re: LS's comment
I don't think the average parent's experience in the US would be the same as the average ERE's experience. If you buy into the current consumer-driven, helicopter style of parenting, I'm sure it's exhausting and financially very stressful to pull off. Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I just think an ERE's experience would be different from the norm, just like most other aspects of our lives.
@GandK--I never thought about the age constraints for women having babies and attaining ERE. Interesting point. I guess you need a partner willing to take up the financial slack. Or you could set your sights on semi-ERE. Or adopt.
Do you have kids or plan to ?
I waited until I was about 34 to actively pursue having a child. I had some trouble getting pregnant before having kid #1 in my late-30's. If I could go back in time, I would have started earlier (maybe age 30 or so). I would have liked another kiddo, but it just isn't going to happen now that I am in my 40's.
If you aim for retirement at an early age, kids aren't going to hamper that too much IMO. I think they are pretty cheap. I worked for a little bit when kiddo was young to put enough away for future college expenses, then I quit. My hubby still works, but he will probably hang it up in a few years.
If you aim for retirement at an early age, kids aren't going to hamper that too much IMO. I think they are pretty cheap. I worked for a little bit when kiddo was young to put enough away for future college expenses, then I quit. My hubby still works, but he will probably hang it up in a few years.
@Chad says: "I think it's very selfish to have kids expecting them to take care of you. I don't think that is a fair plan, as they had no choice in the matter.
I also don't think it's morally right for men to have children after a certain age. It's completely unfair to ask for a 12 year old to deal with the death of her 75 year old dad."
Yes! This 1000% My parent is one of those that expects me (as the non-screw of us two siblings) to take care of her. Fat chance as I'll be halfway around the world. It took me a long time to be able to stand up to parent this way, but I've given so much already, to the detriment of my own life.
And men need to stop saying they can have children whenever they want. First, as with women, there's an expiry date on good sperm. Secondly, I've seen my 28 year old friend watch his late-70something year old father pass away. My friend's heartbreak and devastation (not to mention how he acted out afterwards...) proved my suspicion of how cruel it is to have kids late (after say, 40 or 42).
I also don't think it's morally right for men to have children after a certain age. It's completely unfair to ask for a 12 year old to deal with the death of her 75 year old dad."
Yes! This 1000% My parent is one of those that expects me (as the non-screw of us two siblings) to take care of her. Fat chance as I'll be halfway around the world. It took me a long time to be able to stand up to parent this way, but I've given so much already, to the detriment of my own life.
And men need to stop saying they can have children whenever they want. First, as with women, there's an expiry date on good sperm. Secondly, I've seen my 28 year old friend watch his late-70something year old father pass away. My friend's heartbreak and devastation (not to mention how he acted out afterwards...) proved my suspicion of how cruel it is to have kids late (after say, 40 or 42).
I'm in the no kids camp, but I do plan to enjoy the pleasure of procreation vicariously by helping out with other people's children. Not sure exactly what form this will take yet, but it is in my goals.
I think this will strike the perfect balance of not feeling like I "missed out" on a fundamental human experience, while not requiring an 18+ year commitment.
I think this will strike the perfect balance of not feeling like I "missed out" on a fundamental human experience, while not requiring an 18+ year commitment.
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sarasuperid
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:34 pm
@palmera
Last point, the same can happen to marriage and it's worse for marriage. The one die later will feel sorrow,sadness,or maybe depression. The reason is that couple staying longer together and having more experience. To avoid all the emotional devastation, it's better to be single for life and die alone.
Nonetheless, we can always train ourself and/or kids to avoid too much attachment to others. I find the first experience will be painful. As we learned from it, subsequent departures are not as bad.
To OP, the reason I would have kids is to raise great human beings that can benefit humanity and not just to have fun as parents although it can be a bonous.The reason not to have kids is everything mentioned above this post.
Last point, the same can happen to marriage and it's worse for marriage. The one die later will feel sorrow,sadness,or maybe depression. The reason is that couple staying longer together and having more experience. To avoid all the emotional devastation, it's better to be single for life and die alone.
Nonetheless, we can always train ourself and/or kids to avoid too much attachment to others. I find the first experience will be painful. As we learned from it, subsequent departures are not as bad.
To OP, the reason I would have kids is to raise great human beings that can benefit humanity and not just to have fun as parents although it can be a bonous.The reason not to have kids is everything mentioned above this post.
Here's an interesting story in the New Yorker about the question of why people have children.
"There are many urges apparently arising from our biological nature that we nonetheless should choose not to act upon,” she observes. If we’re going to keep having kids, we ought to be able to come up with a reason....
Consider the claim that having a child benefits the child......
Overall rejects this argument on two grounds. First of all, nonexistent people have no moral standing. (There are an infinite number of nonexistent people out there, and you don’t notice them complaining, do you?) Second, once you accept that you should have a baby in order to increase the world’s total happiness, how do you know when to stop?
More here:
http://www.readability.com/articles/nqbs20bh
"There are many urges apparently arising from our biological nature that we nonetheless should choose not to act upon,” she observes. If we’re going to keep having kids, we ought to be able to come up with a reason....
Consider the claim that having a child benefits the child......
Overall rejects this argument on two grounds. First of all, nonexistent people have no moral standing. (There are an infinite number of nonexistent people out there, and you don’t notice them complaining, do you?) Second, once you accept that you should have a baby in order to increase the world’s total happiness, how do you know when to stop?
More here:
http://www.readability.com/articles/nqbs20bh
I had a child for a few reasons. First, I feel that I need some family. Before the baby I have my mother and my husband. That's it. If my husband pre-deceases me, I will have no family living in my old age. That's a bit hard for me to take. So I have a child now and I hope that he will be a comfort to me later.
Some less important reasons are that children are a big part of life that I wanted to understand. I also like being around the house so being a housewife appealed to me.
I'm pretty happy with the one child, but I see little marginal value to a second one. If I had any siblings or other family I'm not sure I would want a child as much. I have to admit that being an introvert does not go well with rowdy children.
Some less important reasons are that children are a big part of life that I wanted to understand. I also like being around the house so being a housewife appealed to me.
I'm pretty happy with the one child, but I see little marginal value to a second one. If I had any siblings or other family I'm not sure I would want a child as much. I have to admit that being an introvert does not go well with rowdy children.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
Some of these posts worry me. Having a child must be a selfless act. If closeness and companionship come from it then thats a cool side result. Children owe you nothing......if you think they do then you will be in trouble. It will distort the purity of what is sacred. Children are not 'insurance' for your lonliness.
On the plus side if you teach them to respect all people that will also include yourself....
I respect those on here who choose not to have children because they acknowledge their selfishness..
I also realise people do many things for thier own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness.
On the plus side if you teach them to respect all people that will also include yourself....
I respect those on here who choose not to have children because they acknowledge their selfishness..
I also realise people do many things for thier own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness.
Once I read that people who do not have kids have pupils.
Thinking about my 80+ Feldenkrais-teacher I think that can be correct - it could also fall into another direction if one encourages others around one to leave one alone. Still the former might be worhty to consider: what kind of knowledge do you have/could attain, that would be teachable and of interest while being old? (Tai Chi, Qui Gong, Yoga, Feldenkrais, Arts & Crafts, ...)
Otherwise I agree with Aussierouge: kids are their of their own.
Personally I´m not too much into kids: there are a lot of people on earth already and my living place is not orderly (read: not yet ready for kids). My SO wants to have kids but sometime in the future. At the moment I´m trying to get used to the thought of being a mother, because I´m turning 36 this year and I think having kids can be great.
Thinking about my 80+ Feldenkrais-teacher I think that can be correct - it could also fall into another direction if one encourages others around one to leave one alone. Still the former might be worhty to consider: what kind of knowledge do you have/could attain, that would be teachable and of interest while being old? (Tai Chi, Qui Gong, Yoga, Feldenkrais, Arts & Crafts, ...)
Otherwise I agree with Aussierouge: kids are their of their own.
Personally I´m not too much into kids: there are a lot of people on earth already and my living place is not orderly (read: not yet ready for kids). My SO wants to have kids but sometime in the future. At the moment I´m trying to get used to the thought of being a mother, because I´m turning 36 this year and I think having kids can be great.
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aptruncata
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:14 pm
Wife and I decided to forego the option for common reasons.
1st being expenses. With dual income, we net nearly same amount but childcare in Southern California is about $1200-1500/month which is a pretty chunk of our income. After first month, we would basically pay someone to raise our child, then onto public education (which is horrible in LA) and if all goes well, college.
2nd the hassle. While we both "like" children, it's only on the superficial level, we wouldn't want to deal with more than 15 mins of them. The associated lack of sleep, finding a larger home, dishing out all our expense for the "best" school district (parental peer pressure) which is in excess of $600k, etc. etc...doesn't sound all that appealing.
3rd we are very independent atleast i am and we travel alot. we're making an educated guess that it's a far better way to spend the next twenty years or 40 than hauling around baby wipes in our toyota sienna barely hanging on to a suburban mansion with a blue ribbon school district.
1st being expenses. With dual income, we net nearly same amount but childcare in Southern California is about $1200-1500/month which is a pretty chunk of our income. After first month, we would basically pay someone to raise our child, then onto public education (which is horrible in LA) and if all goes well, college.
2nd the hassle. While we both "like" children, it's only on the superficial level, we wouldn't want to deal with more than 15 mins of them. The associated lack of sleep, finding a larger home, dishing out all our expense for the "best" school district (parental peer pressure) which is in excess of $600k, etc. etc...doesn't sound all that appealing.
3rd we are very independent atleast i am and we travel alot. we're making an educated guess that it's a far better way to spend the next twenty years or 40 than hauling around baby wipes in our toyota sienna barely hanging on to a suburban mansion with a blue ribbon school district.
Aussie, you say having children must be a selfless act. I have to ask, is a selfless act even possible? Does pure altruism exist? The world would be a better place if it did, but sadly it does not.
Dawkins coined the term "the selfish gene" to explain why parents would act in an altruistic way toward their child. They do it for selfish reasons. To propagate.
Anything that anyone does is done for selfish reasons. Altruism is simply a more subtle form of self-interest.
You say, "I also realize people do many things for their own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness."
Everyone does everything for their own selfish reasons. Everything.
Dawkins coined the term "the selfish gene" to explain why parents would act in an altruistic way toward their child. They do it for selfish reasons. To propagate.
Anything that anyone does is done for selfish reasons. Altruism is simply a more subtle form of self-interest.
You say, "I also realize people do many things for their own selfish reasons. A sure way to stay on a cycle of unhappiness."
Everyone does everything for their own selfish reasons. Everything.
thanks for the movie clip Jacob.
Does anyone else sometimes feel guilty for not having kids? Where does that come from? I still don't have kids and it doesn't make a lot of logical sense to me to have them when I look around me at the eff'd up world and the direction my country is heading.
Why would I want to raise a kid around mindless idiots listening to hip hop and people who can't even sit down and read a book?
I'm seriously pessimistic about our direction as a whole society. I am one of those people who DOES BELIEVE it's worse that it ever has been.
So at the same time, why do I feel guilty sometimes for not having kids when a lot of my friends around me have them?
I just want to be "ok" with not having kids.
Does anyone else sometimes feel guilty for not having kids? Where does that come from? I still don't have kids and it doesn't make a lot of logical sense to me to have them when I look around me at the eff'd up world and the direction my country is heading.
Why would I want to raise a kid around mindless idiots listening to hip hop and people who can't even sit down and read a book?
I'm seriously pessimistic about our direction as a whole society. I am one of those people who DOES BELIEVE it's worse that it ever has been.
So at the same time, why do I feel guilty sometimes for not having kids when a lot of my friends around me have them?
I just want to be "ok" with not having kids.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
@ego
yep after i wrote that i realised it was a bit extreme and unachiveable. What i meant to say (in hindsight) is that I reckon one should approach parenting in wise way. And to me it isnt wise to have children with the main focus being that they will look after you when you get older.
I agree that we are all selfish but i also belive in the idea of smart selfishness vs stupid selfishness..... M scott Peck (road less travelled)
Quote
The path of stupid selfishness is trying to avoid all pain. The path of smart selfishness is trying to discern which pain or suffering, particularly emotional suffering, is constructive and which is unconstructive.
unquote
So for me a smart selfishness is basing your goals and actions on things that create the best chances for optimum results. So this means mental, social, financial wellbeing. This also means understanding the complexities of life and what really makes people happy.
So although a selfish goal may be for example "to have people respect me" i can approach this goal a smart way or a dumb way. I can either try and make people respect me through force for example (dumb) or i could do it through actions that help other people (ie be community minded). So they both have the same ultimate goal but one leaves less destruction and infact adds to life, more than the other.
Parenting i recon is similar. A good parent is smart selfish which in a way can mean deliberately selfless or knowingly selfless in order to gain more love and respect either immediately or down the track. A bad parent is dumb slefish. This could mean creating dependance, manipulation, lack of foresight etc etc...
So a smart parent imo cultivates inner thoughts like "my children are only mine for a short time, its a privilege to be a parent, children have free will all i can do is steer them in the right direction, i love watching my children grow up etc etc'. A smart selfish parent may also realise that by depending too much on a child for support in our later years may mean that we are less motivated to work on our relationships NOW. My mother for example never remarried after divorcing my dad. Maybe she got a bit lazy and now she is a little lonely. As i get older a smart selfish person should imo conitnue to take responisility for my own happiness.
Sure i would love support financially and emotionally from my children but this would be an 'unwise focus"
A stupid selfish person would probably do the opposite of above.
It would seem to me one way makes life easier and happier than the other.
cheers
aussie
yep after i wrote that i realised it was a bit extreme and unachiveable. What i meant to say (in hindsight) is that I reckon one should approach parenting in wise way. And to me it isnt wise to have children with the main focus being that they will look after you when you get older.
I agree that we are all selfish but i also belive in the idea of smart selfishness vs stupid selfishness..... M scott Peck (road less travelled)
Quote
The path of stupid selfishness is trying to avoid all pain. The path of smart selfishness is trying to discern which pain or suffering, particularly emotional suffering, is constructive and which is unconstructive.
unquote
So for me a smart selfishness is basing your goals and actions on things that create the best chances for optimum results. So this means mental, social, financial wellbeing. This also means understanding the complexities of life and what really makes people happy.
So although a selfish goal may be for example "to have people respect me" i can approach this goal a smart way or a dumb way. I can either try and make people respect me through force for example (dumb) or i could do it through actions that help other people (ie be community minded). So they both have the same ultimate goal but one leaves less destruction and infact adds to life, more than the other.
Parenting i recon is similar. A good parent is smart selfish which in a way can mean deliberately selfless or knowingly selfless in order to gain more love and respect either immediately or down the track. A bad parent is dumb slefish. This could mean creating dependance, manipulation, lack of foresight etc etc...
So a smart parent imo cultivates inner thoughts like "my children are only mine for a short time, its a privilege to be a parent, children have free will all i can do is steer them in the right direction, i love watching my children grow up etc etc'. A smart selfish parent may also realise that by depending too much on a child for support in our later years may mean that we are less motivated to work on our relationships NOW. My mother for example never remarried after divorcing my dad. Maybe she got a bit lazy and now she is a little lonely. As i get older a smart selfish person should imo conitnue to take responisility for my own happiness.
Sure i would love support financially and emotionally from my children but this would be an 'unwise focus"
A stupid selfish person would probably do the opposite of above.
It would seem to me one way makes life easier and happier than the other.
cheers
aussie
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
@tylerr
I reckon there is no right or wrong wiht the decision to have children - but i do reckon you need to get the thought process right because in that way you wont have guilt.
If you blame the world being screwed and focus on the negative aspects of having children then to me you are trying to convince yourself - when deep down you are maybe still unsure. Truth is people are living longer than thay ever have. We also have not seen a major war for 60 or 70 years so comparitvely speaking we have had peacefull times. Our last depression was 80-90 years ago. Even the poorest people have access to things most of us didnt have in the 1960's.
But here is the scoop - since the apes (or adam and Eve) a certain proportion of humanity have not reproduced. You you are not ribinson carusoe. There is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to have children. People have decided against having kids forever and there are plenty of great reasons.
I seriously reckon that people who decide against kids face the same problems and prejudices of other minority groups. If you arent like everyone else then you are strange. And that is not fair. It gets down to respect and acceptance of decisions which are highly personal. It should be no ones interest (except your own and maybe your spouse) and that should be enuf..
cheers
aussie
I reckon there is no right or wrong wiht the decision to have children - but i do reckon you need to get the thought process right because in that way you wont have guilt.
If you blame the world being screwed and focus on the negative aspects of having children then to me you are trying to convince yourself - when deep down you are maybe still unsure. Truth is people are living longer than thay ever have. We also have not seen a major war for 60 or 70 years so comparitvely speaking we have had peacefull times. Our last depression was 80-90 years ago. Even the poorest people have access to things most of us didnt have in the 1960's.
But here is the scoop - since the apes (or adam and Eve) a certain proportion of humanity have not reproduced. You you are not ribinson carusoe. There is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to have children. People have decided against having kids forever and there are plenty of great reasons.
I seriously reckon that people who decide against kids face the same problems and prejudices of other minority groups. If you arent like everyone else then you are strange. And that is not fair. It gets down to respect and acceptance of decisions which are highly personal. It should be no ones interest (except your own and maybe your spouse) and that should be enuf..
cheers
aussie