I guess euthanasia is one ...
Do you have kids or plan to ?
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jennypenny
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Spartan_Warrior
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I think the cures for loneliness in old age are more or less the same as the cures for loneliness at any age...
I do not plan to have kids, but that could change. As others have said, the decision is only partly related to monetary expense. That said, I would prefer to wait until I'm FI in my early-mid 30s, so I can actually spend time with them. Time > money.
I do not plan to have kids, but that could change. As others have said, the decision is only partly related to monetary expense. That said, I would prefer to wait until I'm FI in my early-mid 30s, so I can actually spend time with them. Time > money.
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jacob
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@altoid - The solution is to create a robust social network. Several very good (best) friends. An activity community. Be the one in the street/community that everybody knows and cares about. Make sure to make it cross-generational as it won't work if everybody is dying at the same time.
This requires serious effort (that few are willing to or naturally capable of making)---also within families. If families are close it is often due to one or two strong organizers who keep things together. In other words, families or groups actually tend to be fragile. If the hub dies (literally or figuratively) people who used to talk can stop talking because the one who used to bring everybody together doesn't do so anymore.
This requires serious effort (that few are willing to or naturally capable of making)---also within families. If families are close it is often due to one or two strong organizers who keep things together. In other words, families or groups actually tend to be fragile. If the hub dies (literally or figuratively) people who used to talk can stop talking because the one who used to bring everybody together doesn't do so anymore.
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dot_com_vet
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We have one toddler here and it makes life a lot of fun!
It's a ton of work and changes one's lifestyle a lot. We had a great time at the park this evening, until my daughter threw up on me. That's how it goes.
It's really up to you if you want to be frugal (toys from garage sales) or if you want to join the rat race (mortgage a $40k minivan and go to soccer games).
It's a ton of work and changes one's lifestyle a lot. We had a great time at the park this evening, until my daughter threw up on me. That's how it goes.
It's really up to you if you want to be frugal (toys from garage sales) or if you want to join the rat race (mortgage a $40k minivan and go to soccer games).
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George the original one
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"It's a ton of work and changes one's lifestyle a lot. We had a great time at the park this evening, until my daughter threw up on me. That's how it goes."
Substitute "dog" for "daughter" and that's how our life was not so long ago, LOL.
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Dad always told me, "Never grow old." I was the 4th child, born when mom was 42 and dad was 46. The next sibling is a decade older than I am. The whole family were already freaking old!
As Chad points out, bitter, crabby old people do it to themselves. The best thing you can do is seek out people of all ages that you enjoy spending time with. Even if it's here on the vast wasteland of the Internet.
Substitute "dog" for "daughter" and that's how our life was not so long ago, LOL.
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Dad always told me, "Never grow old." I was the 4th child, born when mom was 42 and dad was 46. The next sibling is a decade older than I am. The whole family were already freaking old!
As Chad points out, bitter, crabby old people do it to themselves. The best thing you can do is seek out people of all ages that you enjoy spending time with. Even if it's here on the vast wasteland of the Internet.
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secretwealth
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"The solution is to create a robust social network. Several very good (best) friends. An activity community. Be the one in the street/community that everybody knows and cares about. "
Easier said than done. And the sad fact is, few young people want to hang out with unrelated old people, no matter how cool or interesting they might be.
Easier said than done. And the sad fact is, few young people want to hang out with unrelated old people, no matter how cool or interesting they might be.
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jacob
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Much easier said than done. Even within families. And that's why having children is not a "free solution".
BTW the age differential need not be substantial. I'm not suggesting 25 vs 75 .. but a range: some friends at 75, some at 55, some at 35, some at 15, ... ideally some older and some younger and a good-sized span.
BTW the age differential need not be substantial. I'm not suggesting 25 vs 75 .. but a range: some friends at 75, some at 55, some at 35, some at 15, ... ideally some older and some younger and a good-sized span.
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aussierogue
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All i can say is that kids have enriched our lives immeasurably..
I do not rely on my children to look after me when i get old. I see it as a privilege to be a parent and something that evolves from dependancy to a more mature relationship as they get older.
There is something to be said for the love between a parent and their child. Certainly something to aspire too......if y9ou do it right. For me it's amazing. I am aware though that children / people are free spsirits and all I can do is provide love and guidance as best as I (and my wife) can.
All I know is that being ere and having kids is an 'absolute privilege'. There is nothing else i would rather be doing...or put another way - i want for nothing. Nothing important anyway....still would like a slightly newer car but that can wait.
I do not rely on my children to look after me when i get old. I see it as a privilege to be a parent and something that evolves from dependancy to a more mature relationship as they get older.
There is something to be said for the love between a parent and their child. Certainly something to aspire too......if y9ou do it right. For me it's amazing. I am aware though that children / people are free spsirits and all I can do is provide love and guidance as best as I (and my wife) can.
All I know is that being ere and having kids is an 'absolute privilege'. There is nothing else i would rather be doing...or put another way - i want for nothing. Nothing important anyway....still would like a slightly newer car but that can wait.
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irukandjisting
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I have 5 children
1 is in New York and just about to start her next job - she has 2 degrees - 1 in Music and 1 in Education - spent 2 years in London working and 2 years in Whistler working - Grade 8 pianist
1 is in Brisbane - returned from Germany - a degree in International Business Management - weekend DJ n composer - Grade 8 pianist
1 is in Brisbane - Year 3 of a 4 year degree in Music and Education - spent 6 months in Winnipeg on a Honours degree exchange - travelled by train to Churchill and onto the Polar Bear region - Grade 8 pianist - Year 2 of Cello
1 is Year 1 of Journalism - at a north NSW University - on P plates and has a little car he travels home to at every break
1 is in Year 11 of High School - finishing school and moving out to start Uni next year - Grade 7 piano
All have achieved Uni via Public School Education and HECS - where you are funded by the govt to achieve your Degree at Uni and refund the money via a taxation system when you start full time work
Basically, the kids are living on 100 dollars a week after rent for the time of their Uni studies - a room at Uni 140 per week
.....not that Tertiary education is be all and end all - it's their choice on what they wanted to do after school finished - all my kids work at Pizza Hut, newsagents, gift stores etc, a few hours a week to supplment HECS
All save money and travel quite extensively - non smoke and 1 is a social drinker
Would have it no other way - they are exemplary and we all have done it on a shoestring - Vegemite sandwiches and 4 piano lessons a week - a 100 dollar piano to start and from a single parent household most of their lives - we live in a beachy coastal small town classed as lower socio economic, beautiful stunning and wonderful - with a higher level of unemployment than other areas of Australia and aged - around 6 percent I think - think we have about 5 pc unemployment Aus wide
While the eldest was doing her degree - I went to Uni and got myself a degree - commuting 270 ks each way to Uni - and working part time on weekends - driving home from Uni and praying I would not run out of petrol on the Highway - I was 43 when I started Uni, alone and with 4 young children at home - currently employed and loving it.... in Mental Health - a worthwhile career
My ERE will be when my home is sold and divided - the proceeds invested and my living off the interest
Anyway... anything is possible - same journey, different route
1 is in New York and just about to start her next job - she has 2 degrees - 1 in Music and 1 in Education - spent 2 years in London working and 2 years in Whistler working - Grade 8 pianist
1 is in Brisbane - returned from Germany - a degree in International Business Management - weekend DJ n composer - Grade 8 pianist
1 is in Brisbane - Year 3 of a 4 year degree in Music and Education - spent 6 months in Winnipeg on a Honours degree exchange - travelled by train to Churchill and onto the Polar Bear region - Grade 8 pianist - Year 2 of Cello
1 is Year 1 of Journalism - at a north NSW University - on P plates and has a little car he travels home to at every break
1 is in Year 11 of High School - finishing school and moving out to start Uni next year - Grade 7 piano
All have achieved Uni via Public School Education and HECS - where you are funded by the govt to achieve your Degree at Uni and refund the money via a taxation system when you start full time work
Basically, the kids are living on 100 dollars a week after rent for the time of their Uni studies - a room at Uni 140 per week
.....not that Tertiary education is be all and end all - it's their choice on what they wanted to do after school finished - all my kids work at Pizza Hut, newsagents, gift stores etc, a few hours a week to supplment HECS
All save money and travel quite extensively - non smoke and 1 is a social drinker
Would have it no other way - they are exemplary and we all have done it on a shoestring - Vegemite sandwiches and 4 piano lessons a week - a 100 dollar piano to start and from a single parent household most of their lives - we live in a beachy coastal small town classed as lower socio economic, beautiful stunning and wonderful - with a higher level of unemployment than other areas of Australia and aged - around 6 percent I think - think we have about 5 pc unemployment Aus wide
While the eldest was doing her degree - I went to Uni and got myself a degree - commuting 270 ks each way to Uni - and working part time on weekends - driving home from Uni and praying I would not run out of petrol on the Highway - I was 43 when I started Uni, alone and with 4 young children at home - currently employed and loving it.... in Mental Health - a worthwhile career
My ERE will be when my home is sold and divided - the proceeds invested and my living off the interest
Anyway... anything is possible - same journey, different route
@altoid: I always half-joke that by the time we are old and in assisted living, there will be LAN-parties all year round.
I really do believe that the current generations aged 20-50 will have a different old age than the current average 70-80 year olds, due to the computers, and future developments in health care (including keeping people more fit, more mobile, better able to communicate with others etc).
Also for me, taking care of one or more kids for 20 or more years during my prime years weighs more heavily than a potentially extra visitor during my 70s and 80s, if I live to that age anyway.
I really do believe that the current generations aged 20-50 will have a different old age than the current average 70-80 year olds, due to the computers, and future developments in health care (including keeping people more fit, more mobile, better able to communicate with others etc).
Also for me, taking care of one or more kids for 20 or more years during my prime years weighs more heavily than a potentially extra visitor during my 70s and 80s, if I live to that age anyway.
@OP: This girl has 2 kids and 6 stepkids. No regrets here. Are we going more slowly toward ER? Yes. Good lord, we pay way more in child support than we do on our mortgage. They're worth it, though.
I agree with others that creating a social net should not (but frequently does) revolve around procreation, and it also bothers me that the child-free members of our society face pressure and judgment for their decisions. Do we really WANT people who'd rather not have kids to have them anyway?
One problem that IS really unique to women in this discussion is the biological clock factor. If a woman is going to have children, and she's going to wait until a socially acceptable age to do it (25 or older), then she really only has a 10 year window before (a) procreation becomes exponentially more difficult, and (b) her age starts becoming a danger to her unborn baby. That window can be opened wider, by tinkering or by luck, but science hasn't found a way to break it yet.
And if you're going to have kids between 25 and 35, you have to find a mate (a good one, hopefully) even sooner.
As it relates to ERE, many women simply haven't got themselves together financially at that young age. Biology trumps logic for most, and they find themselves at 40 with X kids and Y money, where Y < X.
I agree with others that creating a social net should not (but frequently does) revolve around procreation, and it also bothers me that the child-free members of our society face pressure and judgment for their decisions. Do we really WANT people who'd rather not have kids to have them anyway?
One problem that IS really unique to women in this discussion is the biological clock factor. If a woman is going to have children, and she's going to wait until a socially acceptable age to do it (25 or older), then she really only has a 10 year window before (a) procreation becomes exponentially more difficult, and (b) her age starts becoming a danger to her unborn baby. That window can be opened wider, by tinkering or by luck, but science hasn't found a way to break it yet.
And if you're going to have kids between 25 and 35, you have to find a mate (a good one, hopefully) even sooner.
As it relates to ERE, many women simply haven't got themselves together financially at that young age. Biology trumps logic for most, and they find themselves at 40 with X kids and Y money, where Y < X.
What a uncouthy discusion in this thread, I love to read it.
I became father of a daughter at the early age of 22. In 1969, unplanned but after the initial shock I see it still as a positive happy surprise. At 17 she went to college and (beside a short period later) she started to live on her own. So at 39 I was empty nested.
What a different perspective with the younger forum members now.
Early seventies we had the discussions of the Club of Rome about the impact of growth of man on Earth. One of the reasons we decided not to have more children.
I don't see it mentioned in this thread but is it an (unspoken) factor now too?
I became father of a daughter at the early age of 22. In 1969, unplanned but after the initial shock I see it still as a positive happy surprise. At 17 she went to college and (beside a short period later) she started to live on her own. So at 39 I was empty nested.
What a different perspective with the younger forum members now.
Early seventies we had the discussions of the Club of Rome about the impact of growth of man on Earth. One of the reasons we decided not to have more children.
I don't see it mentioned in this thread but is it an (unspoken) factor now too?
J, I am well aware that we do have more than enough people on this planet, I think there are actually too many already.
It is about my fourth reason on my personal list to not have kids. Number 1 to 3 are:
1. I don't like spending too much time with them. I get boooooored with any child under age 10 or so.
2. I think my kids would inherit some genetic problems from me, including depression and a tendency to get fat.
3. Given point 1, my kids would also not be raised in the best possible way. Having a parent that doesn't want to be around you is not very good for a child, I think.
It is about my fourth reason on my personal list to not have kids. Number 1 to 3 are:
1. I don't like spending too much time with them. I get boooooored with any child under age 10 or so.
2. I think my kids would inherit some genetic problems from me, including depression and a tendency to get fat.
3. Given point 1, my kids would also not be raised in the best possible way. Having a parent that doesn't want to be around you is not very good for a child, I think.
@J
The population issue is definitely one of the factors for me leaning away from having kids. I just kind of assumed everyone not having kids had this somewhere on their list of reasons to "not have kids."
If I did eventually have kids I would have a hard time rationalizing more than two, due to the population issue (this is not a criticism of anyone on here who has had more).
My other factors would be:
1) Selfish with my time
2) I get bored with kids and really do not enjoy babies under 1.5 years old (they don't do anything!)
3) I need to be more financially stable before I would consider it. Though, compared to the rest of the population I probably look very stable.
The population issue is definitely one of the factors for me leaning away from having kids. I just kind of assumed everyone not having kids had this somewhere on their list of reasons to "not have kids."
If I did eventually have kids I would have a hard time rationalizing more than two, due to the population issue (this is not a criticism of anyone on here who has had more).
My other factors would be:
1) Selfish with my time
2) I get bored with kids and really do not enjoy babies under 1.5 years old (they don't do anything!)
3) I need to be more financially stable before I would consider it. Though, compared to the rest of the population I probably look very stable.
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LiquidSapphire
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I've thought on the issue a lot over the past 18 months or so and I am leaning toward not having them.
Reasons:
1) Most kids under a certain age bore the crap out of me.
2) Studies show that from moment to moment most people do not enjoy the actual task of "parenting". In fact I recently read in a magazine that women would rather Mop Their Floor than Parent their Kids on a day to day basis.
3) I just know myself and know that if I ever had children, I would feel the immense pressure to make sure they had the most wholesome childhood possible and they would be joining the soccer, the gymnastics, blah blah, I'd do everything I could for them because I would want to set them up the best I could. I know that that kid would consume my life. And I don't think that is a very good use of my life, to let another one consume it for 20 years, and they probably wouldn't even appreciate it. So I think there are other ways for me to make a difference in a way where I can do well and excel but also in a way where it doesn't completely turn me into a slave.
Also if I had a kid right now I would still be stuck in a career I hate just because I would be that much more risk averse and wouldn't even be able to think about letting it go at this juncture. So this fictional kid would have forced my hand in keeping my work life a living hell already!
Reasons:
1) Most kids under a certain age bore the crap out of me.
2) Studies show that from moment to moment most people do not enjoy the actual task of "parenting". In fact I recently read in a magazine that women would rather Mop Their Floor than Parent their Kids on a day to day basis.
3) I just know myself and know that if I ever had children, I would feel the immense pressure to make sure they had the most wholesome childhood possible and they would be joining the soccer, the gymnastics, blah blah, I'd do everything I could for them because I would want to set them up the best I could. I know that that kid would consume my life. And I don't think that is a very good use of my life, to let another one consume it for 20 years, and they probably wouldn't even appreciate it. So I think there are other ways for me to make a difference in a way where I can do well and excel but also in a way where it doesn't completely turn me into a slave.
Also if I had a kid right now I would still be stuck in a career I hate just because I would be that much more risk averse and wouldn't even be able to think about letting it go at this juncture. So this fictional kid would have forced my hand in keeping my work life a living hell already!