expense, its not too much for a western money earner. Or let the parents go to the Netherlands, your home country. Then they can get social security there. Or let them sell/rent out their property (maybe very hard to achieve, but you could facilitate it).
just a comment on your girlfriends parents: That they have no pension is also a result of major socioeconomic change in Bulgaria from socialism to an EU country. I think its hard to blame them personally for having lived in an oppressed society with no way out for the most part of their live.
But that doesn't help you.
Possible solutions: see what other pensioners get in Bulgaria, I think it "only" around 200 euro. Just take that as an expense, its not too much for a western money earner. Or let the parents go to the Netherlands, your home country. Then they can get social security there. Or let them sell/rent out their property (maybe very hard to achieve, but you could facilitate it).
Giving them money is not really an option for me; it isn't fair, they are not my parents and even my parents need to take care of themselves.
If I need to give them both 200 euro's a month, so 400 euro's in total, that is 50% of my initial financial independence goal (cost of living is quite low). In other words, I need to work a few years extra to take care of them; unacceptable.
Sending the parents to Holland is not an option;they will not be allowed there since they have no financial means and would only be a burdon to the state.
I'll have a good talk about it with my girl; else she just needs to get a job and start earning money for her parents. It isn't my task.
If I need to give them both 200 euro's a month, so 400 euro's in total, that is 50% of my initial financial independence goal (cost of living is quite low). In other words, I need to work a few years extra to take care of them; unacceptable.
Sending the parents to Holland is not an option;they will not be allowed there since they have no financial means and would only be a burdon to the state.
I'll have a good talk about it with my girl; else she just needs to get a job and start earning money for her parents. It isn't my task.
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George the original one
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If you (or preferably your girlfriend) only need to work 2 more years in order to provide a cushion to her parents, then I think it's a reasonable tradeoff to work a little bit longer.
I'm not suggesting that you become 100% responsible for their income (or even 50%), rather that there is extra available. If that extra doesn't get used for their care, you (or her) will find some other use for it eventually.
I'm not suggesting that you become 100% responsible for their income (or even 50%), rather that there is extra available. If that extra doesn't get used for their care, you (or her) will find some other use for it eventually.
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Christopherjart
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