Do you have kids or plan to ?

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
Chad
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Post by Chad »

That Idiocracy clip is exactly why I think we desperately need to become more proficient at genetic manipulation. We need better humans.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

Chad... I agree 100%.
Cue the eugenics mudthrowers.


Mirwen
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Post by Mirwen »

I had a child for a few reasons. First, I feel that I need some family. Before the baby I have my mother and my husband. That's it. If my husband pre-deceases me, I will have no family living in my old age. That's a bit hard for me to take. So I have a child now and I hope that he will be a comfort to me later.
Some less important reasons are that children are a big part of life that I wanted to understand. I also like being around the house so being a housewife appealed to me.
I'm pretty happy with the one child, but I see little marginal value to a second one. If I had any siblings or other family I'm not sure I would want a child as much. I have to admit that being an introvert does not go well with rowdy children.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

Some of these posts worry me. Having a child must be a selfless act. If closeness and companionship come from it then thats a cool side result. Children owe you nothing......if you think they do then you will be in trouble. It will distort the purity of what is sacred. Children are not 'insurance' for your lonliness.
On the plus side if you teach them to respect all people that will also include yourself....
I respect those on here who choose not to have children because they acknowledge their selfishness..
I also realise people do many things for thier own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness.


Marlene
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Post by Marlene »

Once I read that people who do not have kids have pupils.
Thinking about my 80+ Feldenkrais-teacher I think that can be correct - it could also fall into another direction if one encourages others around one to leave one alone. Still the former might be worhty to consider: what kind of knowledge do you have/could attain, that would be teachable and of interest while being old? (Tai Chi, Qui Gong, Yoga, Feldenkrais, Arts & Crafts, ...)
Otherwise I agree with Aussierouge: kids are their of their own.
Personally I´m not too much into kids: there are a lot of people on earth already and my living place is not orderly (read: not yet ready for kids). My SO wants to have kids but sometime in the future. At the moment I´m trying to get used to the thought of being a mother, because I´m turning 36 this year and I think having kids can be great.


aptruncata
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Post by aptruncata »

Wife and I decided to forego the option for common reasons.

1st being expenses. With dual income, we net nearly same amount but childcare in Southern California is about $1200-1500/month which is a pretty chunk of our income. After first month, we would basically pay someone to raise our child, then onto public education (which is horrible in LA) and if all goes well, college.

2nd the hassle. While we both "like" children, it's only on the superficial level, we wouldn't want to deal with more than 15 mins of them. The associated lack of sleep, finding a larger home, dishing out all our expense for the "best" school district (parental peer pressure) which is in excess of $600k, etc. etc...doesn't sound all that appealing.

3rd we are very independent atleast i am and we travel alot. we're making an educated guess that it's a far better way to spend the next twenty years or 40 than hauling around baby wipes in our toyota sienna barely hanging on to a suburban mansion with a blue ribbon school district.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

Aussie, you say having children must be a selfless act. I have to ask, is a selfless act even possible? Does pure altruism exist? The world would be a better place if it did, but sadly it does not.
Dawkins coined the term "the selfish gene" to explain why parents would act in an altruistic way toward their child. They do it for selfish reasons. To propagate.
Anything that anyone does is done for selfish reasons. Altruism is simply a more subtle form of self-interest.
You say, "I also realize people do many things for their own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness."
Everyone does everything for their own selfish reasons. Everything.


tylerrr
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Post by tylerrr »

thanks for the movie clip Jacob.
Does anyone else sometimes feel guilty for not having kids? Where does that come from? I still don't have kids and it doesn't make a lot of logical sense to me to have them when I look around me at the eff'd up world and the direction my country is heading.
Why would I want to raise a kid around mindless idiots listening to hip hop and people who can't even sit down and read a book?
I'm seriously pessimistic about our direction as a whole society. I am one of those people who DOES BELIEVE it's worse that it ever has been.
So at the same time, why do I feel guilty sometimes for not having kids when a lot of my friends around me have them?
I just want to be "ok" with not having kids.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@ego
yep after i wrote that i realised it was a bit extreme and unachiveable. What i meant to say (in hindsight) is that I reckon one should approach parenting in wise way. And to me it isnt wise to have children with the main focus being that they will look after you when you get older.
I agree that we are all selfish but i also belive in the idea of smart selfishness vs stupid selfishness..... M scott Peck (road less travelled)
Quote
The path of stupid selfishness is trying to avoid all pain. The path of smart selfishness is trying to discern which pain or suffering, particularly emotional suffering, is constructive and which is unconstructive.
unquote
So for me a smart selfishness is basing your goals and actions on things that create the best chances for optimum results. So this means mental, social, financial wellbeing. This also means understanding the complexities of life and what really makes people happy.
So although a selfish goal may be for example "to have people respect me" i can approach this goal a smart way or a dumb way. I can either try and make people respect me through force for example (dumb) or i could do it through actions that help other people (ie be community minded). So they both have the same ultimate goal but one leaves less destruction and infact adds to life, more than the other.
Parenting i recon is similar. A good parent is smart selfish which in a way can mean deliberately selfless or knowingly selfless in order to gain more love and respect either immediately or down the track. A bad parent is dumb slefish. This could mean creating dependance, manipulation, lack of foresight etc etc...
So a smart parent imo cultivates inner thoughts like "my children are only mine for a short time, its a privilege to be a parent, children have free will all i can do is steer them in the right direction, i love watching my children grow up etc etc'. A smart selfish parent may also realise that by depending too much on a child for support in our later years may mean that we are less motivated to work on our relationships NOW. My mother for example never remarried after divorcing my dad. Maybe she got a bit lazy and now she is a little lonely. As i get older a smart selfish person should imo conitnue to take responisility for my own happiness.
Sure i would love support financially and emotionally from my children but this would be an 'unwise focus"
A stupid selfish person would probably do the opposite of above.
It would seem to me one way makes life easier and happier than the other.
cheers

aussie


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@tylerr
I reckon there is no right or wrong wiht the decision to have children - but i do reckon you need to get the thought process right because in that way you wont have guilt.
If you blame the world being screwed and focus on the negative aspects of having children then to me you are trying to convince yourself - when deep down you are maybe still unsure. Truth is people are living longer than thay ever have. We also have not seen a major war for 60 or 70 years so comparitvely speaking we have had peacefull times. Our last depression was 80-90 years ago. Even the poorest people have access to things most of us didnt have in the 1960's.
But here is the scoop - since the apes (or adam and Eve) a certain proportion of humanity have not reproduced. You you are not ribinson carusoe. There is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to have children. People have decided against having kids forever and there are plenty of great reasons.
I seriously reckon that people who decide against kids face the same problems and prejudices of other minority groups. If you arent like everyone else then you are strange. And that is not fair. It gets down to respect and acceptance of decisions which are highly personal. It should be no ones interest (except your own and maybe your spouse) and that should be enuf..
cheers

aussie


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GandK
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Post by GandK »

@tylerr:
Sometimes I feel guilty for having had kids for exactly the reasons you describe. The world is sometimes a terrible place, and when I think of the problems their generation will have to face, there are times when I think I must've had them for selfish reasons.


Chad
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Post by Chad »

I think we focus too much on the negative of the world. As Aussie kind of noted; the world is a much safer and more humane place now than it has been throughout recorded history. Yes, there are still unbelievable amounts of abject misery in the world, but that unbelievable amount is significantly smaller than it was even 100 years ago.
Through out much of the last 200 years the U.S. was a beacon of democratic ideals (muddled with republic ideals), and it had, on average, more freedoms than other countries. However, now there are major swaths of every continent with democracies and rather free citizens.
Yes, this could change, but it could also get better (more money usually equals more freedom - China). I don't think "the world is evil" is legit reason not to have kids.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

Aussie, when someone says, "I don't want kids because X", they are being brutally honest. Honest with their feelings and honest with societal pressures.
There is tremendous social pressure to reproduce. There is a tremendous innate drive to reproduce. We all know that social pressure is not always correct. We also know that some innate desires can be wrong.
To even pose the question "why reproduce" one is met with claims of dysfunction and extreme selfishness. You are right to be bothered when someone says they want to reproduce to create a child who will take care of them in old age. But realize, there is no answer to the "why have kids" question that is not equally selfish.
M. Scott Peck's smart-selfishness vs. stupid-selfishness is a delusion. If you need evidence look no further than his life. He himself acknowledged multiple infidelities, left his wife for a younger woman and was estranged from two of his three children. I don't say that to beat on a dead guy. I say it to show the explosive power of the inner conflict created from this self-dishonesty.


JasonR
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Post by JasonR »

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Last edited by JasonR on Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@chad
if you read my post after the last one i agree that declaring not to have children is met unfairly by society.
Re M scott peck....he was a less than perfect person but some of his messages were great.
I am not a christian but i like many of the messages from the bible. The fact that im not a christian how can i then appreciate a dude with a long beard saying he is the son of god? What a whacko hey! That is worse than dipping your dong a few times whilst in wedlock would have thought.
Bob dylan did pespi adds......people arent perfect. The french dont frown on infidenlity like the USA and the Brits...
This isnt about point scoring. I agree with the premise that people aren not necessarily selfish if they decide to have kids or not have kids.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

@AussieRogue, "I agree with the premise that people aren not necessarily selfish if they decide to have kids or not have kids."
Note: I ask this as someone who tried and failed to have kids.
Can you give an example of an unselfish motive for reproduction?
Regarding my point about M. Scott Peck, his flaw was a result of his flawed belief that it is possible for an act to be both selfish and altruistic.
FWIW, we are on the cusp of a reproduction revolution where the process of having a child will be very different than it is today...

http://tinyurl.com/98rsero


anomie
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Post by anomie »

DW and I have independently decided to not have children. She because she enjoys her life to much, and me because I believe the world has plenty of people willing to breed and needs no more, and on my even darker days believe that no one should bring new life to this planet.
The larger, more intellectual reason that we would offer for our choice if asked, is that there are plenty of biological reproducers for genetic diversity purpose. The important producer of identity is culture, and culture is broadly enough disseminated via the internet and other methods that culture will transmit all important heritable traits. Imagine a factory-like setup, and 'culture' stamping out little citizens on a factory line.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@ego
"Can you give an example of an unselfish motive for reproduction"?
you could shag someone and not think about the consequences and then a child pops out. You could try for children and not be able to have children. Neither ideas are either selfish or unselfish.
and fwiw i dont agree with richard dawkins on many things.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

Shag... Pleasure is the most fundamental motivation. It is pure selfishness.
My point is, there is no unselfish motivation for having a child.
I'm in a bit of a strange position as someone who tried and failed to reproduce. I understand the motivation of those who have kids and understand the benefits and thinking of those who choose not to reproduce. You hit a raw nerve when you said, "I respect those on here who choose not to have children because they acknowledge their selfishness... I also realise people do many things for thier own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness."
According to that statement, Child-free by Choice = Selfish = Inevitable Unhappiness.
As I said above, there is no unselfish motivation for having a kid.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@ego
the shagging motivation can be for the act of shagging in itself not for the intention of having a kid. Surely there is a difference.
I do respect your views and yes in that paragraph i realised i was off the mark. I tried to rectify that position in subsequent posts. I guess i was a bit miffed at people negativity toward having kids. Anmd then the ones that did many said it was to look after them in their old age. I just find that overtly selfish.
I do till belive that there can be a smart and dumb selfish act. That idea is absolutely reasonable. Its the same as making good and bad decisions. If all decisions are selfish and some decisions are bad and some are good then there is a distinction to be made.
A selfish act may be to be ERE so that i dont have to deal with people in the workplace - but the benefits are also great - less consumerism, less polution etc etc..
Maybe we can agree to disagree - but i do value your opinion as always and sorry of i offended.
cheers

aussie


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