Personality Test

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ThisDinosaur
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Re: Personality Test

Post by ThisDinosaur » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:38 pm

workathome wrote:
Tue May 27, 2014 8:16 pm
I am INTP and DW is ISFJ. We hit it off being both introverted and shy, lol, but we definitely have some personality conflicts.
I'm an INTJ, and I always avoided dating other introverts. Seems like it would make both people progressively more antisocial. Extroverted girlfriends would always force me to go out and do stuff. So when coworkers and classmates asked me "what'd you do this weekend?" I'd actually have something to say.

OTOH, I completely understand the opposite argument. If you want an intimate relationship, but hate social engagements, you shouldn't have to suffer one to maintain the other.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:51 pm
Sex hormones don't change innate personality.
Disagree. Prenatal testosterone has measurable permanent effects on human and animal brains. And "Roid rage" in adults is a real phenomenon.
Devil's Advocate wrote:
Fri May 30, 2014 8:55 am
But then, I suppose people could have said the same about masculine and feminine personality traits two hundred years ago. And about white and black personality traits.
A personality categorizing scheme that doesnt consider gender and culture is probably missing a major part of the picture. People and there behaviors/preferences are majorly effected by these things. That's why humans tend to hold stereotypes. They are [the result of] our innate data compression algorithms. Stereotypes are frequently incorrect, but they exist as a shorthand in the form of "person X is in group Y, so I expect them to have more of trait Z than the general population."

What are we hoping to get out of MBTI as a categorization scheme? Insight into how to best communicate with others based on their "type." Are there better ways to accomplish this?

Clarice
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Re: Personality Test

Post by Clarice » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:50 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:38 pm

What are we hoping to get out of MBTI as a categorization scheme? Insight into how to best communicate with others based on their "type." Are there better ways to accomplish this?
Well, since you've asked... IMHO, the best way to type someone is with the help of not only temperaments but also interaction styles. You'll end up with the mental 4X4 grid of 4 temperaments (Guardians, Artisans, Intellectuals, and Idealists) by 4 interaction styles(Starters, Finishers, Controllers, and Behind-the-Scene people). You go through a process of elimination - and voila! You've typed someone. Once you've typed someone, you know his cognitive functions. You've got the 8 strings to pull. I bet you know the temperaments. To learn interaction styles read Linda V. Berens An Introduction to Interaction Styles (Understanding Yourself and Others series).

daylen
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Re: Personality Test

Post by daylen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:21 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:38 pm
Disagree. Prenatal testosterone has measurable permanent effects on human and animal brains. And "Roid rage" in adults is a real phenomenon.

What are we hoping to get out of MBTI as a categorization scheme? Insight into how to best communicate with others based on their "type." Are there better ways to accomplish this?
Depends on what 7w5 meant by innate.

The second part depends on what you mean by better. Many people can socialize just fine without models. Is it better to think or not to think?

Deconstruction constricts choices (negative morality) but does not tell you what to do (positive morality).

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Personality Test

Post by ThisDinosaur » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:29 pm

@Clarice
Yeah, I saw the C.S. Joseph video with the 4x4 grid, at your suggestion. It certainly makes typing someone seem easier.

But he loses me when he says that an INTJ "automatically" has ENTP unconscious and ESFP subconscious and SE inferior insecurities....... and that this scheme is "100% accurate."
Color me skeptical.

What's the mechanism by which you could possibly know all that? Is there any evidence at all that you can know someone's insecurities based on where you estimate their place on that 4x4 grid?
daylen wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:21 pm
The second part depends on what you mean by better. Many people can socialize just fine without models.
I'm not one of those people.
viewtopic.php?t=8875
By better, I mean a way that actually works. Reliably. To improve communication between people who think differently. To allow someone with this knowledge to predict how others will react to the things they say.

It's possible that if I were to read more MBTI literature and practice C.S. Joseph's rapid typing, I would improve my EQ substantially. However, I haven't put much effort into it because I believe it has a low probability of success. I believe this because the community of specialists who study personality have rejected MBTI. And because I dont see any evidence that it's any better than horoscopes and palm reading.

daylen
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Re: Personality Test

Post by daylen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:23 pm

I am skeptical of the 4-grid model as well.
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:29 pm
By better, I mean a way that actually works. Reliably. To improve communication between people who think differently. To allow someone with this knowledge to predict how others will react to the things they say.
Here is the root of the problem. Language is highly complex and any type can react to it in dramatically different ways based on context and nurture.

Personality is less dependent on language and more about behaviorial tendency across many different contexts.

jacob
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Re: Personality Test

Post by jacob » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:00 pm

Here's the communications problem. I don't know what the name for this model is but it must have one since it seems trivial. Without loss of generality, a message is transmitted from one person to another like this:

What I think ------->How I speak my thought -----> How you listen to what I say -----> What you think about it.

Each arrow is a filter. Lets call them brain2voice, voice2ear, and ear2brain.

You can easily demonstrate how shitty these wetware filters are by playing a few rounds of Telephone.

If you're talking to yourself, then the three filters are identical. Your biggest potential communications problem will be an inability to turn a thought into words (brain2voice). The art of writing or speaking is that skill. However, once you've done that you have no problems understanding the important part of the words (voice2ear) and putting them in their right context (ear2brain). That is because all these filters are the same one filter and one you understand really well (you have a lifetime's worth of experience).

If you want to communicate a message to other people, you're dealing 2 different filters (voice2ear and ear2brain) for each and every single person you talk to. If you have perfect knowledge of all these filters you can communicate well with that person. This is probably the case with your spouse at least eventually. It's not the case if you find yourself complaining that "they just don't get me". In that case, you might try rephrasing (voice2ear). If that doesn't work either, the problem is in the ear2brain filter.

What ThisDinosaur is requesting is a complete set of filters that actually works reliably (100%?) with everybody.

We don't have that.

What we do have is a set of 16 ear2brain and 16 brain2voice filters called MBTI which you can try and tune on the fly once you get comfortable with them. Alternatively, we have 4 temperament ear2brain filters and 4 interaction style voice2ear styles like Clarice mentioned. This is WAY better than having nothing or just one. This is why I like typing. Having 90% transmission efficiency with an typed person is better than having 30%-50% efficiency with an untyped person.

Add: There are of course also other ways of communicating thoughts like art, music, math, charts, and diagrams. These are less common in the general population than the universal ability to comprehend language (at least as long as the sentences are not too long :-P ).

Clarice
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Re: Personality Test

Post by Clarice » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:32 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:29 pm

But he loses me when he says that an INTJ "automatically" has ENTP unconscious and ESFP subconscious and SE inferior insecurities....... and that this scheme is "100% accurate."
Color me skeptical.
Color me skeptical as well. Historically, these concepts have come from Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung. How did they come up with that? I don't know. I haven't dug that deep. I am currently field-testing these ideas. :geek: If they work, then I can emulate an ESFP, ENTP, and ISFJ when my back is against the wall or... at a boring meeting at work. Let's face it, and ESFP has a much higher chance of being liked by a random group of people than an INTJ. :( Sometimes, you need that.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Personality Test

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am

Clarice wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:32 pm
Historically, these concepts have come from Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung. How did they come up with that? I don't know.
His ass and mythology, respectively.

How useful have you found this 4x4 grid approach? I've been reading about the 4 temperments and I cant connect what's written to actual people I know. The descriptions are too abstract (isnt that supposed to be a good thing for me=INTJ/P?).
jacob wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:00 pm
What I think ------->How I speak my thought -----> How you listen to what I say -----> What you think about it.
....
If you want to communicate a message to other people, you're dealing 2 different filters (voice2ear and ear2brain) for each and every single person you talk to. If you have perfect knowledge of all these filters you can communicate well with that person.
Seems like you think MBTI is the best available way to categorize people's filters. How do you know that? Have you compared it to other available options?

There are other approaches to this problem that dont assume that (1) humans can be so easily categorized or (2) that your rule-based assessment of them will be accurate/useful.

The book Difficult Conversations tackled the Filter Problem in a more intuitive way, in my opinion.
Essentially, you take the approach of trying to summarize the other person's position. Either you get it right, and the person feels validated/open to negotiation. Or you get it wrong and the other person can correct your misunderstanding.

Rapid personality typing and tailored communication would be preferable. It would be faster if it worked, and slower if it doesnt.

daylen
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Re: Personality Test

Post by daylen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:13 am

@TD You seem to be making the assumption that only one tool can be used at a time. Communication is a skill that requires a toolbox and a sufficiently capable tool user.

daylen
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Re: Personality Test

Post by daylen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:38 am

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am
How useful have you found this 4x4 grid approach? I've been reading about the 4 temperments and I cant connect what's written to actual people I know. The descriptions are too abstract (isnt that supposed to be a good thing for me=INTJ/P?).
The 4x4 grid model and the 4 temperaments are different things. The 4x4 model extends they types into the (ego, subconscious, unconscious, superego) dimension. This just seems to be overfitting and allows for someone with a little creativity to come up with an explanation to explain any behavior they desire. The four temperments are a bit more recognizable and have been part of the conversation about human nature for long time. The temperments reflect what part of the production process people prefer to contribute to.

Catalyst (idealist): Prefer to get things going early on in the production process.
Theorist (rationalists): Prefer to optimize/expand the rules/assumptions that other players are using.
Stabilizer (guardians): Prefer to use proven rules/assumptions to extend the production process into the future.
Improviser (Artisans): Prefer to contribute to moderately unstable production processes where the rules are dynamic.

Production processes are just games we play to stay alive. Society plays many games which produce many different hierarchies of competence. Productive hierarchies direct attention to individual skill that sustains the game and creates value for everyone; tyrannical hierarchies fail to mobilize individuals in a way that reflects their competence.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

daylen
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Re: Personality Test

Post by daylen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:01 pm

The four interaction styles tend to correlate with different "moods" and/or moral frameworks. The best way I find to explain this is to make a list of attributes.

Choleric or In Charge
Alphas
Controlling
Confident
Courageous
Insensitive

Melancholic or Chart the Course
Perfectionist
Strategist
Prepared
Sensitive
Critical

Sanguine or Get Things Going
Large social network
Enjoy attention
Expressive
Supportive
Entertaining
Encouraging

Phlegmatic or Behind the Scenes
Submissive
Take path of least resistance
Avoid conflict
Indecisive
Calm
Attentive observers

EDIT 2: Nevermind, I changed it back. I am just being very phlegmatic, I suppose.
Last edited by daylen on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Personality Test

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:09 pm

@daylen
Good summary of the interaction styles. How would you summarize the temperaments?

I'm referring to this:
https://youtu.be/5ASWxOXmF1M
Clarice recommended it, in what I just realized is a different thread.
Clarice wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:51 pm
If you have any interest in the subject type into youtube, "C. S. Joseph". The guy is doing a decent job of popularizing analytical psychology.
Follow up question: can you explain/convince me of the assertion (from the link) that type xxxx must have subconscious yyyy and therefore responds best to z communication method?

daylen
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Re: Personality Test

Post by daylen » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:44 pm

Hold on a second, I got some things mixed up. Here are my sources.

http://www.bestfittype.com/Models/Temperament.cfm

https://temperaments.fighunter.com

EDIT: I was right the first time. I just got confused due to the word "temperament" being used differently across multiple sources.

jacob
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Re: Personality Test

Post by jacob » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:16 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:59 am
Seems like you think MBTI is the best available way to categorize people's filters. How do you know that? Have you compared it to other available options?
No, it's just the best one I know and the one I know best. I also know and have compared it to the "projection model" (assume everybody is like me), Freud's subconsciousness, Berne's transactional analysis, enneagrams, and the classical four temperaments. I don't know if MBTI is the best but it's good enough for me. I doubt I could do better by trying to intuit who or what other people are and I rarely come across people who are simultaneously able to detect any misunderstanding and able to fix it at the same time.

This implies that not only do they have to know what the correct understanding is already (detection) but they have to communicate it back to you in a way you can understand it. For this to work both parties effectively have to know the unfiltered message already. But if they do, they have no reason to communicate [that message].

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Personality Test

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:20 pm

Comparing to "assume everybody is like me" is a pretty low bar.

jacob
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Re: Personality Test

Post by jacob » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:31 pm

Nevertheless it's what the majority of people are using so it makes sense to at least consider it.

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Stahlmann
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Re: Personality Test

Post by Stahlmann » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:34 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:20 pm
Comparing to "assume everybody is like me" is a pretty low bar.
jacob said he operated in such framework in his high school times. Not bad as some people can be very considerate... so expecting everybody to work in such paradigm doesn't sound bad.

edit: oops, somebody is faster than me :lol:

jacob
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Re: Personality Test

Post by jacob » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:57 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind
wiki wrote: Theory of mind is a theory insofar as the mind is the only thing being directly observed.[1] The presumption that others have a mind is termed a theory of mind because each human can only intuit the existence of their own mind through introspection, and no one has direct access to the mind of another. It is typically assumed that others have minds analogous to one's own, and this assumption is based on the reciprocal, social interaction, as observed in joint attention,[6] the functional use of language,[7] and the understanding of others' emotions and actions.[8]

Clarice
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Re: Personality Test

Post by Clarice » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:53 pm

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:09 pm
Follow up question: can you explain/convince me of the assertion (from the link) that type xxxx must have subconscious yyyy and therefore responds best to z communication method?
Well... I can explain the mechanics of it, but once again, stumped wrt where it has come from... Someone's ass? Mythology? Divine revelation? Technically, it works like this: if you are an INTJ (Ni, Te, Fi, Se) you subconscious is a flip - ESFP (Se, Fi, Te, Ni); the mirror image of yourself is your unconscious - ENTP (Ne, Ti, Fe, Si); the mirror image of your subconscious (ESFP) is your superego ISFJ (Si, Fe, Ti, Ne).
MBTI as an inventory is useful for dealing with people, less so as a test. You can not make your coworkers take a test for your convenience. If you perfect the grid, really listen what they say, and watch their visual presentation you can make an educated guess which one out of 16 types they are. C. S. Joseph claims that functions feed off each other. So if someone is Te dominant you emulate Ti (feed him raw data).

7Wannabe5
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Re: Personality Test

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:49 am

The 4 Temperaments also roughly correspond as:

Choleric: Adult Masculine
Phlegmatic: Adult Feminine
Sanguine: Juvenile Masculine
Melancholic: Juvenile Feminine

So when I say that I have a good deal of Juvenile Masculine and Adult Feminine energy, I mean that my temperament is mostly Sanguine and Phlegmatic. I can vibe Choleric when I must (teaching 7th grade, for instance), but it drains me. I am only rarely Melancholic, and I have developed a strong allergic reaction to this humor after being married to Vincent Van Gogh's doppelganger for almost 20 years, so now I mostly find myself in relationship with VERY Choleric men (sigh.)
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Sex hormones don't change innate personality.
This Dinosaur said: Disagree. Prenatal testosterone has measurable permanent effects on human and animal brains. And "Roid rage" in adults is a real phenomenon.
Right, but humans aren't highly gender dimorphic. I have relatively high testosterone AND estrogen levels for a female, and relatively high dopamine receptivity and low cortisol activity. Thus, my above profile.

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