I'm really struggling with this right now. Most of our friends and family members think we are WAY too extreme, and like most Feelers, I feel a tremendous amount of pressure to "fit in," in this case by maintaining a similar standard of living to the people I love and admire. I know this will sound silly to some of you Thinkers, but spending money in order to fall in line with the people around me is one of the ways I express approval of, and affection for, those people and their choices and their lives.
It isn't even a conscious thing usually, which is why the urge to do it is so easily exploited by loved ones and marketing execs: you're identifying with a group when you spend like them, and doing so increases your odds (and your children's odds if you're a parent) of acceptance, and - if you're really emotionally disturbed - of obtaining things like love and intimacy. It also diminishes the odds of ridicule, judgment and exclusion, all of which are an anathema to Feelers.
This is so true for some of us (me) that being extremely frugal in the face of a peer group that isn't sometimes feels morally wrong. It feels like I'm judging those around me and condemning myself to similar judgment at the same time. I don't particularly enjoy spending money and when I'm left the hell alone to think about it, I'm pleased with our family's frugality. But I dislike - almost violently - feeling left out, or feeling looked down upon by people whose respect I crave. It takes gut-level restraint for me NOT to go out to a restaurant with my coworkers when I'd prefer their company to eating alone, even if they're going someplace I DETEST for lunch and the leftovers I brought are delicious. And while I don't give a flying **** whether people I don't know talk about me behind my back for my financial choices, the thought of my parents doing so (and they do) is physically painful.
Does anyone else here struggle with these feelings? And, if so, how do you cope?
How to stop caring what other people think, when that's how you're wired
I do some eccentric things. Once you get the reputation of oddball, you can get away with doing things differently. Also, you can play the role of immigrant if that fits you, everyone knows immigrants are strange and do not have to conform.
Sometimes when you are being coerced into playing a certain role which you would rather not play, you can act out another role that is more acceptable to you. The real solution is to be in command of your behavior without having to play a role but not many people are strong enough to do this.
Sometimes when you are being coerced into playing a certain role which you would rather not play, you can act out another role that is more acceptable to you. The real solution is to be in command of your behavior without having to play a role but not many people are strong enough to do this.
I'm similar to Sky, because my family has always been different I'm used to being talked about for it, so I don't really know what it's like to fit in. When I was young I saw other children trying to be "it" and I never understood it.
I don't believe there is such a thing as "normal". And what a boring world it would be if we were.
You don't need to be normal to be respected
If people want to talk about me behind my back, or worry about me so be it, they're that way inclined. I think that's their problem, and they'll get over it. Tomorrow they'll have something else to talk or worry about. They live their lives, you live yours.
Somebody once told me, don't worry about what others think about you, you'd be surprised how little they really do think about you. (or words to the effect)
One of my goals is to have character, I think it comes from people who are real, eccentric and who accept what they are.
I find when people comment about my frugality, it helps to make a joke out of it, it encourages other people to joke about it, and laugh about themselves.
I don't believe there is such a thing as "normal". And what a boring world it would be if we were.
You don't need to be normal to be respected
If people want to talk about me behind my back, or worry about me so be it, they're that way inclined. I think that's their problem, and they'll get over it. Tomorrow they'll have something else to talk or worry about. They live their lives, you live yours.
Somebody once told me, don't worry about what others think about you, you'd be surprised how little they really do think about you. (or words to the effect)
One of my goals is to have character, I think it comes from people who are real, eccentric and who accept what they are.
I find when people comment about my frugality, it helps to make a joke out of it, it encourages other people to joke about it, and laugh about themselves.
This is tricky. I'm wired the complete opposite. I take not caring what people think to an extreme. It is this way with friends, family, colleagues, everyone. Now don't get me wrong, I don't intentionally hurt people, but my lack of concern for what others think in regards to how I live my life comes across abrasive at times. Regardless of how you are wired, we all have a finite amount of time to enjoy living. It would be a waste to live it on anyones terms, but our own.
If you need to spend a little more to feel accepted, do it. However, I would ask yourself what is most valuable to you and your family? You obviously live frugally for a reason. Is that reason a stronger/lesser value to fitting in? As with all values you eventually run into a conflict. What do you value most and why? No one can tell you to continue being frugal if it comes at the cost of your happiness. On the other hand, no one can tell you or make you feel that you should be less frugal to be accepted and if they do then it is only b/c you have given your consent for them to do so.
Ask yourself what is most important to you and your family and stuggle not so much with a quick answer, but the question itself.
Best wishes.
If you need to spend a little more to feel accepted, do it. However, I would ask yourself what is most valuable to you and your family? You obviously live frugally for a reason. Is that reason a stronger/lesser value to fitting in? As with all values you eventually run into a conflict. What do you value most and why? No one can tell you to continue being frugal if it comes at the cost of your happiness. On the other hand, no one can tell you or make you feel that you should be less frugal to be accepted and if they do then it is only b/c you have given your consent for them to do so.
Ask yourself what is most important to you and your family and stuggle not so much with a quick answer, but the question itself.
Best wishes.
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BeyondtheWrap
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:38 pm
- Location: NYC
I agree with sky on being eccentric. It's a place to be if you can justify anything you do with, "It's ok, I'm just weird." Getting to that place might be tricky though.
I personally do like going out to eat, even though it costs more. So the way I handle that is to just budget a certain amount of money for fun, entertainment, etc. so that it doesn't get out of hand. You can go out with them at least some of the time and not have it destroy your hopes of ERE.
I personally do like going out to eat, even though it costs more. So the way I handle that is to just budget a certain amount of money for fun, entertainment, etc. so that it doesn't get out of hand. You can go out with them at least some of the time and not have it destroy your hopes of ERE.
Conflicting desires are tricky. Each and every one of us is swayed in different ways and in different directions by what others think. Some of us wish to fit in and be accepted. Others want the opposite and relish their status as the outsider. One way or another, all of us care - to some extent.
Having a clear hierarchy of goals is key to minimizing the trouble caused by your conflicting desires. You want to please your parents and you want to be frugal. When push comes to shove, which is more important?
Being conscious of the relative importance of certain choices helps you to make them without feeling overwhelming internal backlash. That doesn't mean it won't bother you when your parents speak critically of your decisions. You will. It just means you will accept their criticism as the cost of being your own person and living by your rules, not theirs.
So, the next time you are faced with a conflicting choice - I want to go out with my friend but I also want the future benefits of my frugality - decide which WANT is greater.
Having a clear hierarchy of goals is key to minimizing the trouble caused by your conflicting desires. You want to please your parents and you want to be frugal. When push comes to shove, which is more important?
Being conscious of the relative importance of certain choices helps you to make them without feeling overwhelming internal backlash. That doesn't mean it won't bother you when your parents speak critically of your decisions. You will. It just means you will accept their criticism as the cost of being your own person and living by your rules, not theirs.
So, the next time you are faced with a conflicting choice - I want to go out with my friend but I also want the future benefits of my frugality - decide which WANT is greater.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
I gotta say the level of self awareness in this thread especially by Gandk and FFJ is amazing.
As a wierd INTJ my intial reaction is to say grow some balls why do you care what these people think anyway? Surely real friends or people that really respect you will see past these superficial things and like you for who you are..
But having lived my life like this I have started to change my ideas. I am actually a little sick of being percieved as being wierd. Its tiring and maybe a better way (more mature and less heartbreaking) is to compromise more than i am used to. Being lonely and ostracised is not good for mental health. I do have some great relationships but the issue is as someone who is considered wierd, these relationships can be volatile, especially if a feel i am not being understood...then i drop out for a while and recharge..
So the question is how much to compromise?
I think you can be frugal but also be smart on when to splurge a little.
Always be generous with presents and gifts and do go for dinner when you can. But behind close doors be frugal.
Its an interesting topic and as i said brilliantly broached.
cheers
aussie
As a wierd INTJ my intial reaction is to say grow some balls why do you care what these people think anyway? Surely real friends or people that really respect you will see past these superficial things and like you for who you are..
But having lived my life like this I have started to change my ideas. I am actually a little sick of being percieved as being wierd. Its tiring and maybe a better way (more mature and less heartbreaking) is to compromise more than i am used to. Being lonely and ostracised is not good for mental health. I do have some great relationships but the issue is as someone who is considered wierd, these relationships can be volatile, especially if a feel i am not being understood...then i drop out for a while and recharge..
So the question is how much to compromise?
I think you can be frugal but also be smart on when to splurge a little.
Always be generous with presents and gifts and do go for dinner when you can. But behind close doors be frugal.
Its an interesting topic and as i said brilliantly broached.
cheers
aussie
If you absolutely must care what people close to you think (and I doubt this is something you can change easily, if at all), then maybe you should get close to people who share your goals and ideals.
I've got a (feeler) friend who is always complaining that her coworkers go out to expensive restaurants for birthdays, etc. I tell her not to go, or not to order anything. I don't think it'll ever happen... the social pressure is just too great (and there's additional aspect of trying to fit in at work, where fitting in can mean the difference between a promotion and none)
I've got a (feeler) friend who is always complaining that her coworkers go out to expensive restaurants for birthdays, etc. I tell her not to go, or not to order anything. I don't think it'll ever happen... the social pressure is just too great (and there's additional aspect of trying to fit in at work, where fitting in can mean the difference between a promotion and none)
Even non-feelers think about how people perceive them. We go out for drinks after weekly hockey and people drink beer. I don't like beer or to drink after playing a physical sport so I don't. I'm also gluten free so there isn't much I can order. We go in a large group so there's pressure to consume. I would avoid this for a while and order water. Sometimes I order nachos. But when I don't there's always a comment made and I'm expected to tip for my water? Makes me wonder just a bit, because people do know I'm frugal, but would prefer to label me as cheap. It can't really be avoided.
Trying to rationalize my 1) gluten intolerance 2) lack of cheese experiment to figure out if I'm intolerant and 3) lack of desire to dehydrate myself further, is just a huge amount of talk wasted on people who'll roll their eyes.
It's hard to convince other people of anything that requires more than just a simple sentence, bullet point or rule of thumb. To keep things straight in their head, I'm labelled "cheap." Whatever I guess. It's sad, but that's just part of life I guess.
I haven't managed to find anyone else nearby who shares my values, but I do enjoy team sports such as hockey and baseball so I park my comments to be part of the team.
I'm learning to button up more on facebook and in person regarding debates. While I like learning, sharing ideas and debating, other people feel threatened and alienated. People don't like different and when you express a different idea, they feel like you're talking smack about THEM. Keep that in mind.
I've often wondered if INTJs should use their mind power to manipulate people. All people manipulate, most do it subconsciously, so why can't INJTs do it consciously? It's not our natural state...but might as well work on it a bit more. Then we can have the best of both worlds
Trying to rationalize my 1) gluten intolerance 2) lack of cheese experiment to figure out if I'm intolerant and 3) lack of desire to dehydrate myself further, is just a huge amount of talk wasted on people who'll roll their eyes.
It's hard to convince other people of anything that requires more than just a simple sentence, bullet point or rule of thumb. To keep things straight in their head, I'm labelled "cheap." Whatever I guess. It's sad, but that's just part of life I guess.
I haven't managed to find anyone else nearby who shares my values, but I do enjoy team sports such as hockey and baseball so I park my comments to be part of the team.
I'm learning to button up more on facebook and in person regarding debates. While I like learning, sharing ideas and debating, other people feel threatened and alienated. People don't like different and when you express a different idea, they feel like you're talking smack about THEM. Keep that in mind.
I've often wondered if INTJs should use their mind power to manipulate people. All people manipulate, most do it subconsciously, so why can't INJTs do it consciously? It's not our natural state...but might as well work on it a bit more. Then we can have the best of both worlds
This is a really good question for this group considering most will fall on the "to he'll with them" side...including me. I used to care more when I first started working, but over the years I become selective on my "required" work socialization. I go like every 3rd time & then make up a white lie or, as Chris L suggests, I consciously manipulate others. This gets me the required social points and makes me seem like I would go more often if I could. The one problem with this is it takes a lot of energy for an INTJ to be manipulative.
@aussierogue
I have gone the opposite and embraced the weird or eccentric in my private life (moderately at work). Though, I must admit I'm not quite as frugal as many on here, so my eccentricities are sometimes a bonus socially as it makes me interesting, but not too threatening as I'm not really extreme.
@aussierogue
I have gone the opposite and embraced the weird or eccentric in my private life (moderately at work). Though, I must admit I'm not quite as frugal as many on here, so my eccentricities are sometimes a bonus socially as it makes me interesting, but not too threatening as I'm not really extreme.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
Find a socially acceptable reason to be different and it might be easier. For instance, go on a fitness kick. You instantly have a reason to ride your bike to work and avoid going to restaurants. If you do join them for social outings, you have an excuse for bringing your own "healthy food" from home. Bonus points if you actually do improve your fitness.
I've been classified weird my whole life. I got over being concerned about it sometime in high school. You really do get a lot of slack when you're just accepted as different and thus not worth pressuring into doing normal things. This is probably not helpful advice for someone seeking to fit in though.
I've been classified weird my whole life. I got over being concerned about it sometime in high school. You really do get a lot of slack when you're just accepted as different and thus not worth pressuring into doing normal things. This is probably not helpful advice for someone seeking to fit in though.
GandK it's my opinion that ERE is an INTx idea, written by an INTj for INTxs. Take away any of those first three letters, and it's going to be a challenge. (J is useful too, but not nearly as important as I, N, and T.) Other personality types can pursue ERE if they want, but it's going to be hard for them.
One thing a lot of ERE pursuers seem to forget or ignore is that jacob made no sacrifices in his pursuit of ERE. He wasn't giving up things he wanted now for some goal in the future. He just didn't want those things.
As an INTj I *like* being contrarian, weird, indepedent, and different. I didn't choose to be that way to accomplish some goals like ERE. I chose goals like ERE because they fit well with the way I naturally am.
I don't think you should seek to change this aspect of yourself. I think you should embrace it!
My girlfriend is as frugal as many of the people on this forum, but she has goals that are more important to her than autonomy and freedom. She chose a career as a teacher where she makes almost no money, but she has an immense, direct, positive impact on the people around her. She swells with joy when the students tell her how much her effort means to them. And she doesn't bat an eye at the $6/hr paycheck. This job makes ERE impossible for her; but as a Feeler, it's where she belongs.
In summary, I think you should take the parts of ERE that work best for you, and discard the rest. Don't force an NT plan on an NF personality. I do hope you stick around though, GandK, your posts are some of my favorite on the forum.
One thing a lot of ERE pursuers seem to forget or ignore is that jacob made no sacrifices in his pursuit of ERE. He wasn't giving up things he wanted now for some goal in the future. He just didn't want those things.
As an INTj I *like* being contrarian, weird, indepedent, and different. I didn't choose to be that way to accomplish some goals like ERE. I chose goals like ERE because they fit well with the way I naturally am.
I don't think you should seek to change this aspect of yourself. I think you should embrace it!
My girlfriend is as frugal as many of the people on this forum, but she has goals that are more important to her than autonomy and freedom. She chose a career as a teacher where she makes almost no money, but she has an immense, direct, positive impact on the people around her. She swells with joy when the students tell her how much her effort means to them. And she doesn't bat an eye at the $6/hr paycheck. This job makes ERE impossible for her; but as a Feeler, it's where she belongs.
In summary, I think you should take the parts of ERE that work best for you, and discard the rest. Don't force an NT plan on an NF personality. I do hope you stick around though, GandK, your posts are some of my favorite on the forum.
This is a topic I'm quite passionate about.
It concerns me that we are becoming less acceptive of unusual behaviour. As a child of someone who often exhibited behaviour which one wouldn't expect, but was never threatening, I always found others reactions the most interesting, Do they call the police, say hello etc. Quite different reactions.
If we are unable to live a life based on frugaility because of the need to fit in, what hope is there for those in our community who are different but harmless.
By sharing who we truly are, it encourages those around us to accept abnormaility and to be understanding.
In every classroom there is at least one child who exhibits abnormal behaviour, I would like to see us bring up our children to be understanding, rather than name calling etc. It can be done, but we adults need to demonstrate understanding by at least exhibiting our own abnormal but harmless behaviour.
Now I'll get of my soap box
It concerns me that we are becoming less acceptive of unusual behaviour. As a child of someone who often exhibited behaviour which one wouldn't expect, but was never threatening, I always found others reactions the most interesting, Do they call the police, say hello etc. Quite different reactions.
If we are unable to live a life based on frugaility because of the need to fit in, what hope is there for those in our community who are different but harmless.
By sharing who we truly are, it encourages those around us to accept abnormaility and to be understanding.
In every classroom there is at least one child who exhibits abnormal behaviour, I would like to see us bring up our children to be understanding, rather than name calling etc. It can be done, but we adults need to demonstrate understanding by at least exhibiting our own abnormal but harmless behaviour.
Now I'll get of my soap box
People at work thought I was weird because I don't own a car and I bike to work even when it's -10 degrees. So I bring up the environmental and health benefits, and they agree. They think I'm a hardcore fitness-addict and tree-hugger, not a guy that's retiring in 16 months.
I think you'll find that frugality, health, and the environment share a lot of common elements. If you do things manually, it's usually good for your health as well as wallet. If you buy less stuff, it's usually good for the environment as well as your wallet.
If you don't care about your health or the environment, you can fake it. I'm lucky, I guess, because I do care.
I think you'll find that frugality, health, and the environment share a lot of common elements. If you do things manually, it's usually good for your health as well as wallet. If you buy less stuff, it's usually good for the environment as well as your wallet.
If you don't care about your health or the environment, you can fake it. I'm lucky, I guess, because I do care.
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Freedom_2018
- Posts: 479
- Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:10 am
Was going to say something..but Akratic put it well.
Everyone need not be ERE...it is not a competition...maybe ER works well for you with some planning and budgeting.
I daresay that most on here are thinking ERE for 2 primary reasons...either really want to get on quickly to something/way of life that really attracts them instead of their 9-5...or..get away from something that has been a soul suck...often combo of the two.
Everyone need not be ERE...it is not a competition...maybe ER works well for you with some planning and budgeting.
I daresay that most on here are thinking ERE for 2 primary reasons...either really want to get on quickly to something/way of life that really attracts them instead of their 9-5...or..get away from something that has been a soul suck...often combo of the two.